I've always had a problem with Empire...that's why I have it behind Attack of the Clones.
Make no mistake. In terms of production design, score, editing, acting, visual effects (aside from Revenge of the Sith), action, and direction, the Empire Strikes Back is the pinnacle of the Saga.
But...and this always been my "but" about it, the plot is pretty much dropped after the first 25 to 30 minutes and it focuses all on character from the rest of the film.
Now, that does make it unique in this genre but it's always rubbed me the wrong way. In contrast, Attack of the Clones lacks almost everything I've listed above that makes Empire so great, except for the plot. In this instance, Attack of the Clones (considering it's a mirror image of the Empire Strikes Back) balance character and plot through out the entire film. It's kind of astonishing, in a way. It goes back and forth between the two to drive the narrative to the climax. I've always wished the Empire Strikes Back was structured that way.
But, now with it being part of a Saga, it's uniqueness is even more interesting because it's the only one in the entire series that's all about character...that works.
I just have a love/hate relationship with that film. I was only two when it was released so the revelation at the end of the film was never the pivotal moment in my youth that many experienced. In a lot ways, I envy everyone who was of the right age to comprehend that revelation. And yet, not having been there, has made me feel like a different Star Wars fan. I wasn't old enough to let that film and that revelation warp my brain as to what a Star Wars film should be that a lot of the fanbase has.
I will always admire that film but I can never fully embrace it like I can with the other films in the Saga.
How is focusing on character even remotely a bad thing?
I'd take all six films with the latest improvements. I like the altered films as they look better to me, there is more to see in some scenes and this is how George Lucas intended them to look like.
1) Anakin and Padme magically fall in love after not seeing or speaking to each other for 10 years while his personality is comparable to a brick. Why?
If I saw my high-school sweetheart and she had the same personality as she did then you'd bet I'd fall in love with her again. It's been 20 years. She likes him.
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2) Padme's assassin using a poisonous worm to kill her rather than just dropping a bomb in the
window. Why?
Why does any assassin try to do something quietly? As shown in the opening scene, bombs don't always work as planned.
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3) The Jedi are overly efficient in all of their record keeping yet no one noticesthe planet of Kamino being deleted from the archives. Why?
Well, Obi-Wan did. You also never notice things until you're looking for them.
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5) Yoda sends all of the Jedi to Geonosis when there are more than enough Clones to do the job. Why?
The Jedi got there first, led by Windu. Yoda went to Kamino to get the clones, and wasn't sure they'd get there in time to save Obi & Anakin.
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6) Kenobi is defeated so quickly by Dooku. Why?
Because he's...better: older, more experienced, and gave Yoda a run for his money.
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There's plenty more, but that's the first few that pop in my head.
The plot holes are no bigger than any of the other films.
If I saw my high-school sweetheart and she had the same personality as she did then you'd bet I'd fall in love with her again. It's been 20 years. She likes him.
To me, that "romance" was forced and awkward. He was a little boy when they met. Despite that fact, he's somehow pined over her for 20 years, and she's now magically attracted to him, too.
Of course, I went off and married a chick I met when we were in 5th grade, but at least we were the same age when we met.
To me, that "romance" was forced and awkward. He was a little boy when they met. Despite that fact, he's somehow pined over her for 20 years, and she's now magically attracted to him, too.
It was about 10 years actually for them. He's good looking, has a great job, he's the guy who helped save her homeworld, and she likes talking to him. Girls have fallen in love both on screen and in reality for MUCH less.
BTW: I was saying it's been 20 years since I saw my HS girl (almost 22 to be exact).
It was about 10 years actually for them. He's good looking, has a great job, he's the guy who helped save her homeworld, and she likes talking to him. Girls have fallen in love both on screen and in reality for MUCH less.
BTW: I was saying it's been 20 years since I saw my HS girl (almost 22 to be exact).
Oh gotcha.
At any rate, you don't have to defend each and every criticism of the movie. Some of us don't like it, and haven't liked it for awhile.
If I saw my high-school sweetheart and she had the same personality as she did then you'd bet I'd fall in love with her again. It's been 20 years. She likes him.
Why does any assassin try to do something quietly? As shown in the opening scene, bombs don't always work as planned.
Well, Obi-Wan did. You also never notice things until you're looking for them.
The Jedi got there first, led by Windu. Yoda went to Kamino to get the clones, and wasn't sure they'd get there in time to save Obi & Anakin.
Because he's...better: older, more experienced, and gave Yoda a run for his money.
The plot holes are no bigger than any of the other films.
+1
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Originally Posted by O_V_N
To me, that "romance" was forced and awkward. He was a little boy when they met. Despite that fact, he's somehow pined over her for 20 years, and she's now magically attracted to him, too.
Of course, I went off and married a chick I met when we were in 5th grade, but at least we were the same age when we met.
As far as the romance, (ok, I'm a girl and call me corny, whatever), but I totally loved it! I mean when I found out THAT was why he turned to the dark side, I loved it even more. All for love! Love makes you do INSANE things! haha!
But seriously, the age difference is not that big of deal, I mean in TPM, wasn't she like in her late teens / early 20s. He's like what 10? We're talking like a 10 year differnce. And their meeting initially was completely innocent, she was nurturing to him. He just never forgot her and she even after they met again when older in TAOTC, she even said at one point - "Anni, is that you? You'll always be that young boy I knew on Tataoine" - obviously her mind was not even going there, and no clue what he was thinking. But hey, she had to acknowledge he became a man.
What's funny is that my friend married a guy 12 years her junior and she even said he's a "kid" was her expression when they first met. And we gave her a real hard time when they started dating saying he's too young, blah, blah, but they've been married 7 years now, and honestly I have to say he's been good for her. So there you go (sorry for the little OT).
As far as the romance, (ok, I'm a girl and call me corny, whatever), but I totally loved it! I mean when I found out THAT was why he turned to the dark side, I loved it even more. All for love! Love makes you do INSANE things! haha!
But seriously, the age difference is not that big of deal, I mean in TPM, wasn't she like in her late teens / early 20s. He's like what 10? We're talking like a 10 year differnce. And their meeting initially was completely innocent, she was nurturing to him. He just never forgot her and she even after they met again when older in TAOTC, she even said at one point - "Anni, is that you? You'll always be that young boy I knew on Tataoine" - obviously her mind was not even going there, and no clue what he was thinking. But hey, she had to acknowledge he became a man.
What's funny is that my friend married a guy 12 years her junior and she even said he's a "kid" was her expression when they first met. And we gave her a real hard time when they started dating saying he's too young, blah, blah, but they've been married 7 years now, and honestly I have to say he's been good for her. So there you go (sorry for the little OT).
In TPM, he was 9 and she was 14. They only have a 5 year age difference.
I have to say that if I was to rank them Clones would not be anywhere near the top.
In terms of FAVORITE, Yes I divide the trilogies because it is not fair to lump them together, they are on different levels.
OT, I rank as follows
1- Empire
I do this not because of the usual "it's the darker film. it's the character film, etc" I LOVE the movie because 1, it is the first in the series you actually get to see a Jedi being trained and you here some good lore about the Force. I loved that. I also really like Artoo better when 3PO is not around and he really shines in this movie. Then there is the outer space stuff, like the asteroid field chase, the giant worm in the rock, the star cluster, galaxy whatever it is they meet at the end, I love that this movie explores space so much more than the other two.
Then there is the AT-AT battle, awesome nothing came close to that awesome in the first one for me, remember by the time I watched Star Wars I was already entreneched weekly into GI Joe, Transformers, Gobots, He-Man and other big action cartoons so the level of impact Star Wars had was lesser on me. Plus growing up we were poor, we never got to rent movies often, we didn't have cable and we did not own a single movie on tape, they were still expensive back then and my parents were always torn between getting beta or vhs so they didn't even buy a VCR until I was like 8 years old.
Having said that, it means they only chance I had to watch any of the films was their once a year showing on TV, and Jedi and Star Wars came on all the time, but Empire was elusive, the first time it came on network TV when I was old enough to watch it, it aired the same time slot as Miss America, I live in a house full of girls and am the only boy, we had 1 TV, guess what we watched that night, not Empire Strikes Back. Son until I was 10 years old I had seen 1 and 3 (of that saga) so many times but never seen the middle movie, so when I watched it the first time it blew my mind. And that has always stuck with me.
2- Star Wars (A New Hope)
I rank this number 2 in the OT because i watched it a lot growing up and while I always loved Star Wars, say what you will but to me this one looked fake, like it was rushed the effects were not mind blowing as people had said, but again I had been watching movies with better effects the whole time so this one did not impact me as much as like my parents had been.
Also as much as I liked it I wore it out. Once we finally got a VCR, late 87 or early 88 I think it was, videos were still expensive so and our local video store sucked so I had just 2 movies I would rent over and over, Star Wars, and Ghostbusters. And so I wore it out, I got tired of watching it, until the SE theatrical release which I loved because for me it was the first time I got to see it in theaters. But because it was the first and had some great moments I ranked it a notch above Jedi. A tiny notch.
3- Return of the Jedi
I had similar story with this as with Empire, we got out VCR and the parents got a free weekend of HBO and went on a movie recording spree and this movie just happened to come on one weekend, we recorded it at the end of a tape with other movies on it, to save space, and the movie cuts off right when Vader turns Lukes saber on, so I missed the ending for a lot of years. So I developed a massive desire to just see the ending, I thought Star Wars was so awesome this movie had to have the perfect ending. And years latter I get the trilogy on VHS the SE boxed Set the gold ones, anyways I FINALLY at 15 years old get to FIRST see the ending to Jedi, and I was so disappointed! NOT because of the Ewoks but because it just fell apart. And because I wanted more, the whole time as a kid I could never get enough Star Wars ever, and so I had to see more, the movie just ended and left things open. I was so angry until I heard he was making the prequels which I fell in love with 1 at a time.
New Trilogy
I rank simple, based on what I liked and did not like about them.
1- PhantomMenace
This was the first BRAND NEW Star Wars film I ever watched in a theater and after years of just wanting anything new, as a kid I watched the cartoons, read the books, played video games just to get more into SW, and so when this came out it was a dream come true. I didn't even wait for the movie I bought the book a week early and blew through that faster than I ever read any book ever. And I loved it, every minute of it finally a movie whose Special effects lived up to all the hype, my favorite scenes was the droid battle at the end, pure awesome. Only thing I did not like was Jar Jar started to get annoying towards the end and I thought the podrace crap dragged on.
Second time I watched it Jar Jar got more annoying and I gradually went from liking the character to hating everything about him. He lost all his charm by the 3rd viewing.
Story great amazing, not rushed drew you in when I left the theater I was so depressed I would have to wait 3 more years to see the next film I want on a SW binge I bought every thing that I could get, the pepsi cans, the comic books toys, trading cards, i was like obsessed, I bought EVERY video game now even the lame ones because I could not get enough.
2- Revenge-
Why, Kicked ass but it was not as cool as TPM, I think what did it in for me was Padme really sucked in that movie I hated her horrible acting and that was about it that drew the film down for me.
3- Clones
I liked it first viewing but the whole time something was off, I never could figure it out, was it the pacing, the acting, the dialog, the story what the hell was it? Then I figured it out, my sister watched a movie called "A Life as a House" and ever since then I can not to this day watch Attack of the Clones.
As far as the complete Saga it would be complicated to entermix them but if I did it today I would rank them as follows
but if I could rank ANYTHING above clones I would, non-saga stuff I enjoy the Family Guys stuff far more than I do Attack of the Clones. And I blame my sister for ruining it for me.
I know it's cool to say that Empire is your favourite - and it is a terrific film - but it lacks the fun factor of the original Star Wars. Actually, all the others lack that infectious sense of fun because they're all tied into the 'Saga'. Which leads me to my next point...
I enjoy Episode 4 greatly as a standalone movie too, as no matter what tosh Lucas likes to spout about having a grand plan, Star Wars works perfectly well as a one-shot deal.
Yea, this is also exactly where I stand on them too.
Now my ratings of the movies are really extreme, but IMPO here goes-
100 - Star Wars (1977)
085 - The Empire Strikes Back
030 - The Return of the Jedi
020 - The PhantomMenace 020 - Attack of the Clones 020 - Revenge of the Sith
And the ONLY reason that I would put RotJ ahead of the PQs, is because of its use of live sets and models, but I believe that RotJ has the worse acted out lines of dialog, right from the very first sentence all the way through to its ending.
And the ONLY reason that I would put RotJ ahead of the PQs, is because of its use of live sets and models, but I believe that RotJ has the worse acted out lines of dialog, right from the very first sentence all the way through to its ending.
"Command station, code clearance blue."
While there may have been more sets, the prequel trilogy actually used more models than any films in ILM history. I always love the complaints about the CG when a LOT of the shots used actual filmed elements.
After ROTS ILM's model unit became Kerner Optical (after ILM moved to the Presidio) and is still used by ILM for modelwork, most recently in Iron Man 2.
I can understand not liking the story, the acting, or whatever but to dis the movie because it had amazing special effects, no matter how they were made, is silly.
While there may have been more sets, the prequel trilogy actually used more models than any films in ILM history. I always love the complaints about the CG when a LOT of the shots used actual filmed elements.
After ROTS ILM's model unit became Kerner Optical (after ILM moved to the Presidio) and is still used by ILM for modelwork, most recently in Iron Man 2.
Yeah, I find that hilarious as well. I just read the Cinefex article on the making of visual effects of AOTC again, and was amazed how many miniatures they used.
I bet if people hadn't seen any making ofs, they wouldn't even know what's what, and they still don't know.
I remember seeing TPM with my mum and she thought Jar Jar was a guy in a suit. That says it all.
If I really, really had to chose an order, It'd be:
AH, I can't. They are all different, and that's what I love about them, because each of them has something unique about it!
While there may have been more sets, the prequel trilogy actually used more models than any films in ILM history. I always love the complaints about the CG when a LOT of the shots used actual filmed elements.
How were the models used? Were they just used so the artists could render them, make computer models of them, etc.? Were they used in any filming at all?
By the way, do you have a source for your comment? I would like to read more about it.
While the PTs look really cool with the CG, I still prefer the more "real" feel to the OTs.
How were the models used? Were they just used so the artists could render them, make computer models of them, etc.? Were they used in any filming at all?
By the way, do you have a source for your comment? I would like to read more about it.
While the PTs look really cool with the CG, I still prefer the more "real" feel to the OTs.
Another great example of models in modern cinema is Starship Troopers. Most of the shots in space were done with green screen and models.
How were the models used? Were they just used so the artists could render them, make computer models of them, etc.? Were they used in any filming at all?
By the way, do you have a source for your comment? I would like to read more about it.
While the PTs look really cool with the CG, I still prefer the more "real" feel to the OTs.
Source: making-ofs on the PT DVDs, Cinefex, numerous articles and interviews with ILM staff over the years, etc.
Examples would be ROTS: Padme's cruiser, the lava canyon, Utapatu crater, numerous buildings on Coruscant...
AOTC: The Jedi hall and Kamino interiors, the Geonosis arena, more Coruscant buildings...
TPM: Naboo cruiser and fighters, Naboo city, Droid tanks, Federation starship, podrace arena, etc.
They also did sculpts of the CG characters for scanning/modeling + stand-ins on sets (lighting reference).
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Originally Posted by HD Goofnut
Another great example of models in modern cinema is Starship Troopers. Most of the shots in space were done with green screen and models.
Indeed, and ILM did several shots/sequences (race at the moon, drydock launch, fleet at the space station, etc). Other sequences were done by Sony Pictures Imageworks and Boss Film (their last show before closing up shop).
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Love makes you do INSANE things! haha!
They are all different, and that's what I love about them, because each of them has something unique about it! 
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