Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[mzupeman]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Heh. The biological hints are all there in the OT. Ben even says that it's an energy field generated by all living things in the first movie, so I don't give two shits about the midi controversy either.

Same the whole midichlorian thing was never a big issue for me either, and I agree with this. If Luke failed at the end of Empire, that is, if he died, Leia was to be the last hope. Why not somebody else? Because it was biologically connected, of course.

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

The midichlorians were created as a trail of bread crumbs, a clue as to Anakin's origins. When Lucas wrote The Phantom Menace, he created the midichlorian idea as a set-up that would only be paid off in Revenge of the Sith when Anakin would learn he was created by Darth Sidious. Everyone freaked out about the midichlorians and Anakin's "virgin birth" in Episode I, and Lucas wound up scaling back the idea that Sidious used the Dark Side to create Anakin, and what remains now is only a hint. So you have a movie with a big set up, but ultimately, only a vague payoff.

I think Lucas should have stuck to his guns. Anakin learning the dark secret of his origins helps explain his tortured state of mind leading him to believe Palpatine.

He definitely should have stuck to his guns. People got pissed off over the midichlorian thing... yet by veering off course from it later in the PT, we have to stomach the whole virgin birth thing. That's infinitely worse.

[Aquel]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

The midichlorians were created as a trail of bread crumbs, a clue as to Anakin's origins. When Lucas wrote The Phantom Menace, he created the midichlorian idea as a set-up that would only be paid off in Revenge of the Sith when Anakin would learn he was created by Darth Sidious. Everyone freaked out about the midichlorians and Anakin's "virgin birth" in Episode I, and Lucas wound up scaling back the idea that Sidious used the Dark Side to create Anakin, and what remains now is only a hint. So you have a movie with a big set up, but ultimately, only a vague payoff.

I think Lucas should have stuck to his guns. Anakin learning the dark secret of his origins helps explain his tortured state of mind leading him to believe Palpatine.

It is a bit too subtle now whilst I find it quite a good idea actually. The Chosen One created by the dark side, eventually destroys the (complacent and arrogant) Jedi Order and in his final moments destroys the (downright evil) Sith. As such it is a full circle (that is the second one he completed ) where he brings balance to the Force.

It was only after I saw a post somewhere that I was reminded of the virgin birth, the tale of Plagueis and could connect the dots.. too bad that such a revelation was made so subtle that it loses its impact.

[Ernest Rister]

If Anakin wants to keep Padme alive, and he's a walking talking example that the Dark Side can keep people alive and even create life, it makes his choice to turn that much more compelling and believable.

[Troy73]

Originally Posted by Aquel

It is a bit too subtle now whilst I find it quite a good idea actually. The Chosen One created by the dark side, eventually destroys the (complacent and arrogant) Jedi Order and in his final moments destroys the (downright evil) Sith. As such it is a full circle (that is the second one he completed ) where he brings balance to the Force.

It was only after I saw a post somewhere that I was reminded of the virgin birth, the tale of Plagueis and could connect the dots.. too bad that such a revelation was made so subtle that it loses its impact.

Exactly. When I view the scenes in ROTJ where the Emperor, Vader and Luke are all together I think grandfather, father and son. Can't not see it that way and that for me is kind of a neat realization no matter how subtle they may have eluded to it.

I do feel the prequels change the dynamic of the saga. Before they existed I viewed the OT as Luke's story. Now with the PT included I see it as Anakin's story which latter becomes the story of the Skywalker family.

[motorheadache95]

Originally Posted by ahossein79

Don't bother let people believe what they want to believe. I love how a "consensus" justifies a point of view and makes a belief more than opinion, just another word for mindless sheep in large numbers!

That goes both ways. You can't just dismiss people who think the prequels are bad films as a "vocal minority of internet whiners." That certainly isn't true. Likewise, trying to argue what is the "general consensus" is also based purely on personal speculation and experience.

And box office money is also a meaningless argument one way or another. If movie's were judged on their monetary success, then Michael Bay's Transformers movies must be some of the finest films of American cinema.

I don't mind the ongoing debate about the merits or lack thereof of the prequels-- it's a major factor of the series. For some, it offered new exciting adventures and incites in the Star Wars universe, for others the films are abysmal and taint the original trilogy. Both are valid opinions, but I hate it when people attempt to "explain" the reasoning of other's opinions, as if there was something wrong with them that was keeping them from the "truth" of the movies. EX: Prequel fans are "Delusional Lucas fanboys" or the common explanation for prequel haters: "Your expectations were too high" (me not being a fan of the prequels, I really hate that one). Its all a bunch of BS.

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by motorheadache95

...or the common explanation for prequel haters: "Your expectations were too high" (me not being a fan of the prequels, I really hate that one). Its all a bunch of BS.

Well, I really do think some fans had far-fetched ideas, especially about Anakin being some kind of cold-blooded monster from the start. That notion isn't even hinted at in the OT. Basically, what we learn from the earlier films is the following:

• Anakin was a good friend to Obi-Wan Kenobi, during the events of the Clone Wars
• When they first met, Obi-Wan was amazed by Anakin's strength in the Force
• Anakin was "the best star pilot in the galaxy", and a cunning warrior.
• He was Luke and Leia's father
• He was later seduced by the Dark Side, and became Darth Vader
• He was somehow made into being "more machine than man, twisted and evil".

That's all the details we get from the first trilogy; everything else seemed to balloon out of control in the fan community.

[Aragorn the Elfstone]

Yeah, the "expectations were too high" thing is rubbish. For this teenager in 1999, the months leading up to Episode I were filled with non-stop Star Wars hysteria. There was no way my expectations could have been any higher - and I loved the movie.

To be fair, I'd only become a die hard Star Wars fan in the wake of the 1997 Special Editions (even though I'd seen the movies when I was little). So I don't think I came with as much baggage as some other viewers did perhaps (still being young helped too - I wasn't nearly as critical a viewer).

[Troy73]

Originally Posted by motorheadache95

I hate it when people attempt to "explain" the reasoning of other's opinions, as if there was something wrong with them that was keeping them from the "truth" of the movies. EX: Prequel fans are "Delusional Lucas fanboys" or the common explanation for prequel haters: "Your expectations were too high" (me not being a fan of the prequels, I really hate that one). Its all a bunch of BS.

However, that statement does sum up a great deal of fans disappointment in the PT. I remember in the years leading up to "Episode I" my dad and I were very excited about the new trilogy. I waited in line to get the premiere tickets. I would talk with friends at length about the possibilities the PT presented to clear up or expand on characters. The anticipation was incredible and everyone was excited to see how one of the greatest sagas in film history all began. It just did not live up to that. The PT feels rushed and contrived by comparison to the OT and that's its biggest problem because it shouldn't feel that way. I mean if it was all planned out why would it be so vastly different in feeling. The only OT film that comes close to the feel of the PT is ROTJ. It's a slam bang go for broke actioner like all 3 PT films and yet I find ROTJ to be a far superior film to anything in the PT. I do like the PT, but in being honest with myself after taking a hard look at the entire saga you can't help but find the PT underwhelming at best.

[nmycon]

I was 5 when The Phantom Menace hit theaters

I watched ROTJ the night before and I was so pissed when TPM ended and Darth Vader wasn't in the movie at all

Must have been pretty early in it's run, because the theater was FULL!

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by Aragorn84

Yeah, the "expectations were too high" thing is rubbish. For this teenager in 1999, the months leading up to Episode I were filled with non-stop Star Wars hysteria. There was no way my expectations could have been any higher - and I loved the movie.

I was also excited, but I didn't have any huge ideas about what "should" happen. I first saw "New Hope" at age 6 or so, and grew up with the VHS tapes. I saw the Special Edition of it in '97 at the theater (missed the sequels because of money issues), and was still impressed. I was almost 19 when "Phantom Menace" came out, and really enjoyed it. To this day, I fail to understand the seething level of hate for Jar Jar, or Anakin being so young. I was very shocked when Qui-Gon was killed; my heart sank when Obi-Wan screamed. Maul was a total badass, and overall, I still love the movie.

To be fair, I'd only become a die hard Star Wars fan in the wake of the 1997 Special Editions (even though I'd seen the movies when I was little). So I don't think I came with as much baggage as some other viewers did perhaps (still being young helped too - I wasn't nearly as critical a viewer).

I'm with ya on this, too. As the years passed, it seems more people online just raged against Lucas about the prequels, and I don't really understand why. I read a few of the books growing up, but I just soaked in the whole experience. Sure, there's small things I'd like changed in retrospect, but the PT isn't an abomination or anything. I don't feel like Lucas "raped my childhood", probably because I don't recall idolizing the series too much.

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by Troy73

I mean, if it was all planned out, why would it be so vastly different in feeling?

Because it wasn't all planned from the beginning. Lucas wrote a very short treatment in 1973, just to establish the core basics of how the characters in "New Hope" ended up where they are by that point. He went over several revisions, but never expanded things too much. The only major plot element was that Anakin was burned up in a volcano, and the kids were hidden away; everything else was developed later. Yoda didn't even exist in that treatment, because Lucas didn't create him until working on "Empire Strikes Back".

[RayCRP]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

Because it wasn't all planned from the beginning. Lucas wrote a very short treatment in 1973, just to establish the core basics of how the characters in "New Hope" ended up where they are by that point. He went over several revisions, but never expanded things too much. The only major plot element was that Anakin was burned up in a volcano, and the kids were hidden away; everything else was developed later. Yoda didn't even exist in that treatment, because Lucas didn't create him until working on "Empire Strikes Back".

Making it up as he went, huh? Like the Luke/Leia kiss? Then, "Somehow... I've always known!"

I know Lucas had twins since the early drafts, but didn't Lucas say that had there been a VII, VIII, IX, that the gang would be seeking out Luke's sister... and it wasn't Leia? And then Lucas just later compressed the whole story and made Leia the lost sister?

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by RayCRP

Making it up as he went, huh? Like the Luke/Leia kiss? Then, "Somehow... I've always known!"

More or less. For example, Kenobi was originally going to be present on Yavin, watching the battle with Leia. But during filming, Lucas realized he'd built up Kenobi was a former warrior, and had no payoff. So, he killed off the character, but ran into problems with "Empire". That's why Yoda was invented, as a replacement for Obi-Wan.

I know Lucas had twins since the early drafts, but didn't Lucas say that had there been a VII, VIII, IX, that the gang would be seeking out Luke's sister... and it wasn't Leia? And then Lucas just later compressed the whole story and made Leia the lost sister?

I never heard anything about that. I know at one point, he'd planned on doing a "post-Jedi" trilogy, but that was probably before the Expanded Universe got so huge. Personally, I'd love to see some animated films, based on Timothy Zahn's "Thrawn" series.

[RayCRP]

Whoops, I was fairly sure I saw an interview or bonus feature with Lucas saying it, but it looks like it was Kurtz that revealed it, presumably based on Lucas's early outline:

http://www.theforce.net/latestnews/s...s_19_80270.asp

I assume the info's credible (I know I've heard that part about Han having supposed to have died from several sources), but it's hard to tell how seriously or for how long it was considered. But yeah, as of just before Empire release, Leia wasn't Luke's sister. :P

I do recall hearing that about Obi-Wan's fate, though. The part about killing him off, and then needing to create Yoda when a physical character was needed in the sequel.

[Aquel]

Originally Posted by Troy73

Exactly. When I view the scenes in ROTJ where the Emperor, Vader and Luke are all together I think grandfather, father and son. Can't not see it that way and that for me is kind of a neat realization no matter how subtle they may have eluded to it.

I do feel the prequels change the dynamic of the saga. Before they existed I viewed the OT as Luke's story. Now with the PT included I see it as Anakin's story which latter becomes the story of the Skywalker family.

Agreed. The most notable change for me in this regard is when watching the duel between Vader and Obi Wan in A New Hope. Their words have a lot more meaning and impact now that we know what actually transpired.

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by RayCRP

I know I've heard that part about Han having supposed to have died from several sources...

According to Lucas, it was originally Harrison Ford's idea, and a few others latched onto it. George was adamant about all the main characters surviving, though.

The only plot point that confuses me about the whole series is that building the Death Star takes 20 years, but the second one is built in three or so? Lucas jokingly said that the Empire had supply problems on the "Sith" commentary; I doubt even he could've come up with an explanation for it.

[NYorker]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

According to Lucas, it was originally Harrison Ford's idea, and a few others latched onto it. George was adamant about all the main characters surviving, though.

The only plot point that confuses me about the whole series is that building the Death Star takes 20 years, but the second one is built in three or so? Lucas jokingly said that the Empire had supply problems on the "Sith" commentary; I doubt even he could've come up with an explanation for it.

It's like the iPad: the first one took a long time, but no.2 & 3...

I also remember at the end of "Empire" before Solo was frozen, and Lea says "I love you," to which he replies, "I know." From what I remember, Lucas almost went berserk when he said that (it wasn't in the script), then changed his mind...

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by NYorker

I also remember at the end of "Empire" before Solo was frozen, and Lea says "I love you," to which he replies, "I know." From what I remember, Lucas almost went berserk when he said that (it wasn't in the script), then changed his mind...

In the 30th anniversary interview, Irvin Kershner said Ford came up with that line during one of the last takes, after several attempts to get the scripted version working. I loved how Lucas wound up mirroring that in "Jedi", with Leia shooting the stormtrooper at the bunker. It was priceless.

On a different note, i found this shot a while back, and its probably one of my favorite fan arts involving Leia.

[motorheadache95]

Originally Posted by Troy73

However, that statement does sum up a great deal of fans disappointment in the PT. I remember in the years leading up to "Episode I" my dad and I were very excited about the new trilogy. I waited in line to get the premiere tickets. I would talk with friends at length about the possibilities the PT presented to clear up or expand on characters. The anticipation was incredible and everyone was excited to see how one of the greatest sagas in film history all began. It just did not live up to that. The PT feels rushed and contrived by comparison to the OT and that's its biggest problem because it shouldn't feel that way. I mean if it was all planned out why would it be so vastly different in feeling. The only OT film that comes close to the feel of the PT is ROTJ. It's a slam bang go for broke actioner like all 3 PT films and yet I find ROTJ to be a far superior film to anything in the PT. I do like the PT, but in being honest with myself after taking a hard look at the entire saga you can't help but find the PT underwhelming at best.

Here's my take on the prequels in a nutshell, and why I hate that "your expectations were too high" cop out: The prequels are poorly written, lazily directed, and feature wooden, uninteresting characters.

If my expectations were that the film was not all of these, then yes, my expectations were too high. I have no long-term nostalgic attachment to the originals-- I got into Star Wars when I was 14, a couple of years before the Special Editions hit theaters. But they are clearly massively superior films in my eyes.

Not that I totally hate the prequels-- there are certain bits here and there that I like, and I even think Episode III is moderately decent. But the prequels have scenes that are SO BAD that I have a hard time believing that anybody could write, shoot, and give the okay on them being cut into a theatrical movie release.

[IndyMLVC]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

In the 30th anniversary interview, Irvin Kershner said Ford came up with that line during one of the last takes, after several attempts to get the scripted version working. I loved how Lucas wound up mirroring that in "Jedi", with Leia shooting the stormtrooper at the bunker. It was priceless.

On a different note, i found this shot a while back, and its probably one of my favorite fan arts involving Leia.

The REAL Leia didn't age quite as well.