Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Riddler95]

Originally Posted by crissrudd4554

The 1993 LD mix for ANH was a remix although it was based largely on the original 1977 stereo mix. However some elements from the original mono mix were included such as extra rumble before the Stormtroopers evade the Tantive IV, bleeps from R2 at the start of the scene when Luke, Ben, and the droids find the slaughtered Jawas, and Chewbacca banging his hands on the trash compactor door. New sounds such as glass breaking in the detention cell scene were also added.

I remember reading something similar to this.

With the exception of the added sound effects, apparently the 1993 2.0 Surround Mix for Star Wars is the closest to the Theatrical Stereo Mix currently available on Home Video.

I love that 2.0 Surround Mix from 1993. There are things I like better about it when compared to the 2011 6.1 Mix.

[Riddler95]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

The THX Star Wars LD is from the stems. It is a remix that took elements from all three mixes (35MM, 70MM, mono).


The Empire & Jedi THX discs are home theater mixes from the magnetic 35MM printmasters.


They went back to the 70MM masters for the 5.1 remix for the Special Editions, and the DVDs were a Dolby Digital 5.1 Surround EX version of those.

Whereas Star Wars (1977) was given a brand new 6.1 Mix for the Blu-Ray, apparently the 6.1 Mixes created for the 2004 DVDs of The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi were the main source for Blu-Ray 6.1 Mixes.

Does the 5.1 Dolby Digital Mix on the 1997 LaserDisc of the Special Edition of Star Wars (1977) have clipping?

[aiman04]

Just curious, those who still hear the clippings, may I know what is your equipment?

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by crissrudd4554

Again I said the 1993 mix was a remix of the STEREO mix. I never specified which. The 70mm six track still counts as a stereo mix does it not??

No actually it doesn’t. The 35mm stereo mix is not the same as the 70mm 6 channel stereo mix.

If you claim that you meant them to be the same the entire time, than I will go with that. And also I will correct that error right now. The stereo elements of each mix are not the same and quoting both as if they are same is not correct. Both mixes were worked on at different times as you know from your quotes.

It is important we keep this separate.
I knew that the 35mm stereo came first, the 70mm 6 channel came second, and the mono came last which is why George Lucas claimed it to be the best version before our discussion ever took place. The fact that you have obviously learned a few things going along is fine (like George preferring that cut because it was the last one worked on).

With the work that Hairy_Hen has done, it is really cool, and preserving the original mixes is a nice touch, though the rebuild to me is like despecialized. I say get a hold of a 70mm film print and use that instead of lifting from a LD and other sources which are obviously tainted. The problem is that people like him are resource starved so you get the same problem as the despecialized project. And for a fan of wanting to hear what was originally heard in theater like myself, I will take what I can get.

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

The THX Star Wars LD is from the stems. It is a remix that took elements from all three mixes (35MM, 70MM, mono).

In summary cutting past all this there is a fundamental problem with both of these posts from the two separate posters.

The CAV Definitive edition laser discs were sourced from the 70mm SIX CHANNEL stereo mixes. The fact that it was remixed (added other effects) doesn’t change the fact that the main source is from that mix.

Obviously this means that any source that came before will have elements in the newer mixes (the 35mm stereo being the oldest).
It is simply not correct to claim that stereo is stereo as criss has said, or elements were taken from all 3 which implies some kind of hodge podge put together as PeterTHX has implied.

The CAV Definitive edition LD not only took the audio, but took the VISUAL from the 70mm (which is a 35mm blowup for even more confusion) source.
Hairy_Hen was able to restore the 70mm mix because he found out that the CAV LD’s had used the 70mm mix as a PRIMARY SOURCE.

As for all of this being “jerry springer”, nothing could be farther from the truth, PeterTHX and crissrudd4554 have been very respectful and I have tried to do the same in kind. A long discussion is not the same as what goes on with that show, though some see no difference because it is simply more words than a tweet.

The facts are that we should be learning from each other, and if anything I have stated is proven to be wrong I am all the happier for it. Because I would rather right that wrong than go on thinking that way and never know the truth!

xxxxxxxxxxxx

Originally Posted by Riddler95

I remember reading something similar to this.

With the exception of the added sound effects, apparently the 1993 2.0 Surround Mix for Star Wars is the closest to the Theatrical Stereo Mix currently available on Home Video.

I love that 2.0 Surround Mix from 1993. There are things I like better about it when compared to the 2011 6.1 Mix.

For the original movie absolutely. But to be clear again...it is most similar to the SIX CHANNEL mix. It goes quite well with 35 mm capture done recently.

[crissrudd4554]

@ElvisForever To be fair I was not sure off hand which stereo mix was the basis of the 1993 mix, until you and the links clarified at least, hence why I only referred to it as the 'stereo' mix which it is (you even referred to it as such in your post above). While I know both the 70mm and 35mm stereo mixes are not the same, the differences between them are marginally small when compared to the mono track.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by crissrudd4554

@ElvisForever To be fair I was not sure off hand which stereo mix was the basis of the 1993 mix, until you and the links clarified at least, hence why I only referred to it as the 'stereo' mix which it is (you even referred to it as such in your post above). While I know both the 70mm and 35mm stereo mixes are not the same, the differences between them are marginally small when compared to the mono track.

Fair enough.

While there are differences with actual dialog and such, I don't think 4 added extra channels is marginal.

Thankfully, us seeing eye to eye on all the nuances isn't important, what is important is that we are on the same page that Harry_Hen is the best we have so far.

Him using the LD and his knowledge is how we got what we got as accurate as it can be.

The "close the blast" doors line is like the storm trooper bump being louder later. I think it makes the storm troopers more goofy than they need to be. In the case of just open the blast doors, it makes Han more slippery and not just a product of the Storm Troopers idiocy.

The Mono mix is to me the first case of George taking things a little too far IMHO. I think I have made it clear even before we posted back and forth that the 70mm 6 channel mix is what I prefer. If stereo alone got mentioned, it didn't happen often at all.

[crissrudd4554]

I was mostly referring to content when I said marginally small but anyways..

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by crissrudd4554

I was mostly referring to content when I said marginally small but anyways..

Hey just a question. When there was debate about the 4.2 vs 5.1 and the discussion about baby boom, you really thought I was talking about dialogue mainly? What do you mean by "content"?

If you think the dialogue or sound effects changes were marginal, you need to study up. There were plenty of changes because they were different mixes as discussed.

The only reason I ever brought up the dialogue was to discern the mono and the 70mm 6 channel from the 35mm stereo.

[crissrudd4554]

I wasn't part of that discussion. I didn't enter the picture until I brought up that the 1993 mix was a remix. I elaborated on that and provided examples. As far as I'm concerned, I'm out on this discussion now.

I never said the two stereo mixes weren't different, I was just saying compared to the mono the list of differences between the two stereo is much smaller. And yes by content I mean dialogue and effects.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by crissrudd4554

I wasn't part of that discussion. I didn't enter the picture until I brought up that the 1993 mix was a remix. I elaborated on that and provided examples. As far as I'm concerned, I'm out on this discussion now.

If you wasn't part of that discussion, then I don't know why we were debating. I guess it was just miscommunication then. No problem. It was still educational even if it didn't accomplish much.

[crissrudd4554]

Ok, you said on countless occasions that you think the 1993 LD mix is one of the best presentations of the films original 70mm six track. Those posts seemed to imply that you were under the impression that the LD audio was just that, the 70mm six track. I was just pointing that additional effects were added to the mix which technically makes it a separate mix. Yes we've established that the base of the LD mix is the 70mm track but nonetheless they didn't simply just use the track as is, additional stuff was added. Capisce??

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by crissrudd4554

Ok, you said on countless occasions that you think the 1993 LD mix is one of the best presentations of the films original 70mm six track. Those posts seemed to imply that you were under the impression that the LD audio was just that, the 70mm six track. I was just pointing that additional effects were added to the mix which technically makes it a separate mix.

Countless??? Really?

Look, I didn't choose to talk about Hairy_Hen's work so I mentioned the LD as the best official way to get the soundtrack. I stand by that it is still the best representation for home media.

Yes we've established that the base of the LD mix is the 70mm track but nonetheless they didn't simply just use the track as is, additional stuff was added. Capisce??

Why are you saying this to me again? I understood it before you even posted. SOURCED, does not mean verbatim. Get that clear. No offense, but when you say you weren't part of that discussion, it seems you aren't even reading what I wrote to you. Here is a requote.

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

Criss,

You are not showing me anything I don't know.

What you misinderstand is that the CAV Laserdisc were folded to stereo matrix from the 70mm sound elements.

There was obviously remixing and additions. I showed you the quote, it is your choice if you read it or not.

Laserdisc were only in stereo matrixed until ac-3 encoding on the rf channel took hold.

Your idea of the LD's were based on the 35mm stereo sound is just wrong.

As for the mono, I am not sure why you quoted that?

[crissrudd4554]

I'm out because literally I'll be repeating myself now. I can't help it if every time you reply you seem to imply something else. My initial point was pointing out that the 1993 mix was a remix. There I go repeating myself. As far as me not reading, hey you implied at one point that when I said stereo I was referring to the 35mm track. Aside from the links I sourced I had made no reference to the 70mm or 35mm tracks. Maybe you should read for once. And if it means anything, fine I was part of the discussion.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by crissrudd4554

I'm out because literally I'll be repeating myself now. I can't help it if every time you reply you seem to imply something else. My initial point was pointing out that the 1993 mix was a remix. There I go repeating myself. As far as me not reading, hey you implied at one point that when I said stereo I was referring to the 35mm track. Aside from the links I sourced I had made no reference to the 70mm or 35mm tracks. Maybe you should read for once. And if it means anything, fine I was part of the discussion.

So we both made mistakes. Agree to disagree (actually we don't really disagree if you get down to it). I am betting that if we were hashing this out over a beer as opposed to reading words on a message board this would have been cleared in five minutes.

No hard feeling from my end. Thanks for your patience.

xxxxxxxxx

On a side note, does anyone else find this part of the links posted interesting?

http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/70m...arison/id/6501

I find it pretty amazing that there were people that took audio of each side of the theater back in the day. It is really an interesting read comparing the sources. Audience reaction is pretty hard to beat.

[crissrudd4554]

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

So we both made mistakes. Agree to disagree (actually we don't really disagree if you get down to it). I am betting that if we were hashing this out over a beer as opposed to reading words on a message board this would have been cleared in five minutes.

No hard feeling from my end. Thanks for your patience.

It's fine. No worries.

[Riddler95]

Originally Posted by Riddler95

I remember reading something similar to this.

With the exception of the added sound effects, apparently the 1993 2.0 Surround Mix for Star Wars is the closest to the Theatrical Stereo Mix currently available on Home Video.

I love that 2.0 Surround Mix from 1993. There are things I like better about it when compared to the 2011 6.1 Mix.

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

For the original movie absolutely. But to be clear again...it is most similar to the SIX CHANNEL mix. It goes quite well with 35 mm capture done recently.

That is what I meant by the Theatrical Stereo Mix, the 70MM 6-Track Stereo Mix. Just for the heck, last night I popped in my 2006 DVD of the Theatrical Cut of Star Wars (1977) and checked out a few scenes and was very surprised by how good the 1993 Mix still is.

Now the 1993 2.0 Surround Mixes of The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi were done differently right, weren't they just remixes created for the Definitive Collection?

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by Riddler95

That is what I meant by the Theatrical Stereo Mix, the 70MM 6-Track Stereo Mix. Just for the heck, last night I popped in my 2006 DVD of the Theatrical Cut of Star Wars (1977) and checked out a few scenes and was very surprised by how good the 1993 Mix still is.

Now the 1993 2.0 Surround Mixes of The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi were done differently right, weren't they just remixes created for the Definitive Collection?

I don't speak of Empire and Return as strongly. I like them better in special edition form (Jedi Rocks withstanding). Sorry I can't help much on that front.

As for Star Wars, the problem with the DVD mix is the same issue with the LD. They are "folded down" from the 70 mm 6 channel mix.

Thankfully this has been for the most part fixed by Hairy_Hen barring a complete re-discovery of the print, or Lucas giving up the master tapes.

[Riddler95]

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

I don't speak of Empire and Return as strongly. I like them better in special edition form (Jedi Rocks withstanding). Sorry I can't help much on that front.

As for Star Wars, the problem with the DVD mix is the same issue with the LD. They are "folded down" from the 70 mm 6 channel mix.

Thankfully this has been for the most part fixed by Hairy_Hen barring a complete re-discovery of the print, or Lucas giving up the master tapes.

I remember reading a few years ago that the 1993 2.0 Surround Mix for Star Wars was folded down from the 70MM 6-Track Stereo Mix. It still sounds great though.

But the 1993 2.0 Surround Mixes for The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi were remixes right? They were not sourced from the 70MM 6-Track Stereo Masters as what was done for Star Wars (1977) correct?

Which is better to listen to 1993 2.0 Surround Mixes in, Dolby Pro Logic, or Dolby Pro Logic II?

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

It is simply not correct to claim that stereo is stereo as criss has said, or elements were taken from all 3 which implies some kind of hodge podge put together as PeterTHX has implied.

I'm not implying. That's exactly what was done for the LaserDisc Star Wars Trilogy Definitive Collection. It's been documented and I confirmed it with the folks who mastered the discs back in the mid '90s.


On the video side the telecine was done by Lou Levinson, who watched the films projected before doing the transfers.


I miss the days where I could actually talk one-on-one with the people involved in the production of the LDs - and the heads of the respective video labels at the studios...but that was 20 years ago.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

I'm not implying. That's exactly what was done for the LaserDisc Star Wars Trilogy Definitive Collection.

Just so I am not confused. Are you saying that the LD is NOT primarily the 70 mm soundtrack?

The changes that were made to the soundtrack certainly don't support your view.

If you haven't looked at the last link I provided, you are certainly encouraged to do so.

p.s. Let me put it another way. Do you really think it makes sense to patch from the 35 mm sound source when it has the least information of the 3 mixes?