Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Monolithium]

All this talk about Lightsaber duels makes me want to rank them!

1. Vader vs. Luke in Empire
2. Father vs. Son in Jedi
3. Master vs. Apprentice in Hope
4. Yoda vs. The Emperor in Sith
5. Obi-wan/Anakin vs. Tyranus in Sith
6. Obi-Wan vs. Anakin in Sith
7. Obi-Wan/Anakin/Yoda vs. Tyranus in Clones
8. Qui-Gon vs. Maul in Menace
9. Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon vs. Maul in Menace
10. Windu vs. Sidious in Sith

[Batman1980]

Windu is almost unbeatable, I still think Palpatine lost to him on purpose, to complete the picture that the Jedi were trying to toss out the Senate and take over.

[STARKILLER--1138]

Originally Posted by Beast

It was nice to see what Jedi's in their prime with real training looked like in the PTs. Aka, Awesome.

Agreed 100%! The Duel of the Fates fight is my favorite! It was awesome to finally see what real Jedi and Sith can do.

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

Windu is almost unbeatable, I still think Palpatine lost to him on purpose, to complete the picture that the Jedi were trying to toss out the Senate and take over.

Windu...man...what a bad ass!! So awesome in the Geo arena battle. Would love to see a movie backstory on him.

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by STARKILLER--1138

Agreed 100%! The Duel of the Fates fight is my favorite! It was awesome to finally see what real Jedi and Sith can do.

It was nice to see what Obi-Wan could do. Maul was overly arrogant and a little too stupid, Jinn was obviously outmatched and died almost immediately once his more powerful/talented apprentice was separated from him.

[STARKILLER--1138]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

It was nice to see what Obi-Wan could do. Maul was overly arrogant and a little too stupid, Jinn was obviously outmatched and died almost immediately once his more powerful/talented apprentice was separated from him.

Maul was definitely over confident. Guess he felt pretty unstoppable after nailing Qui-Gon, and once he thought he'd beaten Obi-Wan. Kinda the same way Jango was over confident after pwning Master Trebor on Geo. He thought he could take on Mace too. Poor bastard!

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by STARKILLER--1138

Maul was definitely over confident. Guess he felt pretty unstoppable after nailing Qui-Gon, and once he thought he'd beaten Obi-Wan. Kinda the same way Jango was over confident after pwning Master Trebor on Geo. He thought he could take on Mace too. Poor bastard!

Mace Windu and Yoda were the most powerful members of the Council in lightsaber combat, guess Jango didn't do his homework before attacking that Jedi.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by MCT

The ENTIRE OT was based on themes of conflict and internal struggle. Saying if it wasn't for those things the scene would have failed makes no sense at all. The point is, those fights ARE grounded in conflict, so it doesn't fail; in fact, in the grand scheme of things, it just may be the most emotionally heavy fight in the entire saga. Again, it's not about the way they fight, it's about WHY they're fighting...it's the reason why every fight in the OT had a point and therefore had much more impact than some stupid CGI Showcase of Yoda/Dooku or Maul/Obi Wan in the PT. I doubt anyone shed tears when Mace Windu got his just desserts. Or Kit Fisto. Or Plo Koon. Or Longhead Alienman. Or Yaddle. Or.....

I didn't say movies...I said moves. Of course the movies matter. If they didn't, we wouldn't be having this discussion, because SW would have been DOA in '77. I daresay Lucas would never had gotten TPM off the ground if that were the first movie of his saga in 1999, but that's another topic.

The fights between Luke and Vader are both more meaningful and more interesting to watch. The fight between Obi-Wan and Vader is badly executed, period, (it's also not remotely as emotionally gripping as Luke's fights with Vader). The film-production team didn't intentionally make that fight feeble to emphasize the emotions going on behind it, the fight was limited by worthless saber props, and physical incapability of Alec Guinness, all of which could have easily been avoided/corrected if the filming hadn't been rushed and underfunded (the guy's wearing a hood, how hard would it be to have a stuntman stand in for some of the shooting, and do some decent fighting?)... and that is the problem that pervades that whole movie.

I'm not a moron for being practical. It's a straw-man argument to say that anybody criticising ANH must be a simpleton easily impressed by the shiny CGI of the PT. I don't compare ANH unfavorably to the PT, I'm comparing it unfavorably to ESB and RotJ. It's not as if there was some giant leap of available technology between the making of those movies; there wasn't. The only giant leap was in time and money. The studio did not give Lucas the time or the resources he needed to make the movie he wanted, and it shows, and that's why he quit the studio system and made ESB and the rest of the movies without them. Call people names like "fanboy" all you want, but I think that a more reasonable measure of "fanboyism" would be someone pretending that a movie was made better than it really was, or even intentionally made badly, out of some nostalgic devotion. "Charm" does not equal better quality.

... and CGI is not the pejorative you're making it out to be. Including acrobatics in the PT fights doesn't magically "rob them of their soul". Luke pulled some acrobatics in his fight with Vader, too; Was that fight soul-less? Why is the fight in TPM "soul-less"? Or the one in AotC? Those fights have many of the same dynamics as the fights in the OT. Dooku has orders to kill Obi-Wan and capture Anakin if possible, but he also has his own designs on the outcome, he is conflicted, (like Vader is conflicted when fighting Luke). Dooku uses taunts to manipulate his opponents, (like Obi-Wan uses taunts to keep Vader's attention on him instead of his escaping friends). Anakin's arrogance and short temper subvert that fight, and the element of arrogance emerges in Yoda's fights, and he finally pays for it against Palpatine, (like Luke charging-in cock-sure against Vader and getting spanked for it). Obi-Wan has to face Maul alone after Qui-Gonn falls, he isn't quite ready for it, his emotions get ahead of him and it nearly gets him killed, (like Luke gets carried away when fighting Vader on the Death Star after Vader's taunt about Leia). Palpatine is clearly sardonically amused at the audacity of the Jedi trying to arrest him, and he throws the fight to manipulate Anakin; he is fighting Windu, but really he is fighting for the soul of Anakin, (much in the same way that souls are at stake in the fight in ROTJ, with Palpatine manipulating that scenario as well). Emotions play an elemental role in every saber fight in any Star Wars movie. How is the Obi-Wan/Vader fight in ANH so much more meaningful than any of those? Everything underpinning that fight is also represented in the PT fights.

A fight doesn't have to deliver a climactic line like "I am your father" in order to have any meaning.

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

Windu is almost unbeatable, I still think Palpatine lost to him on purpose, to complete the picture that the Jedi were trying to toss out the Senate and take over.

That's the way it looks to me, too.
It looks like Palpatine took out the others quickly to remove the real danger of being outflanked and outmaneuvered, and then toyed with Windu while he waited for Anakin to show up, (which I believe he "felt" coming the whole time). I think he felt Anakin coming down the hall, and decided it was time to lose the saber and take a pitiful posture.

[Batman1980]

Palpatine just pushed and pushed, I think fear is one of the reasons after Windu died that Anakin didn't make his move after Padme died, although he may have just been in shock for a very long time.

[SethRex]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

The fights between Luke and Vader are both more meaningful and more interesting to watch. The fight between Obi-Wan and Vader is badly executed, period. The film-production team didn't intentionally make that fight feeble to emphasize the emotions going on behind it, the fight was limited by worthless saber props, and physical incapability of Alec Guinness, all of which could have easily been avoided/corrected if the filming hadn't been rushed and underfunded (the guy's wearing a hood, how hard would it be to have a stuntman stand in for some of the shooting, and do some decent fighting?)... and that is the problem that pervades that whole movie.

I'm not a moron for being practical. It's a straw-man argument to say that anybody criticising ANH must be a simpleton easily impressed by the shiny CGI of the PT. I don't compare ANH unfavorably to the PT, I'm comparing it unfavorably to ESB and RotJ. It's not as if there was some giant leap of available technology between the making of those movies; there wasn't. The only giant leap was in time and money. The studio did not give Lucas the time or the resources he needed to make the movie he wanted, and that's why he quit the studio system and made ESB and the rest of the movies without them. Call people names like "fanboy" all you want, but I think that a more reasonable measure of "fanboyism" would be someone pretending that a movie was made better than it really was, or even intentionally made badly, out of some nostalgic devotion.



That's the way it looks to me, too.
It looks like Palpatine took out the others quickly to remove the real danger of being outflanked and outmaneuvered, and then toyed with Windu while he waited for Anakin to show up, (which I believe he "felt" coming the whole time). I think he felt Anakin coming down the hall, and decided it was time to lose the saber and take a pitiful posture.

Here's my theory. It's a mix of your ideas, where he purposefully lost, and deletes the fact that the loss was purposeful. He simply lost period. But feeling that Anakin was going to show up, he took the loss and twisted it to his own advantage. Similar to how his own electricity scarred him but he used it as a tool.

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by SethRex

Here's my theory. It's a mix of your ideas, where he purposefully lost, and deletes the fact that the loss was purposeful. He simply lost period. But feeling that Anakin was going to show up, he took the loss and twisted it to his own advantage. Similar to how his own electricity scarred him but he used it as a tool.

Windu's style is pure offense pretty much, almost unstoppable unless you're a master of a style like Soresu, which the Emperor wouldn't know since he's Sith. He did "lose" at a rather convenient time and was very quick to act like he was completely depleted of the ability to fight back.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

Palpatine just pushed and pushed, I think fear is one of the reasons after Windu died that Anakin didn't make his move after Padme died, although he may have just been in shock for a very long time.

Video games aside, I think Vader pretty much gave up on life after all that. Only two things keeping him going after that point: a life-support suit, and a hatred of Obi-Wan Kenobi. Learning of the existence of Luke must have introduced a lot of internal conflict in Vader, I think that was probably the first time he ever started considering the possibility of turning on Palpatine since the helmet went on, the first thing to give him any hope. That's what I like most about EpIII, I think Lucas supremely succeeded at focusing on what really made him Darth Vader: hopelessness. Palpatine killed his hope, and thereby killed his soul and enslaved his body.

He would also have been very rightfully afraid of Palpatine. Just look what a little bit of force-lightning did to Vader's iron-lung suit.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by SethRex

Here's my theory. It's a mix of your ideas, where he purposefully lost, and deletes the fact that the loss was purposeful. He simply lost period. But feeling that Anakin was going to show up, he took the loss and twisted it to his own advantage. Similar to how his own electricity scarred him but he used it as a tool.

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

Windu's style is pure offense pretty much, almost unstoppable unless you're a master of a style like Soresu, which the Emperor wouldn't know since he's Sith. He did "lose" at a rather convenient time and was very quick to act like he was completely depleted of the ability to fight back.

Windu is very powerful, but Palpatine is much, much faster, and he could have easily started throwing the whole room at Windu, like he did to Yoda.

... he toyed with him, he held back.

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

Video games aside, I think Vader pretty much gave up on life after all that. Only two things keeping him going after that point: a life-support suit, and a hatred of Obi-Wan Kenobi. Learning of the existence of Luke must have introduced a lot of internal conflict in Vader, I think that was probably the first time he ever started considering the possibility of turning on Palpatine since the helmet went on, the first thing to give him any hope. That's what I like most about EpIII, I think Lucas supremely succeeded at focusing on what really made him Darth Vader: hopelessness. Palpatine killed his hope, and thereby killed his soul and enslaved his body.

He would also have been very rightfully afraid of Palpatine. Just look what a little bit of force-lightning did to Vader's iron-lung suit.

Luke: [approaching R2-D2] I can't do it, R2. I can't go on alone.
Obi-Wan: [from out of sight] Yoda will always be with you.
Luke: Obi-Wan.
[Obi-Wan's spirit approaches Luke]
Luke: Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father.
Obi-Wan: Your father... was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and *became* Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view.
Luke: A certain point of view?
Obi-Wan: Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. Anakin was a good friend. When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.
Luke: There is still good in him.
Obi-Wan: He's more machine now than man; twisted and evil.

Source - IMDb
That little convo from RoTJ reveals a lot about SW and Anakin in particular. Pretty sure it says what you said too, just differently.

[P@t_Mtl]

Originally Posted by MCT

b-b-b-but they're SO FAST! And they're, like, flipping and twirling and not even trying to really hit each other! It's sooooo much cooler watching them try to impress each other with their mad sk1llz y0! Stupid OT fights, with their purpose and emotion...they suck.

Sorry MTC but I can't agree with you on that. You hate the prequels and as such you will just say that anyone who think the saber fights in them are better then the original is wrong. No offense but I love the originals but saying the three saber fights in them are more intense and better then those in the sequels is just "blind hatred" for a guy who decided to make changes "to his movies" and you don't agree.

Obi-Wan vs Vader : Alec Guiness could not perform, period. At the time of the fight Obi was roughly in his late 50's. Even considering that he did nothing for 19 years, as a Jedi he should still do a heck of a lot better in that fight. The Intensity is there, they did a wonderful job with the lines and emotions but the fight is just plain bad and it take's away from the entire thing. It was a rush job with a guy in a suit and a older man who just could not cut it.

Luke vs Vader on Bespin : Much better, intense but still lacking the intensity you would expect from a Jedi & Sith. Again here Luke is just not a Jedi. He is a kid who received a few weeks (at best) of training and is running on emotions to fight Vader. Here things are a bit better for Vader but he still come across as a large guy into a suite that can't move very well. This fight is considered epic by the fans for the ending with the now famous line I will not say here.

Luke vs Vader on Death Star : IMO the best of the originals. This one you can tell Hamil & Prowse really train for it and truly did the best they could with what they had. Luke truly skirts the dark side on this one but in the end does what Anakin was never able to do, walk away from the seduction of it all and by doing so help bring his father back out of the machine he had become.

The prequel saber are much better. They show us exactly what Jedi & Sith can actually do. Don't let you hatred of the prequels blind you. They are intense and with emotions. Go check Anakin vs Doku on Grevious command ship, lot's of emotions and intensity on this one along with a fight you would expect between a Jedi and a Sith. I know very well you will come up with some retords that they are not because you don't like them and as such will not see them as they are. There lies the difference between the "original fanboys" and the rest of the Star Wars "fanboys". Most of us are not blind to the imperfections of the originals, we love them, how we love them but we see them for what they are. The others just refuse to see them for what they are and are totally blind to all the cheese, bad acting, bad dialogue, bad fight scenes and uses excuses like they have more emotions then the prequels, they have more souls, they don't have silly kids dialogue to sell action figures.......and so on. In the end I know very well I will not convince you on anything, you mind just like the others is made up on it, the prequels are horrible and that is all, the original are the most perfect movies ever made. It's your right to think as such.

[Monolithium]

From a purely visual perspective the duels in the prequels are the best.

[RiseDarthVader]

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

Luke vs Vader on Death Star : IMO the best of the originals. This one you can tell Hamil & Prowse really train for it and truly did the best they could with what they had. Luke truly skirts the dark side on this one but in the end does what Anakin was never able to do, walk away from the seduction of it all and by doing so help bring his father back out of the machine he had become.

Just wanted to point out that Prowse has only done 1 lightsaber fight and that was the one in ANH. the other 2 were done by a stuntman.

[Bluyoda]

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

Sorry MTC but I can't agree with you on that. You hate the prequels and as such you will just say that anyone who think the saber fights in them are better then the original is wrong. No offense but I love the originals but saying the three saber fights in them are more intense and better then those in the sequels is just "blind hatred" for a guy who decided to make changes "to his movies" and you don't agree.

Obi-Wan vs Vader : Alec Guiness could not perform, period. At the time of the fight Obi was roughly in his late 50's. Even considering that he did nothing for 19 years, as a Jedi he should still do a heck of a lot better in that fight. The Intensity is there, they did a wonderful job with the lines and emotions but the fight is just plain bad and it take's away from the entire thing. It was a rush job with a guy in a suit and a older man who just could not cut it.

Luke vs Vader on Bespin : Much better, intense but still lacking the intensity you would expect from a Jedi & Sith. Again here Luke is just not a Jedi. He is a kid who received a few weeks (at best) of training and is running on emotions to fight Vader. Here things are a bit better for Vader but he still come across as a large guy into a suite that can't move very well. This fight is considered epic by the fans for the ending with the now famous line I will not say here.

Luke vs Vader on Death Star : IMO the best of the originals. This one you can tell Hamil & Prowse really train for it and truly did the best they could with what they had. Luke truly skirts the dark side on this one but in the end does what Anakin was never able to do, walk away from the seduction of it all and by doing so help bring his father back out of the machine he had become.

The prequel saber are much better. They show us exactly what Jedi & Sith can actually do. Don't let you hatred of the prequels blind you. They are intense and with emotions. Go check Anakin vs Doku on Grevious command ship, lot's of emotions and intensity on this one along with a fight you would expect between a Jedi and a Sith. I know very well you will come up with some retords that they are not because you don't like them and as such will not see them as they are. There lies the difference between the "original fanboys" and the rest of the Star Wars "fanboys". Most of us are not blind to the imperfections of the originals, we love them, how we love them but we see them for what they are. The others just refuse to see them for what they are and are totally blind to all the cheese, bad acting, bad dialogue, bad fight scenes and uses excuses like they have more emotions then the prequels, they have more souls, they don't have silly kids dialogue to sell action figures.......and so on. In the end I know very well I will not convince you on anything, you mind just like the others is made up on it, the prequels are horrible and that is all, the original are the most perfect movies ever made. It's your right to think as such.

I agree with you Pat!

I think they should redo the Obi Wan-Vader fight in ANH using quicker editing or CGI versions in some shots (the CGI Arnold in TS looks great, so I am confident they could pull this off successfully now).

Btw., have you read my previous post addressed to you yet?

I am endlessly thrilled about the BD release. Too bad it isn't comig out this fall though!

The coolest thing in the world would be if he announced it for this year as a nice surprise, but I know that's hardly coing to happen.

[MCT]

it's funny how some of you are going on about how prehistoric the moves in the Vader/Obi ANH fight were, while glowing about Windu being some Jedi ninja, and he has unarguably the worst form in all of the movies. Sam Jack looked clumsy and slow as hell against Palpatine, and in the arena battle in AOTC. It's easy to SAY Windu is "the most powerful lightsaber user EVAR!!11"....I just think it's better to see it. Talk is cheap. Cutting Jango's head off and goofing around with old man Palps did nothing to help back up that theory.

Obi-Wan vs Vader : Alec Guiness could not perform, period. At the time of the fight Obi was roughly in his late 50's. Even considering that he did nothing for 19 years, as a Jedi he should still do a heck of a lot better in that fight. The Intensity is there, they did a wonderful job with the lines and emotions but the fight is just plain bad and it take's away from the entire thing. It was a rush job with a guy in a suit and a older man who just could not cut it.

Luke vs Vader on Bespin : Much better, intense but still lacking the intensity you would expect from a Jedi & Sith. Again here Luke is just not a Jedi. He is a kid who received a few weeks (at best) of training and is running on emotions to fight Vader. Here things are a bit better for Vader but he still come across as a large guy into a suite that can't move very well. This fight is considered epic by the fans for the ending with the now famous line I will not say here.

Luke vs Vader on Death Star : IMO the best of the originals. This one you can tell Hamil & Prowse really train for it and truly did the best they could with what they had. Luke truly skirts the dark side on this one but in the end does what Anakin was never able to do, walk away from the seduction of it all and by doing so help bring his father back out of the machine he had become.

Pot...it's about the meaning behind the fight(s), not the fights themselves. You've totally ignored what I was trying to say by going on and on about the "intensity" and the choreography. The fighting is just window-dressing; it's the subtext that lies underneath which adds gravity to what you're watching. You don't get that gravity in the prequel duels. Like I said....pretty to look at, but utterly meaningless.

[P@t_Mtl]

Originally Posted by Bluyoda

I agree with you Pat!


Btw., have you read my previous post addressed to you yet?

Sorry Yoda, I did not notice your post, it was sort of buried in between all the posts between Beast and MTC

I love all 6 Star Wars movies but I am not blind either. They are what they are. They are my 6 favorite movies, plus it's also my hobby. I collect the books, the comic books, toys....you name it. I enjoy Star Wars, it's fun but they are not my life.

That being said, it's not high art and it never was suppose to be. All six movies have their strenght and their flaws, all 6 of them. The main difference with me is that I am not stuck in a generation type conflict with myself. I grew up on the first three movies and I love them but I always saw them for what they are fun cheesie space opera serial throwback movies. They are not, 2001 A Space Odyssey for example, they were never suppose to be that either. However some people grew up convincing themselves that they are, that they have no flaws, that they are perfect in every shape or form. I am not sure exactly why they have come to believe that but it's their choice and well good for them. The main trouble behind that is they elevated the first 3 movies to level they never really had but they are now so convince about it that everything Lucas now does is turn into hatred for them. That is the reason why like you and others we enjoy the prequels, we don't mind the special edition, we don't start foaming at the mouth in rage because Lucas removed a couple of bad horrible rubber muppets and replace them in CGI with a new song and start screaming on every forum we can find on the Internet that he raped our childhood. I love the first 3 movies, always have but they are not my life, they are movies, nothing more nothing less. All of my Star Wars collection is just a hobby, not my life. If Lucas does not like how they look and he want's to make more changes into them, good for him I say, it's his stuff he can do what he wish. I have the option to not buy what he is selling me however if I disagre with him, we all have. But screaming like maniacs that he rape our childhood is a bit over doing it in my opinion but since I always tought of them as movies and never really made my entire childhood revolved around them, I can be logical about it.

[P@t_Mtl]

Now I can't wait for the discussion about how bad the PQ & AQ is on the Blu-ray release next year also That should be epic as well.