Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Maxwell Everett]

Originally Posted by Norbie

At the original release of Episode IV different theatres had different mixes, so how does one know which is the "Official/Original" mix?

There are three original 1977 English mixes:

70mm six track mix
35mm stereo mix
35mm mono mix

They were created in that order. The Despecialized Edition has these mixes as well as the '85 and '93 laserdisc ones. That's why you should download it (after you have legally purchased the Blu-rays).

[Gamma_Winstead]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

Exactly and the fact Vader was trying to kill Luke (even though he didn't know who he was) in the Death Star trench supports that Vader was not Luke's father IMO.

Why wouldn't Vader try to kill Luke? He didn't know Luke's last name, and he supposedly thought his wife died with both kids unborn.

It makes sense that only after the Death Star is destroyed and Luke becomes a major leader of the rebels that his name would be known to Vader.

[Galactus123]

Watching Red Letter Media's Star Wars reviews again right now. They are much more entertaining than the prequels themselves.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Gamma_Winstead

Why wouldn't Vader try to kill Luke? He didn't know Luke's last name, and he supposedly thought his wife died with both kids unborn.

It makes sense that only after the Death Star is destroyed and Luke becomes a major leader of the rebels that his name would be known to Vader.

In the context of the rest of the movie, it doesn't make sense Lucas had in mind Vader was Luke's father and Leia was his sister. This has been re-hashed countless times in this thread and I don't want to go into it; I am just saying I don't buy into this notion that Lucas had everything planned out from the get go. He rather obviously changed his mind as he went.

[Gamma_Winstead]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

In the context of the rest of the movie, it doesn't make sense Lucas had in mind Vader was Luke's father and Leia was his sister. This has been re-hashed countless times in this thread and I don't want to go into it; I am just saying I don't buy into this notion that Lucas had everything planned out from the get go. He rather obviously changed his mind as he went.

I'm not arguing that he didn't know what he claimed. It's very clear he didn't. But Vader attacking Luke in the trenches doesn't help your case. It makes perfect sense why he'd try to kill him.

[blonde_devil]

Really Luke was a bit of a crybaby - can you blame Vader for wanting to kill him even if he was his son? I mean, can you imagine taking him along with you to things, being bad-ass Vader with a kid like that in tow?

[Petey Parker]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

In the context of the rest of the movie, it doesn't make sense Lucas had in mind Vader was Luke's father and Leia was his sister. This has been re-hashed countless times in this thread and I don't want to go into it; I am just saying I don't buy into this notion that Lucas had everything planned out from the get go. He rather obviously changed his mind as he went.

I can see that. It's also kind of strange that if they were trying to hide Luke, they would keep his last name Skywalker since Anakin is apparently pretty well known according to the prequels (unless Skywalker is the Smith of the Star Wars universe I guess) I know Tatooine is in the middle of nowhere but you would think someone in the Rebel alliance would at least think it is an odd coincidence that he shared the same name as a well known former Jedi.

[rickah88]

People should bash Lucas more often...oh wait, that's been going on for over a decade.

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by rickah88

People should bash Lucas more often...oh wait, that's been going on for over a decade.

where there's smoke there's usually fire

[BillieCassin]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

This is complete and utter horses--t.


The only time Lucas wasn't on set for TESB was in Norway. For that he had Gary Kurtz on set. The rest of the time, in England, he was very much there.





This book details everything, and it was written and published when Empire was released. I still have this book BTW.

So we are supposed to rely on a promotional book from nearly forty years ago over the OFFICIAL record recently released by LUCASBOOKS based on the contents of the LUCASFILM archives? Which is backed up with daily production notes, travel itineraries, and the physical documentation?

Head in the sand much?

Go read this book, and then we can have a rational discussion.


http://www.amazon.com/The-Making-Star-Wars-Strikes/dp/0345509617

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

It's funny how people can misconstrue and use facts to fit their own agenda. It's pretty pathetic how some of you try to to such things to discredit Lucas' involvement in Empire in particular. No, he wasn't on set everyday - he physically couldn't be and oversee the creation of ILM and deal with financing the film. But he wrote the first draft of the script, had total creative input, and controlled post-production. By Jedi, Lucas had less of a producer hat on and could focus on the principal photography more than with Empire and considering Marquand's inexperience with effects driven action films, I don't see what the problem is with Lucas maintaining a tighter control over the film during production. I know Marcia Lucas did a great job with the editing, but it's an opinion that she "saved" the film by herself, not a fact.

Go read this officially sanctioned book, and then we can have that discussion.

[rickah88]

Originally Posted by wormraper

where there's smoke there's usually fire

Not always. Especially in this case, at least as far as I'm concerned.
But I'm in the minority, it seems...and as they say: Haters gonna hate.

[kidglov3s]

I find the die hard Lucas fans' posts to be fascinating. I had no idea such people existed.

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by rickah88

Not always. Especially in this case, at least as far as I'm concerned.
But I'm in the minority, it seems...and as they say: Haters gonna hate.

he made 3-5 good movies. the ENTIRE REST OF HIS CAREER is pure and utter shit

[rickah88]

Originally Posted by wormraper

he made 3-5 good movies. the ENTIRE REST OF HIS CAREER is pure and utter shit

Yes opinions are opinions.
Thankfully I don't share that, particular, opinion.

[stvn1974]

Lucas directed 6 movies. Three classics, THX-1138, American Graffiti, Star Wars and three pieces of crap, The Phantom Menace, Attack Of The Clones and Revenge of the Sith and then he went and ruined two of the classics. So he is 1 for 6.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Gamma_Winstead

I'm not arguing that he didn't know what he claimed. It's very clear he didn't. But Vader attacking Luke in the trenches doesn't help your case. It makes perfect sense why he'd try to kill him.

It helps my case because there is no way Lucas would have written it that way if he was certain Vader was Luke's father. It just doesn't make sense. It's just an obvious back tracking. No differently than the way Luke was talking to Han about what he thought of Leia. No way he was thinking Leia was Luke's sister. And Vader - who killed Luke's father - almost kills him too - the hero with some help ends up saving the day. That makes sense. And that was the thinking. That's how it was obviously intended in 1977.

Star Wars then becomes an incredible hit and cultural phenomenon - and the story remaking begins for the Empire...

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by BillieCassin

So we are supposed to rely on a promotional book from nearly forty years ago over the OFFICIAL record recently released by LUCASBOOKS based on the contents of the LUCASFILM archives? Which is backed up with daily production notes, travel itineraries, and the physical documentation?

Alan Arnold was on set (even in Norway), traveled with the production. Interviews with Kershner, the actors, VFX and production people, editors, etc. throughout the production. Notes on what's going on the day to day of what's on set (the election of Margaret Thatcher, the death of John Barry, etc). Production photos.


So, which book are you talking about again? I take it you didn't read that one, did you?


P162: (Monday July 9). Arnold & Kersh discuss Lucas on set making script "compressions" (cuts before filming to avoid excess footage). Kersh discusses "catching" Lucas looking through the camera (and describing GL looking like a kid caught stealing cookies) which led him to have GL direct the scene where Luke gets ready to leave the medical bay before the battle.


Alan Arnold: "Are you happy about them or do you resent having his presence looming over your shoulder?"
Irvin Kershner: "I'm happy because I agreed with the compressions. Besides, George is very clever about it. He pops in and out of the set and takes a look..."


Sounds like a real tense relationship, doesn't it?


Point is you said "how little Lucas had to do with ESB while it was in production - he wasn't even on the same continent most of the filming. He absolutely did not like what Kershner was doing and fought against it " was a total falsehood and I'm calling you on it.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

It helps my case because there is no way Lucas would have written it that way if he was certain Vader was Luke's father. It just doesn't make sense. It's just an obvious back tracking. No differently than the way Luke was talking to Han about what he thought of Leia. No way he was thinking Leia was Luke's sister. And Vader - who killed Luke's father - almost kills him too - the hero with some help ends up saving the day. That makes sense. And that was the thinking. That's how it was obviously intended in 1977.

Vader trying to shoot down Luke in the trench isn't evidence though. All Vader did was sense "The Force is strong with this one". But he wasn't about to believe that somehow this was his son in front of him.


The first film's story was in flux. GL had no idea that it would be a giant success and allow him to tell the full story like he wanted (up until the first grosses came in he didn't know if Empire would recoup it's cost, which he paid out of pocket for). So he kept it as simple as possible, scrapping story elements and saving other stuff for later and making last minute changes, like Obi-Wan being cut down by Vader. I don't see why people are using these changes to make him out to be a bad person.

[BillieCassin]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

Lucas directed 6 movies. Three classics, THX-1138, American Graffiti, Star Wars and three pieces of crap, The Phantom Menace, Attack Of The Clones and Revenge of the Sith and then he went and ruined two of the classics. So he is 1 for 6.

It's such a shame that he won't let us watch THX-1138. What made the movie impressive was that it was made by a very young man on a shoestring budget, and what he was able to accomplish with that.

The heavily-CGI version - the only version he now makes available - is much, much less impressive, because it has cartoons over it all that a man in his 50's with nearly unlimited resources created.

What made the movie impressive was how it was made and what he was able to do with so little - watching the current version, it's pretty mediocre at best when you consider it represents of a man more than twice as old who could buy and sell us all.

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

It helps my case because there is no way Lucas would have written it that way if he was certain Vader was Luke's father. It just doesn't make sense. It's just an obvious back tracking. No differently than the way Luke was talking to Han about what he thought of Leia. No way he was thinking Leia was Luke's sister. And Vader - who killed Luke's father - almost kills him too - the hero with some help ends up saving the day. That makes sense. And that was the thinking. That's how it was obviously intended in 1977.

Star Wars then becomes an incredible hit and cultural phenomenon - and the story remaking begins for the Empire...

Precisely.

What's funny is that someone on one of the last pages talked about "revisionist history" which is really ironic, because Lucas owns that lock, stock, and barrel. All one has to do is read his statements over the years to see that he was recreating the history of the films themselves constantly - look at the conflicting statements about the casting of James Earl Jones on the previous pages. I'm sure Lucas said all those things at different times. He was constantly revising the story of how everything was done, on such a grand level that "revising" doesn't even seem a strong enough word. He has contradicted himself on so many occasions about so many things.

He's sort of the Madonna of the film industry in that respect. And, in the 80's when both of them were doing it, you could do it - but today, with the Internet and everything else - it's really not possible to maintain. Madonna used to tell the story over and over about how she landed in NYC with $35, was eating out of trash bins, etc. - when it's been verified by a dozen sources now, she had a shoebox full of 20's, thousands of dollars she had saved as a teenager from babysitting money, etc. But it made a more romantic, hard luck story - the truth didn't come out until relatively recently.

I don't hate Lucas, I don't even dislike him. He brought us Star Wars. I love the guy. But there also were a LOT more folks involved than just him - this fantasy that he was the sole, unchanging vision is just not true - in fact, many of the things that now are considered the best parts of the franchise were fought against by him until he relented. He does have grand vision, but as the prequels show - when he does all the directing/writing himself, things don't turn out quite so rosy.

But in any case, everyone is gonna believe what they are gonna believe...but I highly recommend Rizzler's Making Of books, which are so surprisingly honest about all this - astonishing as they are officially sanctioned. The Secret History of Star Wars fills in the few remaining blanks, and the prequels. At this point, it's all so well-documented it is so strange to see folks clinging to things they read 30+ years ago and think they are gospel, but hey - people still thing there were WMD in Iraq.

[PeterTHX]

PS: I really really recommend people interested in EMPIRE to seek out the Alan Arnold book. As a teen it was pretty dry reading but as an adult it's a fascinating look into the nitty gritty of the production as it was happening by someone who was there on during it all.