Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by og pooh

the thing is there's no difference between enhancing (not changing) special effects, cleaning up errors, working around former limitations, beefing up sound, etc, etc and actually changing effects, adding or altering scenes, etc, etc. Retouching the original is retouching the original, period. If a special effect didn't work the way gl would have liked (like the blob under the landspeeder)... Fixing that is no different than adding a scene he (for whatever reason) couldn't originally do. He now has the chance to make all six films the way he envisioned them without release deadlines looming over him. If that means fixing an effect, adding a scene or changing dialog, it's all the same. It's all altering the original.

Would it be nice to have unaltered copies on the bd release? Sure. But personally, i wouldn't actually watch them. Nostalgia is overrated. It's best off left as a memory. Right now, i want the best looking, best sounding, most cohesive saga possible. Wherher gl can deliver is another story.

damn skippy!!!

[Beast]

Originally Posted by Kinetic_Blue

Where exactly was the story changed?

Yeah, seems to be the exact same story. Regardless of tweaks and changes.

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by Beast

Yeah, seems to be the exact same story. Regardless of tweaks and changes.

I somehow cannot tell if you are being sarcastic or not....

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by Kinetic_Blue

I somehow cannot tell if you are being sarcastic or not....

Nah. I think he's being sincere.

I just want to be clear... I am not saying I agree with all the changes made up to this point. I am saying changing something is changing it, regardless of scope or specifics. If GL can make the story as a whole more cohesive, eliminate plot-holes, create more realistic characters, fix special effects, etc, etc, etc... Let him do it. Let him give us the saga he wants us to experience. I've already experienced it the way it originally came out... Believe me, it has issues.

[greg_achen]

Bottom Line: There is no reason why George Lucas shouldn't have made these Blu Rays the Ultimate Editions and included the UOT. This is coming from someone who PREFERS the Special Editions aside from Han shooting first, the Jabba Scene, Jedi Rocks, the beaked sarlacc pit, and the "alert my Star Destroyer" line. Having the UOT included wouldn't make anyone UNhappy. The Special Edition fans would have their preferred version and the UOT fans would have theirs. The arguments about which version is inferior is all subjective any way with no group's opinions being more right than the others, despite how unsophisticated or stupid both sides think the other one is. If it's a matter of cost, well, we already know these films are going to sell incredibly well, UOT included or not. The amount of money in restoring the UOT would probably only slightly cut into what is sure to be a substantial profit from this release. While George Lucas doesn't owe Star Wars fans anything, as someone who loves movies and from a completist standpoint, surely he could understand why people want the option of viewing the UOT. Are we all really that petty that we would want to deny someone's enjoyment of something we don't care for, especially when the alternative would make everyone happy?

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by greg_achen

Bottom Line: There is no reason why George Lucas shouldn't have made these Blu Rays the Ultimate Editions and included the UOT. This is coming from someone who PREFERS the Special Editions aside from Han shooting first, the Jabba Scene, Jedi Rocks, the beaked sarlacc pit, and the "alert my Star Destroyer" line. Having the UOT included wouldn't make anyone UNhappy. The Special Edition fans would have their preferred version and the UOT fans would have theirs. The arguments about which version is inferior is all subjective any way with no group's opinions being more right than the others, despite how unsophisticated or stupid both sides think the other one is. If it's a matter of cost, well, we already know these films are going to sell incredibly well, UOT included or not. The amount of money in restoring the UOT would probably only slightly cut into what is sure to be a substantial profit from this release. While George Lucas doesn't owe Star Wars fans anything, as someone who loves movies and from a completist standpoint, surely he could understand why people want the option of viewing the UOT. Are we all really that petty that we would want to deny someone's enjoyment of something we don't care for, especially when the alternative would make everyone happy?

I do not mind "Jedi Rocks" but it should also have Lapti Nek being played as well.

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by greg_achen

Bottom Line: ...Having the UOT included wouldn't make anyone UNhappy.

That's what I said (though not in so many words). I just added that I personally wouldn't watch the UOT.

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

That's what I said (though not in so many words). I just added that I personally wouldn't watch the UOT.

I was going to Watch all 6 in one sitting (yes, 2004 special editions) until i heard the BluRay versions were coming out.
I have decided to wait.
I'm havin a huge get together at my place on the 17th of September.
BluRay Star Wars, 7.1 sound system, pizza, chips, hot wings, drinks...it's gonna be a blast!

[Cook]

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Because to me, one change opens the floodgate. Altering anything (even if it's just to fix something) is altering it. Brining something up-to-date is bringing it up-to-date. Making it the way the director wanted it is making it the way he wanted it, regardless of whether it's a fixed blob under a landspeeder, a 7.1 mix or reintroducing a character the way he actually wanted him introduced. The principle is all the same... Altering an old work in order to make it more the way it was either intended to be or as good as it can be at this time.

There are people who hate the PT because it doesn't always jive properly with the OT. Maybe GL has simply decided the problem is with the OT, not the PT? After all, he wasn't (technologically or financially) capable of creating the OT the way he wanted it. People shouldn't get upset that the technically inferior films are the ones (mostly) being altered. I wonder if all the PT haters would take issue if GL made the PT Yoda a puppet?



No, there isn't a difference. Altering something is altering it. The specifics may be different. The reasosns may (or may not) be different. The principle is exactly the same... Changing the original work.

I am a fan of the SE but i have to argue a point. Adding lossless audio and cleaning the picture would be enhancing the original product as you are adding nothing new by doing that. Whereas adding a new scene and new introductions is altering the original product. I am a fan of all versions of Star Wars, but their is a difference in enhancing something and altering it. I can clean the mona lisa but if i slap a mustache on her im going to jail lol. In Star Wars case one change is a technnical aspect and the other is a story aspect. Most people myself included can enjoy the technical changes, but I imagine no one would be happy of Lucas replaced Han solo with Jar Jar Binks. Most people have problems with story changes. We can't be so quick to judge each other over what we each want from the films because at some point Lucas could do something to upset you too. Even if you accept they are his films and he can change them when something you love is changed it will irk you somewhat . Everyone has their button.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Ricshoe

If I had a choice, it would be to leave them alone and not change a thing, but that's not going to happen (and neither is simply cleaning them up a bit).

+1

I can live with many of the cosmetic changes to the OT but I would very much prefer the opportunity to do without them. I can see why people might prefer a CGIed Tattoine or Bespin or additional x-wings in the first death star attack but I don't. Those changes aren't bad exactly but they don't really work for me. I just find most of them distracting.

Nor am I particularly itching for additional audio channels. Lossless original audio would be just fine.

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by Cook

I am a fan of the SE but i have to argue a point. Adding lossless audio and cleaning the picture would be enhancing the original product as you are adding nothing new by doing that. Whereas adding a new scene and new introductions is altering the original product. I am a fan of all versions of Star Wars, but their is a difference in enhancing something and altering it. I can clean the mona lisa but if i slap a mustache on her im going to jail lol. In Star Wars case one change is a technnical aspect and the other is a story aspect. Most people myself included can enjoy the technical changes, but I imagine no one would be happy of Lucas replaced Han solo with Jar Jar Binks. Most people have problems with story changes. We can't be so quick to judge each other over what we each want from the films because at some point Lucas could do something to upset you too. Even if you accept they are his films and he can change them when something you love is changed it will irk you somewhat . Everyone has their button.

I am very willing to agree to disagree or to accept differences of opinion. To me, this isn't opinion or taste. Altering is altering. Like it or not, enhancing is altering too. The only thing I don't see as altering is restoring/preserving.

The original versions already exist, so altering is more than fine in my book... It's needed. Just keep unaltered copies for archival purposes. Preserve them, but don't touch them otherwise. Don't fix anything, don't change the audio, etc, etc. Do what must be done to restore them to original. Do what must be done to preserve them in their original state. Put them on the BD that way, but don't change ANYTHING. Some people want to draw their own lines... Usually at the points where they personally stop liking the changes. For me it's black & white, a firm line. Changing something is changing it, regardless of where anyone's personal line is drawn. Something is altered or it's not altered. Simple.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by greg_achen

Having the UOT included wouldn't make anyone UNhappy.

Other than George Lucas, who's the only person with an actual say in the matter.

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by octagon

+1

I can live with many of the cosmetic changes to the OT but I would very much prefer the opportunity to do without them. I can see why people might prefer a CGIed Tattoine or Bespin or additional x-wings in the first death star attack but I don't. Those changes aren't bad exactly but they don't really work for me. I just find most of them distracting.

Nor am I particularly itching for additional audio channels. Lossless original audio would be just fine.

Lossless MONO???
Are you joking????

[kamphausd1]

Originally Posted by Beast

Other than George Lucas, who's the only person with an actual say in the matter.

[JamesKurtovich]

Originally Posted by Kinetic_Blue

Where exactly was the story changed?

Characters are a big part of a story. When Lucas altered the Han/Greedo scene and added the new Jabba scene, it changed (albeit not in any dramatic way) their characters.

Han's character development suffers because it turns out he wasn't all that bad in the first place. He doesn't have much of a story in the SE's because his transformation is a lot less dramatic. His firing on Greedo made a strong statement and its removal was disappointing to say the least, especially for the Solo fans.

Jabba's introduction is totally botched, imo. It might be because I was introduced to SW through ROTJ, so Jabba was the ultimate bad guy to me. I was scared of him because he was a slimy monster who wanted to molest a very attractive Princess Leia who he had as his prisoner. His appearance in ANH, aside from looking terrible and providing us with no more information than the scene before it with Han and Greedo, is out of character. He seems like he isn't much of a bad guy either... apparently you can walk all over him!

I think it's out of place as it messes with the pacing a bit. I love seeing the Falcon for the first time when Luke exclaims, "What a piece of junk!"

The original dialogue in ESB that was replaced also gave us some insight to Darth Vader's character by letting the viewers know how he felt about being rejected by Luke.

The addition of Hayden at the end of ROTJ also tweaks the story. Before, Luke was able to look upon his father standing with Ben and Yoda. He could see that his father was able to become the man he should have been. Whereas in the SE's, Luke sees a younger version of his father (does he even recognize him?) standing with Ben and Yoda. I can understand both sides of the debate on this one but ultimately I prefer Shaw because that's who Luke knows as his father and Shaw's face was the last we ever see of Anakin Skywalker.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Kinetic_Blue

Lossless MONO???
Are you joking????

A) Most people didn't hear it because of the limits of most theaters in 77 but even Star Wars originally had a multichannel soundtrack.

B) As a rule I'm wary of remixing soundtracks. It's something I can usually live with but I'm not crazy about it.

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by JamesKurtovich

Characters are a big part of a story. When Lucas altered the Han/Greedo scene and added the new Jabba scene, it changed #1 (albeit not in any dramatic way) their characters.

#2 Han's character development suffers because it turns out he wasn't all that bad in the first place. He doesn't have much of a story in the SE's because his transformation is a lot less dramatic. His firing on Greedo made a strong statement and its removal was disappointing to say the least, especially for the Solo fans.

Jabba's introduction is totally botched, imo. It might be because I was introduced to SW through ROTJ, so #3 Jabba was the ultimate bad guy to me. I was scared of him because he was a slimy monster who wanted to molest a very attractive Princess Leia who he had as his prisoner. His appearance in ANH, aside from looking terrible and providing us with no more information than the scene before it with Han and Greedo, is out of character. He seems like he isn't much of a bad guy either... apparently you can walk all over him!

I think it's out of place as it messes with the pacing a bit. I love seeing the Falcon for the first time when #4 Luke exclaims, "What a piece of junk!"

The original dialogue in ESB that was replaced also gave us some insight to Darth Vader's character by letting the viewers know how he felt about being rejected by Luke.

The addition of Hayden at the end of ROTJ also tweaks the story. Before, Luke was able to look upon his father standing with Ben and Yoda. He could see that his father was able to become the man he should have been. Whereas in the SE's, Luke sees a younger version of his father #5 (does he even recognize him?) standing with Ben and Yoda. I can understand both sides of the debate on this one but ultimately I prefer Shaw because that's who Luke knows as his father and Shaw's face was the last we ever see of Anakin Skywalker.

#1 - Then what does it matter?
#2 - Han never was a "badass" if he was, he wouldn't have come back. He was P-Whipped. *Pfft* Some Badass...
#3 - Big Fat Slug vs The Emperor.... uh...
#4 - He still says that. And unless you've seen A New Hope before, you have no idea that that IS the Falcon
#5 - Yes

[Beast]

Originally Posted by JamesKurtovich

Characters are a big part of a story. When Lucas altered the Han/Greedo scene and added the new Jabba scene, it changed (albeit not in any dramatic way) their characters.

Han's character development suffers because it turns out he wasn't all that bad in the first place. He doesn't have much of a story in the SE's because his transformation is a lot less dramatic. His firing on Greedo made a strong statement and its removal was disappointing to say the least, especially for the Solo fans.

Doesn't change Han's character one iota. Since he probably could have sold them out to the imperials and made even more money than the transport job. So he clearly wasn't all that bad in the first place anyway. Blasting Greedo first or last doesn't alter his character at all.

Jabba's introduction is totally botched, imo. It might be because I was introduced to SW through ROTJ, so Jabba was the ultimate bad guy to me. I was scared of him because he was a slimy monster who wanted to molest a very attractive Princess Leia who he had as his prisoner. His appearance in ANH, aside from looking terrible and providing us with no more information than the scene before it with Han and Greedo, is out of character. He seems like he isn't much of a bad guy either... apparently you can walk all over him!

The SE version may not have looked great. But the DVD version of Jabba looks fine.
And there is information in the Han/Jabba scene not in the Han/Greedo one.

I think it's out of place as it messes with the pacing a bit. I love seeing the Falcon for the first time when Luke exclaims, "What a piece of junk!"

Except that you see the Falcon before Luke makes that comment anyway. As they're walking into the hanger.
So it doesn't change that scene either. The ship is revealed well before any comment from Luke.

The original dialogue in ESB that was replaced also gave us some insight to Darth Vader's character by letting the viewers know how he felt about being rejected by Luke.

Yet it also made no sense, that Vader wouldn't have a ship standing by on one of the landing platforms. And if he's waiting for a shuttle, he certainly gets to his Star Destroyer awful fast considering it's in pursuit of the Falcon out of the system.

The addition of Hayden at the end of ROTJ also tweaks the story. Before, Luke was able to look upon his father standing with Ben and Yoda. He could see that his father was able to become the man he should have been. Whereas in the SE's, Luke sees a younger version of his father (does he even recognize him?) standing with Ben and Yoda. I can understand both sides of the debate on this one but ultimately I prefer Shaw because that's who Luke knows as his father and Shaw's face was the last we ever see of Anakin Skywalker.

Doesn't change the story one iota. In fact, it actually fits the story better than "Humpty Dumpty" standing there. Especially if you go by both what Obi-Wan says about Anakin's fall. And Yoda's comments about the true nature of their beings. Anakin doesn't manifest as a corpse, so why should he be beholden to the limitations of the flesh. When Yoda makes it clear they're not. And besides, Luke doesn't know either ghost as his father. He never knew him outside of Darth vader except as the corpse he spends a few moments with before leaving the Death Star II.

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by octagon

A) Most people didn't hear it because of the limits of most theaters in 77 but even Star Wars originally had a multichannel soundtrack.

B) As a rule I'm wary of remixing soundtracks. It's something I can usually live with but I'm not crazy about it.

A New Hope did NOT have Multi-Channel Audio. Empire was the first.
Still though, if people want "That Original Theater Expierence" then they should have it by getting that MONO track!

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by Beast

Doesn't change Han's character one iota. Since he probably could have sold them out to the imperials and made even more money than the transport job. So he clearly wasn't all that bad in the first place anyway. Blasting Greedo first or last doesn't alter his character at all.

The SE version may not have looked great. But the DVD version of Jabba looks fine.
And there is information in the Han/Jabba scene not in the Han/Greedo one.

Except that you see the Falcon before Luke makes that comment anyway. As they're walking into the hanger.
So it doesn't change that scene either. The ship is revealed well before any comment from Luke.

Yet it also made no sense, that Vader wouldn't have a ship standing by on one of the landing platforms. And if he's waiting for a shuttle, he certainly gets to his Star Destroyer awful fast considering it's in pursuit of the Falcon out of the system.

Doesn't change the story one iota. In fact, it actually fits the story better than "Humpty Dumpty" standing there. Especially if you go by both what Obi-Wan says about Anakin's fall. And Yoda's comments about the true nature of their beings. Anakin doesn't manifest as a corpse, so why should he be beholden to the limitations of the flesh. When Yoda makes it clear they're not. And besides, Luke doesn't know either ghost as his father. He never knew him outside of Darth vader except as the corpse he spends a few moments with before leaving the Death Star II.

Seems you and me are on the same page regarding the films.