Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[al cos.]

Originally Posted by greg_achen

Rolling Stones 1999 Jar Jar Binks Cover Story

The link should serve as a reminder to everyone that Episode 1 was initially being received well by critics and fans alike, until it became the popular thing to hate on it.

That article was a promotional piece, before the finished movie was even seen.

[greg_achen]

Originally Posted by octagon

As it happens I did click on your link. And between the third and fourth paragraphs of that Rolling Stone article I found a link to the Rolling Stone review.

Hence the words 'Rolling Stone review linked to in that article'.

I thought I was pretty clear as to what I was talking about and where I found it.

Umm, sorry?

Fair enough. Though you have to admit, those first few lines in the Rolling Stones review are misleading because if you read the whole thing, the rest of it was pretty positive. The Rolling Stones review even has positive things to say about Jar Jar.

The closing paragraph states:

Your reaction to Phantom Menace will depend on what level you're watching it on, just like playing a video game. Beginners will log on, enjoy the surface thrills and shut down. Intermediates will play again to see what they missed. Experts will study plot details like they're cosmic tea leaves. In short, Lucas has changed the way we look at movies by making multiple viewings a part of the game. No wonder he's cashing in. This is not to doubt Lucas' sincerity in building a dream world – even a digital heart wants what it wants. Me, I'll take The Godfather when it comes to film franchises, but it's Lucas – still pushing the creative envelope at the dawn Èf the new millennium – who knows how to make audiences an offer they can't refuse.

[greg_achen]

That article was a promotional piece, before the finished movie was even seen.

Feel free to read the whole Rolling Stones review as well. It was by and large, positive.

[JoshKelhoffer]

Originally Posted by JamesKurtovich

I don't read reviews for Star Wars movies, although I recently watched all of the RLM reviews because they're hilarious. But I do know that within the first 10 minutes of TPM, I thought, "I have a bad feeling about this."

I actually thought the first 10 minutes of TPM were solid. It's when Qui Gon decides to jump ship, instead of doing his job and forcing a treaty, thus stopping the battle droids from the ship and saving the day, that it starts to get intolerable.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by JoshKelhoffer

I actually thought the first 10 minutes of TPM were solid. It's when Qui Gon decides to jump ship, instead of doing his job and forcing a treaty, thus stopping the battle droids from the ship and saving the day, that it starts to get intolerable.

What I don't understand from TPM is that the Senate send two Jedi's settle the conflict with the Trade Federation on behalf of the Supreme Chancellor and the Galactic Republic.

Why is it when the Jedi return after the destruction of their ship it's crew, narrowly escaping with their lives, rescuing Queen Amidala and witnessing an invasion of Naboo. Their testimonies pass no weight with the senate? Even though they were on a secret mission for the Chancellor. If you can't trust two Jedi Knights eyewitness accounts then who can you trust?

If they'd waited for an official delegation would they have sent more Jedi's with them?

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by greg_achen

You obviously did not even bother to click the link I posted and instead went to RottenTomatoes.com because I posted a link to the Rolling Stones article on Episode I, not their review which came later.

The first few lines of the article I posted are as follows:


Nice job on trying to make me sound like an idiot though.

So, this article was done before the film was reviewed? Dude, it is called 'promotion' and lots of movies do it to try and give the film a favorable view before release. Ya know, so that people actually would be enticed go see it. Rolling Stone would HAVE to do a article on TPM because it was the EVENT of the summer. Hell, I am certain Entertainment Weekly, US Today, Varitey and several other magazines had 'glowing' articles on TPM before release. Promotion does not tie into reviews.

I liked the Phantom Menace when it came out, and I still like it today (I feel the DVD and TV HD releases have been horrible though). But you are confusing promotion with critical reviews.

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by octagon

It took more than ten minutes for me. In fact, to be fair it was awfully freaking cool early on when the sabers ignited and all you could see were the two blades through the clouds of gas.

I don't think they lost me for good until about an hour into the pod race.

I thought it was pretty good when I first saw it (FN LOVED Qui Gonn stabbing the door with his light saber). If you view the film once, it is actually pretty good. I think the problem is it just doesn't hold up on repeat viewings is all. Small annoyances become BIG issues after a while. Same can probably be said of the OT too.

[rockin]

I don't mind TPM as much as some people do. After the 1997SE (which I didn't think was that bad in its changes), I was eager to see TPM. There was all the buzz with the teasers and trailers too, it was a big deal. I went to see it in one of the UCI cinemas where I lived, and thought it looked and sounded fantastic. Sure, there was some moments in it that were a bit subpar compared to the first 3 films, but overall I thought it did the job.

Obviously viewing it all again, it becomes more obvious how annoying Jar Jar's character is, but I always look beyond that. TPM was the last Star Wars movie on FILM, it was the last Star Wars movie to feature REAL sets and locations and it was the last Star Wars movie to have a GREAT villain. So for me personally, it's always going to be the 4th best Star Wars film of the lot. I like ROTS, but I was far more impressed with TPM. AOTC however I try to forget. I am hoping with the AOTC blu-ray they can pull something out the bag that may make the effects seem less cartoonish like on the DVD transfer, with seeing it in the extra resolution for the blu-ray.

Also, they HAVE to fix the lightsaber issue in the originals. I mean a green lightsaber in the falcon in ANH, Pink lightsaber for Vader in both ESB and ROTJ is a bit wrong.. I appreciate they were never perfect to begin with but there's no excuse leaving them in the worser state they are in now due to the color correction process that took place with the DVDs. Should be a simple fix for ILM to do for the blu-rays, no excuse not to...

[chip75]

Originally Posted by rockin

TPM was the last Star Wars movie on FILM, it was the last Star Wars movie to feature REAL sets and locations and it was the last Star Wars movie to have a GREAT villain.

Ep. II

Principal photography occurred between June 26, 2000 and September 20, 2000 at 20th Century Fox Studios in Australia. Location shooting took place in the Tunisian desert, at the Plaza de España in Seville, Spain, in Italy at the Villa del Balbianello on Lake Como, and in the former royal Palace of Caserta.

Ep.III

Although the first scene filmed was the final scene to appear in the film (shot during the filming of Attack of the Clones in 2000), principal photography on the film occurred from June 30, 2003 to September 17, 2003. The film was shot entirely on sound stages at Fox Studios Australia in Sydney, although practical environments were shot as background footage later to be composited into the film. These included the limestone mountains depicting Kashyyyk, which were filmed in Phuket, Thailand (they were later damaged by the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake and tsunami). The production company was also fortunate enough to be shooting at the same time that Mount Etna erupted in Italy. Camera crews were sent to the location to shoot several angles of the volcano that were later spliced into the background of the animatics and the final film version of the planet Mustafar.

Sometimes we forget AotC had some nice real locations as well.

[rockin]

Originally Posted by chip75

Ep. II



Ep.III



Sometimes we forget AotC had some nice real locations as well.

You're nitpicking.

1 or 2 scenes in the entire movie, isn't exactly the same as what was done with TPM is it? TPM is the last Star Wars film to be shot most similarly to the originals with more real locations used, as well as being shot on film, and also having a semi interesting villain - that's my point! and why I prefer it over the other two prequels.

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by Imrahil2001

I don't love the biological thing, but it makes sense given what he established in the OT. I was a kid during SW/ESB/Jedi (I remember speculating endlessly with friends about whether or not Vader was lying at the end of Empire), but I never, ever questioned the fact that Luke was somehow special for having Force abilities, when others didn't. It just never entered my (or any of my circle's) minds to think that all you had to do was attend Jedi night classes to be a Jedi.

That's been my argument all of these years yes, there is no way Luke had enough training from Old Ben and Yoda to be a fully trained Jedi Knight, at least not the likes of Anakin and Obi-Wan anyway.

[KubrickFan]

Originally Posted by rockin

You're nitpicking.

1 or 2 scenes in the entire movie, isn't exactly the same as what was done with TPM is it? TPM is the last Star Wars film to be shot most similarly to the originals with more real locations used, as well as being shot on film, and also having a semi interesting villain - that's my point! and why I prefer it over the other two prequels.

That's not nitpicking, that's telling the facts. If those facts don't back up the point you were trying to make, you should make your point differently.
Also, saying you like a movie better because it has location shooting, or was shot on film is really ridiculous.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by greg_achen

Though you have to admit, those first few lines in the Rolling Stones review are misleading because if you read the whole thing, the rest of it was pretty positive.

His overall conclusion is that the good outweighs the bad but I'm not sure you can describe a review that spends half its time talking about what's wrong with a movie as 'pretty positive'.

He basically said the actors weren't given anything interesting to say or do, the writing sucked, the director is good visually but not so much with people or words and Jake Lloyd, well he was only eight, cut him some slack but on the good side it looked really, really, really good and it was better than Jedi.

And that's from somebody who liked it.

Originally Posted by greg_achen

The Rolling Stones review even has positive things to say about Jar Jar.

Hmm, perhaps that whole 'they're always high over there' thing isn't just a stereotype held over from the sixties

[greg_achen]

Originally Posted by octagon

His overall conclusion is that the good outweighs the bad but I'm not sure you can describe a review that spends half its time talking about what's wrong with a movie as 'pretty positive'.

His criticism of TPM is more or less directed at the entire Saga, not TPM specifically.

More from the Rolling Stones review:

But Menace is light-years ahead of the uneasy mix of furry Ewoks and Freudian psychology in Richard Marquand's 1983 Return of the Jedi. As for Lucas' directing skills, his work with actors still belongs to the "Don't emote, just stand there" school. But in terms of visual sophistication, already discernible in 1973's American Graffiti, Lucas ranks with the masters. He has always been more articulate with images than with words. Harrison Ford, who played Han Solo in the original, has famously chided Lucas, "You can type this shit, George, but you sure can't say it."

[chip75]

Originally Posted by rockin

You're nitpicking.

1 or 2 scenes in the entire movie, isn't exactly the same as what was done with TPM is it? TPM is the last Star Wars film to be shot most similarly to the originals with more real locations used, as well as being shot on film, and also having a semi interesting villain - that's my point! and why I prefer it over the other two prequels.

Ep.I

Filming began on June 26, 1997 and ended on September 30 of that year, primarily taking place at Leavesden Film Studios in England, with additional location shooting in the Tunisian desert for the Tatooine scenes and the Italian Caserta Palace for the Theed City Naboo Palace interior. The city of Mos Espa was built in the desert outside Tozeur. On the night following the third day of shooting in Tozeur, an unexpected sandstorm destroyed many sets and props. With a quick rescheduling to allow for repairs, production was able to leave Tunisia on the exact day originally planned.

I wasn't trying to be nitpicky TPM didn't really have that much more location work than Ep.II. It may look slightly more filmic (been shot on film and having a nice grain) than the last two films but the principles that were started during the Indiana Jones Chronicles were continued and fine tuned through the prequels. There was probably a give and take between location shooting and studio work based on what was easier and cheaper to shoot. They were so good by the time Ep.III came along they didn't have to send the 1st Unit anywhere apart from the studio.

I prefer Ep.I over the other two as well it just feels more Star Warsy to me although the other have great effects and set pieces. You can't beat the magic that The Phantom Menace brought to the screen after the Saga's long absence....

[rockin]

Originally Posted by KubrickFan

That's not nitpicking, that's telling the facts. If those facts don't back up the point you were trying to make, you should make your point differently.
Also, saying you like a movie better because it has location shooting, or was shot on film is really ridiculous.

Err wtf ridiculous? It's my opinion and I can like a movie better for whatever reason I like - that's my entitlement of having my own opinion - I am not forcing my opinion on anyone. At least I have had the decency to explain my reasons for preferring the TPM than simply saying the others suck, like some people do.

And you clearly didn't read what I said. I was stating that I preferred TPM more not simply because it has more real locations, but because it felt more like the old Star Wars movies due to a number of different things.

What I was pointing out to chip was, that 1 or 2 real locations in AOTC and ROTS aren't enough for me personally, to make them feel like real Star Wars movies over the rest - mostly due to the fact it moved away from using real locations and more to the digital realm of filming with nearly doing everything blue and green screen. It feels more two dimensional and flat in my opinion. Maybe with the extra resolution on blu-rays or with this 3D conversion coming it will breath new life into them, but as they stand currently there isn't much in them for me personally that I thoroughly enjoy aside from one or two great sequences.

Originally Posted by chip75

Ep.I



I wasn't trying to be nitpicky TPM didn't really have that much more location work than Ep.II. It may look slightly more filmic (been shot on film and having a nice grain) than the last two films but the principles that were started during the Indiana Jones Chronicles were continued and fine tuned through the prequels. There was probably a give and take between location shooting and studio work based on what was easier and cheaper to shoot. They were so good by the time Ep.III came along they didn't have to send the 1st Unit anywhere apart from the studio.

I prefer Ep.I over the other two as well it just feels more Star Warsy to me although the other have great effects and set pieces. You can't beat the magic that The Phantom Menace brought to the screen after the Saga's long absence....

Thanks for explaining. I think we just misunderstood each other. I also agree with what you say about things being cheaper and easier with the digital process used in AOTC and ROTS - it certainly was more beneficial for George as the filmmaker.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by rockin

Thanks for explaining. I think we just misunderstood each other. I also agree with what you say about things being cheaper and easier with the digital process used in AOTC and ROTS - it certainly was more beneficial for George as the filmmaker.

No problem I took no offence or meant any. This thread has a lot of head butting (unlike the UK DVD of AotC) as these films mean a lot of things to a lot of people and each opinion counts as much as the next one.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by chip75

What I don't understand from TPM is that the Senate send two Jedi's settle the conflict with the Trade Federation on behalf of the Supreme Chancellor and the Galactic Republic.

Why is it when the Jedi return after the destruction of their ship it's crew, narrowly escaping with their lives, rescuing Queen Amidala and witnessing an invasion of Naboo. Their testimonies pass no weight with the senate? Even though they were on a secret mission for the Chancellor. If you can't trust two Jedi Knights eyewitness accounts then who can you trust?

If they'd waited for an official delegation would they have sent more Jedi's with them?

The whole point of the prequels is to show how rigid and bureaucratic the Republic had become. It's Valorum who sends the Jedi, not the Senate. He wouldn't even dare mention it in open session due to the machinations of the various guilds and whatnot, which would grind the process to a halt (which is of course exactly what happens when Amidala pleads her case). I guess there is such a thing as due process even in a galaxy far, far away.

And why not let the Jedi just speak to the Senate anyway, along with Amidala? The cat's outta the bag, right? Not quite. Because Valorum has side-stepped the usual formalities of the Republic by sending in the Jedi so early, he would be committing political suicide* by revealing his part in the proceedings. Remember that the Nemoidians and the Naboo are expecting mere 'ambassadors' from the Chancellor and not a couple of arse-kicking Jedi - which tells us that this isn't normal procedure. Even the all-powerful Sidious is surprised to hear that the Jedi have turned up.

On a side-note, it's such a shame that we didn't see more of Sir Terence Stamp. And I wonder if we'll finally see Adrian Dunbar's brief turn as Bale Organa (who was later retconned into Bale Antilles)?

Anyhoo, I totally agree with you about Phantom Menace BTW. It feels so old-school to me, having been shot on film, and in good ol' fashioned anamorphic no less. The film itself plays like a CG mash-up of Star Wars and Return Of The Jedi, which ain't a bad thang, no sir. And I'm expecting the BD version to banish the memories of the ultra-grainy EE hell of the DVD. Hell, you can even see the gate weave on the opening logos which shows how outdated that transfer actually is.


*He soon gets booted out anyway, but that's not the point.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by rockin

What I was pointing out to chip was, that 1 or 2 real locations in AOTC and ROTS aren't enough for me personally, to make them feel like real Star Wars movies over the rest - mostly due to the fact it moved away from using real locations and more to the digital realm of filming with nearly doing everything blue and green screen.

You mind telling me where I can visit the Hoth Rebel Base? What "location" did they use for Dagobah? Cloud City? Vader's Star Destroyer? The Asteroid? The Falcon?

AOTC had more real location photography than TESB, but by your "standard" Empire shouldn't qualify as a real Star Wars movie and Clones should.

[Geoff D]

Don't be so hard on the guy, I get what he means. Lucas even references this in the commentary for Sith when we look at the 'garden planet' of Felucia, saying that he's so pleased he can finally create all these outlandish worlds that he had in his head, instead of Norwegian glacier = Hoth, Californian forest = Endor, Tunisian desert = Tatooine and so on.