Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[BNex99]

Originally Posted by chrislong2

I think you've basically got it there in your first sentence. The UOT fans are a dying breed - literally...I don't mean to be morbid there, but it seems to me the people who are most ardent about the UOT are the ones that were the diehards 40 years ago or that grew up on it and to them for a very long time THAT was Star Wars. So any monkeying around with that is seen very skeptically - it's literally messing with people's childhoods etc. Nostalgia is a powerful thing and when one goes back and changes what you knew from your past it can really be hard to swallow.

While I totally get that and can sympathize to a degree, I'm not really in that boat. I'm a litttle younger and while I do remember the UOT, I barely saw them and certainly wasn't a diehard fan. I have watched Ep1-6 in numerical order (+ Rogue One between 3 and 4) on the SE blu's, and they look and sound great to me and when you watch them in order like that with the blu's (especially back-to-back or within a short timeframe like a week or two) one would be hard pressed not to acknowledge that many of the OT changes help them flow better with the feel of the prequels and make everything mesh better. And as a non-die hard that never really knew the UOT that well it doesn't really matter to me if Vader says "NO" or not. Most of the arguments to me seem just plain petty, but again I don't have that intense nostalgia factor with the OT that some might. I might not love "Jedi Rocks" for instance, but I have ZERO serious gripes about it. I don't care if there's a rock in front of R2 or not... And quite honestly some of the changes I've seen the UOT version of and definitely think the new is better (i.e. Celebration replacing the old song in ROTJ). But what most stood out to me when watching Eps1-6 in order is that they all flow reasonably well in terms of "feel" and even "look" (i.e. the color changes made for 4-6). The look and feel of the SE Eps4-6 help it match with Eps1-3. Now I get that if one isn't a fan of the prequels then that wouldn't be welcome. But if you're looking at the whole or do kind of like the prequels, then the SE versions on the blu's with the CGI and other additions (i.e. Jabba in ANH) make everything flow smoother and mesh better with each other as a bigger story arc - no small feat considering the prequels were done 20+ years later from the OT. So I do understand many of the changes and I have no problem with George having done them and the changes I don't understand I don't care enough to get worked up over in the slightest. I do agree though that the UOT should be made available (probably as it's own thing, separate from a complete set). It's one thing to make changes, but it's another to also not make the originals available in a reasonable form/way.

What does bother me is that the prequels downright contradict a few things in the OT (especially ANH) - and yeah, Jar Jar in TPM is annoying (but I'd take Jar Jar anyday over L3 in Solo...). But I don't think the prequels deserve nearly the level of hate that gets thrown their way. What DOES deserve a high level of criticism to me is what Disney has done with the new trilogy. Rogue One was great but Eps7&8 both hit me wrong and just came across as cash grabs and I went into it WANTING them to be great. But seriously if you try watching them after having just seen the OT (unaltered or not) - Ep7 is nothing more than an obviously completely recycled ANH with a complete different "feel" in dialogue from the 6 episodes that came before it and an obvious attempt to try to bring current social agendas/concerns into the SW universe (whether one likes that or not is irrelevant to my point which is that's it's very blatantly obvious). And TLJ oh my goodness...

What I don't understand is how many of the UOT Star Wars people also seem to like the new Disney trilogy (or at least reasonably like) and yet hate on the prequels which to me even with their flaws are lightyears better and more original than what Disney is doing. I don't get it AT ALL...

I was born in 1978 and grew up watching the original trilogy when they were still relatively recent, so take all this with a grain of salt.


For me, it's about more than nostalgia (though I'm sure that's part of it), and it's not just about new effects. It's also about the undoing of some very shrewd editing decisions. Whether it was cutting around the limitations of the technology or just normal pacing and story efficiency, the original versions of all three films are exceptionally well-edited.

Even though many of the altered or redone FX look "better," the rhythm of certain sequences is thrown off, particularly the trench run in ANH. The CGI ships move differently, but the timing of the cuts is essentially the same, so the scene doesn't flow as well as it did before.

As for the actual added scenes, I'd argue that pretty much every one of them is pointless:

- The Jabba scene in ANH is awful for reasons that have nothing to do with visual effects or character design. Jabba's behavior in the scene is completely inconsistent with how he's presented in ROTJ, the scene ruins the reveal of the Falcon, and it stops the movie dead right when the pace should be picking up.

- The extra bit with Biggs in the X-Wing hangar doesn't really work without the earlier scenes on Tatooine that stayed deleted, so it's also in the way.

- The extended Wampa stuff in TESB is absurd. The costume looks ridiculous, and it takes away some of the tension of the scene.

- The whole sequence of Vader flying to his Star Destroyer after the duel with Luke is another unnecessary pace-killer. And the shot of him walking down the ramp is so obviously an outtake from ROTJ that it's almost insulting.

- "Jedi Rocks" is complete, utter tone-deafness. It sounds nothing like anything else the band was playing, the scene demolishes the previously established atmosphere of Jabba's Palace, and it goes on forever.

- The extended celebration at the end just plays weirdly to me. The music here is at least more tolerable, but it still sounds sort of shoved in, and the rhythm feels out of sync when it cuts back to Endor.


As others have said, some of this, along with much of the prequels, probably sounded like a good idea on paper, but the execution is just sloppy. And by the Blu-ray releases, it all felt increasingly arbitrary, like Lucas was changing things just to change them.

And of course, that's his right. But as you pointed out, it wouldn't have been as big a deal if he had also allowed the original versions to co-exist in comparable quality. For film history's sake, if nothing else.


As for Disney's output so far - I enjoyed The Force Awakens, but I agree that when you strip away the nostalgia, it kind of falls apart in many ways. I like Rogue One once it gets through it's bumpy first hour, and Solo I enjoy precisely because it feels inessential, if that makes sense.

And I could write a couple more posts about why I love The Last Jedi and feel that Disney's acquisition of Lucasfilm might have been worth it for that film alone. (I'm not kidding; I think it's magnificent.)

I hope all that makes some kind of sense!

[Bobbyjoe766]

Originally Posted by chrislong2

I think you've basically got it there in your first sentence. The UOT fans are a dying breed - literally...I don't mean to be morbid there, but it seems to me the people who are most ardent about the UOT are the ones that were the diehards 40 years ago or that grew up on it and to them for a very long time THAT was Star Wars. So any monkeying around with that is seen very skeptically - it's literally messing with people's childhoods etc. Nostalgia is a powerful thing and when one goes back and changes what you knew from your past it can really be hard to swallow.

While I totally get that and can sympathize to a degree, I'm not really in that boat. I'm a litttle younger and while I do remember the UOT, I barely saw them and certainly wasn't a diehard fan. I have watched Ep1-6 in numerical order (+ Rogue One between 3 and 4) on the SE blu's, and they look and sound great to me and when you watch them in order like that with the blu's (especially back-to-back or within a short timeframe like a week or two) one would be hard pressed not to acknowledge that many of the OT changes help them flow better with the feel of the prequels and make everything mesh better. And as a non-die hard that never really knew the UOT that well it doesn't really matter to me if Vader says "NO" or not. Most of the arguments to me seem just plain petty, but again I don't have that intense nostalgia factor with the OT that some might. I might not love "Jedi Rocks" for instance, but I have ZERO serious gripes about it. I don't care if there's a rock in front of R2 or not... And quite honestly some of the changes I've seen the UOT version of and definitely think the new is better (i.e. Celebration replacing the old song in ROTJ). But what most stood out to me when watching Eps1-6 in order is that they all flow reasonably well in terms of "feel" and even "look" (i.e. the color changes made for 4-6). The look and feel of the SE Eps4-6 help it match with Eps1-3. Now I get that if one isn't a fan of the prequels then that wouldn't be welcome. But if you're looking at the whole or do kind of like the prequels, then the SE versions on the blu's with the CGI and other additions (i.e. Jabba in ANH) make everything flow smoother and mesh better with each other as a bigger story arc - no small feat considering the prequels were done 20+ years later from the OT. So I do understand many of the changes and I have no problem with George having done them and the changes I don't understand I don't care enough to get worked up over in the slightest. I do agree though that the UOT should be made available (probably as it's own thing, separate from a complete set). It's one thing to make changes, but it's another to also not make the originals available in a reasonable form/way.

What does bother me is that the prequels downright contradict a few things in the OT (especially ANH) - and yeah, Jar Jar in TPM is annoying (but I'd take Jar Jar anyday over L3 in Solo...). But I don't think the prequels deserve nearly the level of hate that gets thrown their way. What DOES deserve a high level of criticism to me is what Disney has done with the new trilogy. Rogue One was great but Eps7&8 both hit me wrong and just came across as cash grabs and I went into it WANTING them to be great. But seriously if you try watching them after having just seen the OT (unaltered or not) - Ep7 is nothing more than an obviously completely recycled ANH with a complete different "feel" in dialogue from the 6 episodes that came before it and an obvious attempt to try to bring current social agendas/concerns into the SW universe (whether one likes that or not is irrelevant to my point which is that's it's very blatantly obvious). And TLJ oh my goodness...

What I don't understand is how many of the UOT Star Wars people also seem to like the new Disney trilogy (or at least reasonably like) and yet hate on the prequels which to me even with their flaws are lightyears better and more original than what Disney is doing. I don't get it AT ALL...

Seeing the original cast back after so many years has a lot to do with it - even if the sequel trilogy isn't what it could have been (so far).

[kaden1108]

How about this. Disney should have no say in which version we all have to see in 4k. Instead they have a website where you keep what you want, remove what you don't, then they send the disc to you. You edit, they press it. From the slightest adjustments like blinking ewoks, to favorites such as removing jar jar entirely. Seems about the only fair solution if Disney still dosent realize what they're diving into.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

Agreed. I've bought Star Wars ever since the original VHS.

I really enjoyed 4K77 1.4. Really has a vibe to it as well.

As great of a job Harmy did with the 2004 source material, I just cannot stomach the inherent flaws of that 15 year old mess any longer.

Ditto. Some people swear by Harmy's work and that's fine, but using the 2004 transfers at their core means that they retain all of the problems of said transfers which is one of the reasons why I sold the Blu-ray set (years ago) in the first place.

[crissrudd4554]

“The fans who want the OUT are diehard fans in their 40’s who saw it theatrically”

I’m in my 20s and want the OUT. My first Trilogy set was the Faces set.

[Arawn]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

He knows somethin in the revised dialog..."Obi-Wan can no longer help him now." Or somethin somethin.

That's original dialogue.

Originally Posted by Dotpattern

Lucas' account of HOW Anakin was able to become a Force ghost doesn't negate Vader/Anakin having knowledge of the ability.

It's a totally different explanation, which negates any need for yours to even exist in the first place. Nor is there any canon source which claims "Vader researched". It's just something made up by people unaware of Lucas' stance.

Originally Posted by Dotpattern

It means that Vader saw Obi-Wan disappear during the duel, became aware of the ability, wanted to know how he was able to it, and began studying it. Makes sense to me, and since you can't provide anything that contradicts that, then that's logically what happened.

That does not follow. Appeal to ignorance is recognized as logical fallacy for a reason. And again, why would a Sith be studying the light side? Whatever happened to trying to figure out an equivalent dark side power?

Originally Posted by Dotpattern

The link I provided.

A link isn't a source. What "official canon source" are we talking about here? Come on, throw me a bone here. Movie, cartoon, book, comic, anything. You can do it!!

Originally Posted by Dotpattern

Nowhere does it say Vader/Anakin "did not" research Obi-Wan's ability to disappear during their duel.

Appeal to ignorance, proves nothing.

Originally Posted by Dotpattern

All it says is that only light side users are able to achieve becoming Force ghosts.

So much for "The information in that link actually contradicts the "it's a light side thing.""

[Dotpattern]

Originally Posted by Arawn

That's original dialogue.




It's a totally different explanation, which negates any need for yours to even exist in the first place. Nor is there any canon source which claims "Vader researched". It's just something made up by people unaware of Lucas' stance.



That does not follow. Appeal to ignorance is recognized as logical fallacy for a reason. And again, why would a Sith be studying the light side? Whatever happened to trying to figure out an equivalent dark side power?



A link isn't a source. What "official canon source" are we talking about here? Come on, throw me a bone here. Movie, cartoon, book, comic, anything. You can do it!!



Appeal to ignorance, proves nothing.



So much for "The information in that link actually contradicts the "it's a light side thing.""

You clearly don't understand that we're talking about 2 different things. You are continuing to try to prove that Vader could not have become a Force ghost because only "light side" users could do that, even though I've never said that.

I am saying there's no reason Vader couldn't have KNOWN about the ability.

And again, you've provided no source to contradict that.

[Hardback247]

Originally Posted by kaden1108

From the slightest adjustments like blinking ewoks, to favorites such as removing jar jar entirely.

You CAN'T remove Jar Jar entirely from The Phantom Menace. It's impossible.

[Arawn]

Originally Posted by Dotpattern

You are continuing to try to prove that Vader could not have become a Force ghost because only "light side" users could do that, even though I've never said that.

"The information in that link actually contradicts the "it's a light side thing.""

Originally Posted by Dotpattern

And again, you've provided no source to contradict that.

There's no source to contradict the idea that Vader and Yoda once made passionate love on a space station constructed entirely out of ramen noodles, so I guess that happened too.

Meanwhile, still waiting on the "Vader researched" source...

[Pulp Hero]

It just occurred to me that Disney has a glaring omission in these upcoming re-releases.

Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure and Ewoks: The Battle for Endor are missing. TFA, TLJ, R1, and Solo were just released over the last few years, but it's been 15 years since Fox's double feature DVD release of the two Ewoks movies.

[BNex99]

Originally Posted by Pulp Hero

It just occurred to me that Disney has a glaring omission in these upcoming re-releases.

Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure and Ewoks: The Battle for Endor are missing. TFA, TLJ, R1, and Solo were just released over the last few years, but it's been 15 years since Fox's double feature DVD release of the two Ewoks movies.

Maybe they're still evaluating where they would fit in with the overall current Star Wars strategy.

The funny thing is that those Ewok movies are probably the most "traditionally" Disney-esque Star Wars-related productions ever.

[kemcha]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

As much as I want the original version of any film, I greatly prefer the cg Yoda.
I remember seeing TPM in 1999 and thinking, WTF did they do to him?

I prefer the CGI Yoda as well. I never understood the hateful preoccupation with CGI. If the a studio or director can use CGI the right way so that it looks pretty well done, then I'm all for it. Lucasfilm (when George Lucas) still owned the studio, did a pretty damn good job on the CGI in the prequel films.

[AllOuttaBubbleGum]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

Disney edited out an after credit scene on Toy Story 2 so I wouldn't be surprised if they covered up Leia with a black box when she is in the slave outfit.

With ILM at their disposal, I see Disney opting for a hair dye-like approach; rather than reducing the amount of grey gradually, they'll alter Leia's bikini over the course of three or so successive iterations of ROTJ. Initially, sharp eyed viewers will think they're imagining things, with modesty protecting CGI fabric increasing by mere inches...until, finally, The Hutt Slayer will earn her title clad in "Princess Leia's Metal Pantsuit."

..

[Dotpattern]

Originally Posted by Arawn

"The information in that link actually contradicts the "it's a light side thing."

Meaning, as I've stated more than once, just because dark side users can't become Force ghosts, doesn't mean they aren't aware of their ability to do so.

Originally Posted by Arawn

Meanwhile, still waiting on the "Vader researched" source...

How would there be a source to something I made clear was speculation? You replied "he did not research" as though it couldn't possibly have happened. The burden of proof falls on you. But since you can't, and since we have no idea what Vader spent his time doing when he wasn't on screen, or between movies, then there's no reason he couldn't have.

[chrislong2]

Originally Posted by BNex99

I was born in 1978 and grew up watching the original trilogy when they were still relatively recent, so take all this with a grain of salt.

For me, it's about more than nostalgia (though I'm sure that's part of it), and it's not just about new effects. It's also about the undoing of some very shrewd editing decisions. Whether it was cutting around the limitations of the technology or just normal pacing and story efficiency, the original versions of all three films are exceptionally well-edited.

...

Yeah, I'm sure you're right that it's not just nostalgia but certainly must largely be because you were used to them a certain way. My major familiarity is only with the SE - I know I saw parts of the UOT back in the day, but I wasn't remotely familiar enough on any serious level. So when I watch the SE, none of those scene concerns you mentioned are even a remote concern of mine - I thought the SE was great and I would never even think to raise concerns like yours. For instance, I never thought the Jabba in ANH was out of place or that he acted so different or that it ruined the Falcon reveal. To me looking at the series as a whole, I actually like that Jabba doesn't just show up in ROTJ but that we get a bit of him in ANH as a foreshadowing of sorts. The rest I'm just indifferent on - they don't seem like they harm and in several cases seem to me like they maybe even help. Of your list, the only one I did wonder about is the Biggs stuff - it does seem out of place and I wondered about why it was there.

Anyway, I do agree that for film history (and also just out of respect for fans like you that grew up on the unaltered original) that the UOT should be released in as high of quality as the SE. It doesn't have to be included on a complete saga set if George wants the SE's to be what's most known and accepted. But having a separate release for the UOT seems like a no-brainer and huge money maker.

[BNex99]

Originally Posted by chrislong2

Yeah, I'm sure you're right that it's not just nostalgia but certainly must largely be because you were used to them a certain way. My major familiarity is only with the SE - I know I saw parts of the UOT back in the day, but I wasn't remotely familiar enough on any serious level. So when I watch the SE, none of those scene concerns you mentioned are even a remote concern of mine - I thought the SE was great and I would never even think to raise concerns like yours. For instance, I never thought the Jabba in ANH was out of place or that he acted so different or that it ruined the Falcon reveal. To me looking at the series as a whole, I actually like that Jabba doesn't just show up in ROTJ but that we get a bit of him in ANH as a foreshadowing of sorts. The rest I'm just indifferent on - they don't seem like they harm and in several cases seem to me like they maybe even help. Of your list, the only one I did wonder about is the Biggs stuff - it does seem out of place and I wondered about why it was there.

Anyway, I do agree that for film history (and also just out of respect for fans like you that grew up on the unaltered original) that the UOT should be released in as high of quality as the SE. It doesn't have to be included on a complete saga set if George wants the SE's to be what's most known and accepted. But having a separate release for the UOT seems like a no-brainer and huge money maker.

I read back over what I wrote, and I did ramble for a while; sorry. It was late, I guess.

Again, some of my disappointment is probably because I remember the films a certain way. But I'm also an editor, and a lot of what I mentioned are simply poor editing decisions.

But also, a lot of the additions (scenes and FX) just objectively stick out. It's sort of like when I hear an overzealous audio remix on an older film, even if I've never seen it before. It sounds "off" to me. For example, I never saw the Dirty Harry films until they came to DVD, and at least the first two contained numerous sound effects that were very obviously not from an early-70s movie. I just find that distracting.

I'm sure I've said this on here at some point (probably in this thread), but what it comes down to for me is that the UOT are three completed films that launched a pop culture phenomenon. Flaws and all, they are organic, whole creations that are representative of the state-of-the-art in filmmaking for their time.

The current versions are Frankensteined patchworks, representing a hodgepodge of different eras, different sensibilities, and different levels of filmmaking technology. The changes are so extensive and significant (and, in the case of some of the later revisions, random), that the movies feel messier than they need to.

For all those reasons, I feel that not allowing the choice to see the original versions is kind of disrespectful to all the artists who worked on them.

[Falaskan]

The internet is a powerful thing. I first saw Star Wars when I was 11 in 97 (the SE release) and didn’t know any better, but I fell in love with the magic instantly. I saw ESB next and then the UOT of ROTJ on vhs because I couldn’t wait.

Still I’m more in the UOT camp than not, and I ascribe that to internet backlash more than anything. So for people who say popular opinion means nothing to them, I normally assume they’re in denial.

[crissrudd4554]

I guess I was just blessed with a good eye and ear at a young age. I got my first Trilogy set when I was probably 4 (the Faces set) and saw the SE of ANH in theatres. Granted because it was so long ago and I was so young I don’t have much recollection of the experience. It’s possible I even got my first Trilogy AFTER that viewing. But anyways I ended up catching the SE’s through TV airings so by the time I was six I was fairly aware of the changes that were made. I had seen enough of the films through the Faces set that certain scenes stuck out that seeing the altered versions caught my attention. Even before I got my own SE set I had borrowed one from someone at one point and saw the featurettes discussing the changes. No I did not fast forward through them. Even on the Faces tapes I sat through the Maltin/Lucas interviews. I can’t swear I knew what they were talking about but I let it play out before the movie started! However the SE featurettes were at least descriptive and visual enough that even at six years old I was already grasping an idea that history had been changed. The films that adorned my first Trilogy set were no more and these altered versions were what was left. Kinda a sad realization to make even then.

[Bobbyjoe766]

I turned five in 1977. I didn’t see STAR WARS until it premiered on television in 1982. I missed Empire on its release, but did see Jedi in late 1983.

I grew up with the original, unaltered versions on television (one cinema screening) and pan & scan videotape. I didn’t get to see all three films in widescreen until they were reissued on VHS in 1995.

I will not buy another home video release unless it contains the original edits, completely restored.

[shinobipopcorn]

Originally Posted by reason108

Is Rogue One and The Last Jedi the only SW films that have not been tinkered with on home video? Wasn't the only change to Force Awakens was an extended end credits sequence? Sorry, if these questions keep coming up again and again but I'm old now and probably won't live long enough to go back through and re-read all 3000 pages of this thread.

Honestly, we are so far along now in changes for each film that Disney should just allow us to order a custom blu-ray or 4k UHD, whatever, off a menu like at the restaurant. Personally, I don't like mayo, tomato nor onion, so please leave that off my sandwich. As much as I want the original theatrical, I don't mind some of those early changes. Some of them seemed to "improve" things somewhat. I really wish that Lucas had stopped with cleaning up the special effects (matte lines, etc), cleaning up the emperor`s appearance, etc and some minor other tweaks. Hell, even extending a scene or two here and there if it gives added value. But, some of the changes that were made once the prequels came out, was just...well, it really didn't make sense to me. Did Lucas want revenge because of the prequel backlash and decided to just change things to mess with people?

Hold up... there's an end credits sequence?