Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by bobbyh64

Okay, I went overboard when I said that most of your reasons would probably be ridiculous, but I think the reason that "Leia was hotter" in the first film is strange. She's supposed to be some strong, regal character who also happens to be a princess. If you're saying she looks healthier in the film due to her being a drug addict and losing weight in the other two, okay. But that doesn't make the film better or worse. That would be like someone saying they like Star Wars better than Empire because they think Mark Hamill was better looking before his car accident.

In terms of the score, it's hard for me to decide which one I like better. Star Wars introduced a lot of the main iconic themes, but maybe the most iconic theme is The Imperial March, which made its debut in Empire. I also find Yoda's Theme to be one of the best in the franchise, as well as the love theme for Han and Leia.

I didn't mean for the "Leia was hotter" to be taken as seriously, but I can't deny my attraction either! Yes, that changes perception, I can't help it. It is like watching Wonder Woman TV show, yeah I liked it, but if Wonder Woman was a hag I wouldn't exactly keep tuning in.

However, it is more than that. When I look at her being hotter it also goes into her performance. Her spunk and then leadership all the way back to the rebel command (complete with gown) had a certain panache that fell by the way side in every film since. She was flat out second rate in the sequels and that to me destroyed what was built. Strangely I like Han and Luke bumbling around, which is one more reason I think Empire is inferior. Han's character is changed so much, it just doesn't follow to me for reasons I have laid out before.

As for Mark Hamil looks wise, he actually had a pretty compelling story and his accident played well...till he started acting.

The Imperial March is iconic, Han and Leia theme, all that...but compared to the originals? The Imperial March on its best day doesn't stand up. You ask the average old man from a third world country he is going to be humming that Star Wars main theme.

Empire is a respectable film. It is a great sequel. It builds on what came before. But me scrambling to find that "despecialized" edition...hell no. Empire was greatly improved by the digital effects and I would never ever go back to the original, including the bug eyed emperor which always felt out of place even before Return of the Jedi. When you see Darth kneeling it just made me uncomfortable. While Darth was subservient to Tarkin, it made sense. #1 he is Peter effing Cushing, and #2 I always felt like Darth was the wise one anyway.

Empire is just full of melodrama which takes away from the fun factor. When Dante says that Empire ends on a downer and that is what makes it great, while I see his point, I have to respectfully disagree. It is precisely that reason that makes it inferior. The original Star Wars is an event. When they have the final fanfare, that is when it goes into the stratosphere of greatness. Even the sex appeal of that knowing glance with Leia is classic. I don't want to see that turning into a whiney Han that gets his feeling so hurt. The Han I know and love is a rascal that is every man for himself, and you just know that after he bangs the princess he is hitting the bricks. This is one thing that the Force Awakens gets right.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by octagon

She wasn't put in danger. She chose that danger. She chose to be part of the rebellion. The character we see in Empire is entirely consistent with the character we saw in Star Wars.

Well, with pants. Which was apparently an important change for some reason or another

People, it wasn't meant to be taken seriously. I thought she looked hotter in the white gown. Still do.

My point about the pants is that she is royalty and I am not buying that she would be back in the trenches.

I don't buy the Empire forming that kind of strength after having that Death Star blowing up, I don't buy that the rebels would be on the run, I don't buy that Han would have stuck around, and I sure don't buy Leia being in that snow base even if it did happen.

Rule what?

[Show spoiler]

The rebel base that is now safe. Her planet may have been destroyed, but that doesn't change that she is still royalty. Her knighting the fighters with medals is the indicator.

[WhySoBlu?]

Originally Posted by IndyMLVC

That's not what happened and I NEVER said that. She didn't die from complications from childbirth.

SHE. LOST. THE. WILL. TO. LIVE. She just gave birth to two kids and said "F&*% it. I have nothing to live for."
That makes a TON of sense.

You're wasting your time. It's what he does - he can't address what you wrote, so he makes up something ridiculous and responds to that instead. At this point, it's clear that this is intentional.

[A Sith Lord?]

Originally Posted by IndyMLVC

You're clearly not a parent. Nor a female.

No respectable, intelligent woman would choose some dude she wasn't even married to over her own children.

Here are the facts:

Padme was Queen of a planet that was taken hostage by invasion. She was manipulated into removing her biggest ally Chancellor Vallorum out of power and Palpatine rose.

She's balancing her political ambitions and her romance with Anakin. Their affair is a secret. The Jedi Council, some of the wisest minds in the universe, have not deduced that they're together. Nor do they know that she's pregnant with Anakin's child.

She's so far along into pregnancy that she's due any minute now. If you've been around pregnant women around this stage of pregnancy you know how emotionally irrational they can be over the simplest things.

Obi-Wan accused Anakin of slaughtering Jedi and murdering Younglings. She has no idea whats' going on, but she's sensing Anakin's behavior has been somewhat off.

She's present at the Chancellor's speech talking about the failed Jedi coupe on his life and office. She knows the Jedi aren't these evil people, so why is this all happening.

So through all of this, she's juggling: having witnessed the death of Democracy, the Jedi Order collapsing, her impending pregnancy due any day now, and her boyfriend on the verge of becoming evil. Whichever part of her life, whether personal, political, or professional was collapsing. It's not like she lost her Senate seat, she literally witnessed the demise of a free society. As she said it was "with thunderous applause". She saw the smoke at the Jedi Temple and had no idea what was going on other than Anakin acting erratic and vague.

When she gets to Mustafar, she's PLEADING to him. Come home to Naboo, we'll live in seclusion away from everything just raise the baby. She's not 100% convinced yet that he's far gone. It's only when she hears it from Anakin's own mouth that the emotional roller coaster is taking the nose dive. Anakin, the person she loved most in this universe, not only admits to wiping out the Jedi but he chokes her unconsciously.

When she wakes up, she has no idea if Anakin is alive or dead. Despite the negativity in front of her she remains positive telling Obi-Wan there's still good in him.

When she's having the baby, it emotionally and physically takes a toll on her. Factor in possibly Sidious draining her life through the Force and it makes perfect sense to me that she could die from a broken heart/losing the will the live.

Even the strongest of women can come crashing down. It's human nature.

[Caseyscott]

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

Empire is just full of melodrama which takes away from the fun factor. When Dante says that Empire ends on a downer and that is what makes it great, while I see his point, I have to respectfully disagree. It is precisely that reason that makes it inferior.

Of course it ends on a downer, it's the end of the second act

[WhySoBlu?]

Originally Posted by MasturB

When she's having the baby, it emotionally and physically takes a toll on her. Factor in possibly Sidious draining her life through the Force and it makes perfect sense to me that she could die from a broken heart/losing the will the live.

If Palpy was "draining her life through the Force" (of which, there is absolutely no indication onscreen, as far as I can recall,) then she clearly didn't die from a broken heart/losing the will to live.

Originally Posted by Caseyscott

Of course it ends on a downer, it's the end of the second act

Indeed. I don't know why that's all of sudden a concern or criticism for some people, but what are you going to do?


Besides, it only takes two words to definitively prove - once and for all - that Empire is superior to Star Wars: Imperial March.

[Show spoiler]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuJhRe7x0fc

[Show spoiler]

[cynatnite]

Originally Posted by MasturB

Here are the facts:

If you've been around pregnant women around this stage of pregnancy you know how emotionally irrational they can be over the simplest things.

Even the strongest of women can come crashing down. It's human nature.

And you almost had me convinced.

[A Sith Lord?]

Originally Posted by WhySoBlu?

If Palpy was "draining her life through the Force" (of which, there is absolutely no indication onscreen, as far as I can recall,) then she clearly didn't die from a broken heart/losing the will to live.

So even if there is no indication, my point still stands and yes it's possible she could have died from a broken heart.

Yoda was the wisest of them all, yet he could not even foresee the doings of the Sith until it was far too late.

Sidious was the most cunning of them all, and it's his own arrogance that lead to his defeat.

For you to say because she's so intelligent and strong that she wouldn't be brought to that level is ridiculous. (edit I don't remember who said that now but someone in this thread did)

[WhySoBlu?]

Originally Posted by MasturB

So even if there is no indication, my point still stands and yes it's possible she could have died from a broken heart.

What? If he was draining her life, then that's clearly what killed her, not "a broken heart." Of course, there's nothing in the movie that would suggest that he was doing that in the first place, so it really seems like people are grasping at straws trying to justify the lazy/sloppy writing/film making.

[A Sith Lord?]

Originally Posted by WhySoBlu?

What? If he was draining her life, then that's clearly what killed her, not "a broken heart." Of course, there's nothing in the movie that would suggest that he was doing that in the first place, so it really seems like people are grasping at straws trying to justify the lazy/sloppy writing/film making.

Ok, so discard the idea of Sidious draining her life.

Why is it difficult to think she could die of a broken heart?

She was already emotionally depressed. She had major physical pain done onto her with a force choke. Waking up she already has PTSD from the incident. Delivering a baby is one of the most strenuous physical things a human can do. She was betrayed by the one person she loves the most. Her life's work as a politician going down the toilet and she witnessed it first hand.

When you add up all the factors, why is it ridiculous to think that she could indeed DIE from broken heart syndrome?

[WhySoBlu?]

For starters, no one ever said anything about dying from a broken heart. In the movie, they say she lost the will to live.

Putting that aside, "Broken Heart Syndrome" (aka stress-induced cardiomyopathy) is a medical condition caused by stress that affects the heart. But we know from the medical droids that "Medically, she is completely healthy. For reasons we can't explain, we are losing her." and "We don't know why. She has lost the will to live." No mention of anything wrong with her heart. In fact, they go out of their way to say that she's completely healthy and that they couldn't explain why she was dying.

So when you add up all the factors, how could you not think it's ridiculous to suggest she died of broken heart syndrome?

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by MasturB

Ok, so discard the idea of Sidious draining her life.

Why is it difficult to think she could die of a broken heart?

She was already emotionally depressed. She had major physical pain done onto her with a force choke. Waking up she already has PTSD from the incident. Delivering a baby is one of the most strenuous physical things a human can do. She was betrayed by the one person she loves the most. Her life's work as a politician going down the toilet and she witnessed it first hand.

When you add up all the factors, why is it ridiculous to think that she could indeed DIE from broken heart syndrome?

People that rely on "the droid said so" logic have lost the plot. A flawed premise makes the whole house fall because of the poor foundation.

It isn't about the story that is told, it is about going after George Lucas prequels yet again.

For me, I found this part of the story to be a well told one, and in the end there isn't just one thing that causes Padme to die. A "broken heart" is only defined by pompous fools that think you can categorize a human condition.

When are in total agreement about Padme's loss of life and the reason thereof. But to explain this to a hater is a lesson in futility.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by IndyMLVC

That's not what happened and I NEVER said that. She didn't die from complications from childbirth.

SHE. LOST. THE. WILL. TO. LIVE. She just gave birth to two kids and said "F&*% it. I have nothing to live for."
That makes a TON of sense.

Actually I want to revisit this again because of a confused poster.

I never said that you said she died from complications. However, I am saying that complications from chidbirth can stem from a depressed stated that happens right after.

Sure she popped out a baby, but then she had an after effect from it that led to her death. The losing the will to live is just semantics at this point. She died for a myriad of reason and if one tries to nail it down to one thing like another poster did is again not understanding what a human being actually is, let alone the confines of the movie.

As another poster pointed out, she did marry Anakin as well. Padme most certainly didn't say "f*ck it" because of her struggling right up to the end. To judge someone because of a few moments after what she has been through is obscene.

I am discussing this with you because I hope you see the point. We don't have to agree, but Padme went through hell and back IMHO.

[Nicolawicz]

Originally Posted by kemcha

The issue regarding the prequels and the special edition films has simply been over-dramatic and made a bigger issue than it actually is.

So, do you support vandalism? Or do you think film history is not really a big issue?

[octagon]

Originally Posted by WhySoBlu?

For starters, no one ever said anything about dying from a broken heart. In the movie, they say she lost the will to live.

Putting that aside, "Broken Heart Syndrome" (aka stress-induced cardiomyopathy) is a medical condition caused by stress that affects the heart. But we know from the medical droids that "Medically, she is completely healthy. For reasons we can't explain, we are losing her." and "We don't know why. She has lost the will to live." No mention of anything wrong with her heart. In fact, they go out of their way to say that she's completely healthy and that they couldn't explain why she was dying.

So when you add up all the factors, how could you not think it's ridiculous to suggest she died of broken heart syndrome?

Exactly. This is Exhibit A in the case that this was just terrible writing.

In order to make Padme's death palatable we not only have to imagine all sorts of things that aren't on screen, we have to ignore what we are explicitly told on screen.

They're just droids. They don't understand this stuff.

Okay.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by MasturB

Ok, so discard the idea of Sidious draining her life.

Why is it difficult to think she could die of a broken heart?

Padme was a leader and a warrior. Having her 'lose the will to live' turned a pretty awesome character into a two-dimensional character that would have gotten laughed out of a Lifetime original movie.

And for what? What's the upside there? Cheap melodrama?

That's the problem with the losing the will to live bit.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by octagon

Exactly. This is Exhibit A in the case that this was just terrible writing.

In order to make Padme's death palatable we not only have to imagine all sorts of things that aren't on screen, we have to ignore what we are explicitly told on screen.

They're just droids. They don't understand this stuff.

Okay.

Wait, it is crazy that we have to use our brains? So when someone relies on technology to convey a human emotion they couldn't possibly be showing that the over reliance on tech or rigid thinking is what got them in trouble to begin with?

Actually I think the Sith and his deception is a plausible explanation for a lot of it. But alas I guess we have to be spoon fed answers to get to the conclusion that Padme died from a myriad of causes?

Originally Posted by Nicolawicz

So, do you support vandalism? Or do you think film history is not really a big issue?

Vandalism? George Lucas creation, it is his call. Don't like it, well there is always the bootlegs.

Until you have created the work, you have absolutely no say so. Sure you can cry about it, but in the end it was entirely his call. Fans seems to forget this concept.

Originally Posted by octagon

Padme was a leader and a warrior. Having her 'lose the will to live' turned a pretty awesome character into a two-dimensional character that would have gotten laughed out of a Lifetime original movie.

And for what? What's the upside there? Cheap melodrama?

That's the problem with the losing the will to live bit.

WOW so she has real human qualities and is finally sick of what is going on and that makes her 2 dimensional? Boy, the prequel haters are reaching far and wide.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

It isn't about the story that is told, it is about going after George Lucas prequels yet again.

Holy projection, Batman.

The people critical of this losing the will to live claptrap are the ones focusing on the story that was told.

The people defending that nonsense are the ones who want to focus on everything but the story we were actually told on screen.

What about Johnny Cash, they say.

Maybe Sidious was doing something diabolical off-screen, they say.

Ignore those droids, they say. Those aren't the droids you want to be listening to, they say.

It's a terrible scene based on a terrible choice. And the fact that the only way to make it seem a little less terrible is to ignore what we see and try to fill in the blanks with what we wish we saw only underscores just how terrible it really is.

[Nicolawicz]

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

Vandalism? George Lucas creation, it is his call. Don't like it, well there is always the bootlegs.

Until you have created the work, you have absolutely no say so. Sure you can cry about it, but in the end it was entirely his call. Fans seems to forget this concept.

Who "created" it can mean anything. Maybe it was "his call" to ruin Star Wars, but he didn't direct Empire and Jedi.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by octagon

Holy projection, Batman.

The people critical of this losing the will to live claptrap are the ones focusing on the story that was told.

The people defending that nonsense are the ones who want to focus on everything but the story we were actually told on screen.

What about Johnny Cash, they say.

Maybe Sidious was doing something diabolical off-screen, they say.

Ignore those droids, they say. Those aren't the droids you want to be listening to, they say.

It's a terrible scene based on a terrible choice. And the fact that the only way to make it seem a little less terrible is to ignore what we see and try to fill in the blanks with what we wish we saw only underscores just how terrible it really is.

Or you pay attention to the story that Padme had a bunch of stuff happen to her and she succumb to stress. Not exactly rocket science. I think the robot saying that there is nothing physically wrong with her is half the diagnosis. This underlines that a robot cannot predict the future anymore than people can.

I got it the first time I saw it. Matter of fact, until recently, I never saw anyone stressing over this. Seems pretty basic to me. Then again Johnny Cash seems so much more plausible of an explanation?

Originally Posted by Nicolawicz

Who "created" it can mean anything. Maybe it was "his call" to ruin Star Wars, but he didn't direct Empire and Jedi.

And? Does that make it cease to be Lucas film? He didn't make the costumes either. I am sure the carpenters would like their say... Lets have all of them decide...or how about we nod to the person that owned the property, well until recently.

George created it and controlled it, end of story. A director that is hired to help his vision has zero say so.