Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Gaius Marius]

Originally Posted by JamesKurtovich

I think the OP or a mod edits the first post of this thread with news as well so it might be a good place to look for the latest on the release.

I'd like to know why the Jedi aren't allowed to marry or be with people. I mean, it just begs to be made into a romance novel (forbidden love in an exotic land during a tumultuous period) but aside from that.. I dunno. I guess that was changed when Luke re-founded the Jedi Order? He supposedly had a wife and Leia married Han in the books.

Isn't that what AtoC tried to do, but failed miserably

I get the feeling that the Jedi are sort of akin to the Church in the Middle Ages (more specifically the Knightly Orders). They have their own rules (forbidden to marry, poverty, etc...) and answer to no government per se. However, they hold great influence over the galaxy, and are used by groups to help in disputes. Like the Church, they would have to recruit from outside (no marrying, no kids) to bolster their ranks.

This is where the issue differs, though. With the Jedi, we are not talking lands or titles (which were inherited or could be gifted to someone) or fighting skills (which could be learned), we are talking mystical powers, which you can only use if you are born with the ability. If that ability is genetic (as the midichlorians infer), then not passing the genes down will force the Jedi to extinction (as many have posted).

I know many have mentioned recessive genes causing Jedi, which makes sense, but is gambling quite a bit with your Order's future. Either the Jedi married in secret, or they were masters of geneic manipulation and tampering (as is hinted with Anakin). Otherwise, their way of life would be unsustainable.

[Beast]

Why would their life be unsustainable? EVERY living being in the Star Wars Universe has midi-chlorians.

It doesn't take a Jedi to make a force sensitive child. Though the potential for more viable candidates likely does come from a Jedi offspring.

The Jedi Order has screening programs in place on all Republic Worlds that test children upon being born for their midi-chlorian ratings.

[IndefinentBlu]

Originally Posted by frogmort

If you are referring to Anakin and Padme, I would think that having secrets, and having to be sneaky is more the problem. If it was acceptable for them to be together, I don't think it would have turned out the way it did. The secrecy and sneaking around is what gave Palpatine leverage over Anakin.

Also anakin had a vision of padme dying, Palpatine new this and used it to his advantage by telling him about his master being able to stop people from dying, (which he did not know the secret) when he told mace that palpatine was the sith they were looking for, he started to remember what palpatine said that if he dies the secret dies with him that, is why he went to stop mace from killing palpatine. anakin was wrought with guilt over what happened to mace that he felt he had no other choice but to turn to the darkside not only cause he wanted to save padme but also cause the jedi would never understand what he had done that they would have stopped him from saving padme.

[Gaius Marius]

Originally Posted by Beast

Why would their life be unsustainable? EVERY living being in the Star Wars Universe has midi-chlorians.

It doesn't take a Jedi to make a force sensitive child. Though the potential for more viable candidates likely does come from a Jedi offspring.

The Jedi Order has screening programs in place on all Republic Worlds that test children upon being born for their midi-chlorian ratings.

It would be relying on chance. Or the Jedi could engage in selective breeding to obtain the proper levels of midi-chlorians.

I guess the vast amount of beings in the galaxy could improve to odds of force-sensitive children being born. However, it is still a chance, and the odds would be just as likely to not have force-sensitive children.

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by Beast

Why would their life be unsustainable? EVERY living being in the Star Wars Universe has midi-chlorians.

It doesn't take a Jedi to make a force sensitive child. Though the potential for more viable candidates likely does come from a Jedi offspring.

The Jedi Order has screening programs in place on all Republic Worlds that test children upon being born for their midi-chlorian ratings.

Shmi Skywalker didn't have a single bit of Force sensitivity, did she? She still gave birth to what could've been the most powerful Jedi we ever see in the 6 films, if it weren't for the machinations of Emperor Palpatine.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Well, while at one point my main beef was with the Midichlorians issue, that's not so much the point that I was making in my last post.

The issue that I was expressing in that post really has nothing to do with the midichlorian/biological issue that I brougt up previously. And it's not so much that I am hung up on family.... it's that the OT is hung up on family by way of Luke repeatedly emphasizing thoughout it that he wants to be a Jedi like his father, upon discovering that he has a sister who is also strong with the force, etc. Family is a running theme in the OT, with a lot of positive emphasis put on it, and at no point is it ever even hinted at that a Jedi having family was 'frowned up', much less forbidden, in the old republic. Then we get to the prequels, and it's this forbidden thing.

That's the point that I am making. In backtracking and trying to tell a backstory to the OT, a story that puts a lot of emphasis on the family of a Jedi-in-training (Luke), and then telling a story that forbids family, that is a contradiction in terms of the concept, if nothing else. Now, technically it can be argued that despite this, it is still possible for the events in the OT, as they exist, could still follow the events of the PT as they exist, and things could still happen this way, and yeah, they could, but again, it's still just a contradicition in themes and concepts. It just raises a lot of questions that could easily be avoided by way of not making having kids for a Jedi be a completely forbidden thing. Simply having other Jedi who are able to balance family life with Jedi life better, and having Anakin be in a position of letting his emotions get the better of him would have been more than sufficient, while not creating questions like the ones that we have here.

It's pretty clear that Lucas has the very barebones (and mostly superficial) basics of the PT mapped out when starting to write them, but then as it started to create the "filler", he didn't think a lot of those things out very well and just left a lot of things that may not be plotholes, but are certainly logic-holes.

I hear what you're saying about family, but you've got to remember that that theme is supposed to be approached differently in each set of movies. It's precisely because of the Jedi's strict tenets that they lose Anakin to the dark side. They're unable to help him deal with his love for the women in his life. The OT is all about embracing that love and, in the end, it's what saves the galaxy. Old habits die hard though, as Yoda still tries to keep Luke 100% Attachment Free! in Empire.

I've just been listening to the commentary for the original film, and it's refreshing to hear Lucas state that he didn't know where he was going with the prequels. In fact, there's some surprisingly honest contributions from many of those involved in the SW commentaries.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by Gaius Marius

It would be relying on chance. Or the Jedi could engage in selective breeding to obtain the proper levels of midi-chlorians.

I guess the vast amount of beings in the galaxy could improve to odds of force-sensitive children being born. However, it is still a chance, and the odds would be just as likely to not have force-sensitive children.

How is it a "Chance", when it's a trait of every living being? So the argument is pretty much flawed.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by Darth Anakin

Shmi Skywalker didn't have a single bit of Force sensitivity, did she? She still gave birth to what could've been the most powerful Jedi we ever see in the 6 films, if it weren't for the machinations of Emperor Palpatine.

Well, the suggestion is there that Anakin is a special case. A creation of Darth Plagueis.

[mcdaid72000]

Not sure if people know this, but Amazon has released what the covers will look like and I found what the box cover for the blu-ray box set looks like for "Star Wars: The Complete Saga looks like:

http://www.eclecticelectronics.net/w...on-blu-ray.png

http://joyhog.com/wp-content/uploads...u-ray-copy.png

I wish who ever has rights to this site upload this photos b/c I think this has been finalized

[IndefinentBlu]

When palpatine seduced anakin in rots he took his time.
He new what to say to anakin and he was not forceful at all, he did not threaten anakin.

YET

In rotj palpatine threatens luke to turn to the darkside, even threatening the lives of his friends there was no seducing him like he did to anakin. how could he expect luke to just give in against his will and turn you don't turn someone by threatening them. you turn them by convincing them that their way is the right way. luke was right palpatine's overconfidence was his weakness.

[frogmort]

Originally Posted by indefinentnj

Also anakin had a vision of padme dying, Palpatine new this and used it to his advantage by telling him about his master being able to stop people from dying, (which he did not know the secret) when he told mace that palpatine was the sith they were looking for, he started to remember what palpatine said that if he dies the secret dies with him that, is why he went to stop mace from killing palpatine. anakin was wrought with guilt over what happened to mace that he felt he had no other choice but to turn to the darkside not only cause he wanted to save padme but also cause the jedi would never understand what he had done that they would have stopped him from saving padme.

I always assumed that Palpatine planted the seed of these visions in Anakin to manipulate him. Also, if Anakin had never given in to the Emperor, there never would have been a problem with Padme.
Padme would not need to be saved from anything if Anakin had just been a good boy. She died of a broken heart because of the terrible things that Anakin did to try to save her, which caused the problem in the first place.
It's almost like the chicken and the egg, or the paradoxes of discussing time travel, only much more simple.

[GC13]

Originally Posted by JamesKurtovich

No, but seriously, how does having a loved one lead to the Dark Side? I assume the Jedi, in a sense, loved one another and had close friendships but I fail to see how ignoring the fact that losing a friend would be painful is avoiding the Dark Side.

It's not that it usually, or even often, leads to the Dark Side—it's that the chance existed and Yoda decided he didn't like the odds and was in the Jedi Order so long that he generally got his way. The EU is far harsher than the movies in portraying the stagnant and ineffectual practices of the Jedi Order (even without Traviss doing the writing).

[Geoff D]

Man, that 'dying of a broken heart' thing sucked balls. I appreciate what Lucas was trying to do (Palps lies to Vader about Padme, Vader lies to Palpy about Luke in Empire etc) but it's soooooo ****ing stupid.

Originally Posted by GC13

It's not that it usually, or even often, leads to the Dark Side—it's that the chance existed and Yoda decided he didn't like the odds and was in the Jedi Order so long that he generally got his way. The EU is far harsher than the movies in portraying the stagnant and ineffectual practices of the Jedi Order (even without Traviss doing the writing).

The Republic Commando books are AWESOME. Fact. And I love the little English idiosyncracies that Traviss drops in every now and again.

[GC13]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Man, that 'dying of a broken heart' thing sucked balls. I appreciate what Lucas was trying to do (Palps lies to Vader about Padme, Vader lies to Palpy about Luke in Empire etc) but it's soooooo ****ing stupid.

And I quote: "She's lost the will to live!?! What is your degree in, poetry? You sorry bunch of hippies... For God's sakes, don't use the billions of dollars of medical equipment around us, well why don't we just just all get on our knees and pray! We don't have knees you mother-****ers!"

It's sad that a third-tier Star Wars novel, Coruscant Nights (it's about a Jedi Knight working as a detective on Coruscant after Order 66...) had to retcon the cause of death to be a broken neck bone the scans somehow missed.

As for Traviss, it's not her skill at writing (something I couldn't judge even if I had bothered to read her books), it's what she chooses to write. She clearly has a problem with the Jedi and decided the He-Mandalorians were the proper warriors for the Star Wars universe, and she writes to that agenda ignoring established canon and characterization.

[Gaius Marius]

Originally Posted by Beast

How is it a "Chance", when it's a trait of every living being? So the argument is pretty much flawed.

All living things on Earth have DNA (and all eukaryotic cells have mitochondria to use the direct reference to midi-chlorians). Not all living things have the same genes or traits (such as the ability to fly or breath under water).

It is chance when a gene or trait appears in nature, and only successful traits get passed down to subsequent generations via breeding. This is a simplified version of Natural Selection. Thus, if a trait cannot be passed down (a chaste group of people with said ability), it will be based upon chance for said trait to appear again.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by GC13

As for Traviss, it's not her skill at writing (something I couldn't judge even if I had bothered to read her books), it's what she chooses to write. She clearly has a problem with the Jedi and decided the He-Mandalorians were the proper warriors for the Star Wars universe, and she writes to that agenda ignoring established canon and characterization.

I just find them to be thrilling reads, in or out of the 'proper' SW universe. All that 'Talifan' crap can be left at the door.

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by chip75

Perhaps it was frowned upon or even forbidden that two Jedi's should produce offspring? Due to the power the child might inherit the Jedi Order decided it would be better if nature's lottery (the Midi-chlorians) decide who would be bestowed with strong Force wielding powers.

Even taking away the attachment issues as well as the natural protective/preference instincts that might not be healthy to a Jedi relationship, the logical extension of a Jedi breeding program would be similar to the Bene Gesserit's. Take into account the maxim that absolute power corrupts absolutely and you have a recipe for a dark side Kwisatz Haderach... which is probably what Anakin is anyway. In between you have at least some sort of nobility/aristocracy system that is definitely more lent to the dark side than the Jedi's creed of service.

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by Gaius Marius

All living things on Earth have DNA (and all eukaryotic cells have mitochondria to use the direct reference to midi-chlorians). Not all living things have the same genes or traits (such as the ability to fly or breath under water).

It is chance when a gene or trait appears in nature, and only successful traits get passed down to subsequent generations via breeding. This is a simplified version of Natural Selection. Thus, if a trait cannot be passed down (a chaste group of people with said ability), it will be based upon chance for said trait to appear again.

"Jedi arts" like using a lightsaber, jumping super high, doing mind tricks and moving things through the air where size matters not, etc are clearly learned skills passed on through their apprenticeship model...

[Gaius Marius]

Originally Posted by Uxi

"Jedi arts" like using a lightsaber, jumping super high, doing mind tricks and moving things through the air where size matters not, etc are clearly learned skills passed on through their apprenticeship model...

Then why can't anyone do that given the proper instruction?

If all it took was training and hard work, then that would negate the whole "force sensitive" and the "Force runs strong in my family" ideas.

[IndefinentBlu]

Originally Posted by Imrahil2001

Minor point, but this is the second time I've seen you do this. It's not "he new". It's "he knew." They are homonyms, so I understand the confusion.

New - adjective referring to something fresh, just invented, recently acquired, etc.
Knew - past tense of 'know'.

I'm not trying to be a smartass here; It's possible you don't speak English as a first language, so just trying to be helpful.

Sorry about that i sometimes forget to spell check before i post.