Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[KubrickFan]

Originally Posted by Beast

Considering the shots of the original Wampa were downplayed and cut entirely originally from Empire Strikes Back chiefly because of the fact that the costume didn't work at all.... yes. Finally we got to actually see the creature, rather than lose it due to the craptastic costume. So yes, another change for the better.

Basically what you're saying is that if Spielberg decides to add multiple shots of a CG shark in Jaws, it'll be a better movie because the animatronic shark was supposed to work in the first place? You know, often less is more.

[atrocity77]

Originally Posted by KubrickFan

Basically what you're saying is that if Spielberg decides to add multiple shots of a CG shark in Jaws, it'll be a better movie because the animatronic shark was supposed to work in the first place? You know, often less is more.

lol exactly. I'll repost what I said last page that Beast ignored.

"No one is arguing what intentions Lucas had when he initially made these movies. Just because he initially had wanted to do something does NOT make it a good idea. Lots of filmmakers make mistakes and George Lucas is not infallible."

[Beast]

Originally Posted by KubrickFan

Basically what you're saying is that if Spielberg decides to add multiple shots of a CG shark in Jaws, it'll be a better movie because the animatronic shark was supposed to work in the first place? You know, often less is more.

If that's what he decided to do, then so be it. It's his film to do with as he wish.

But the difference is, the Wampa costume was designed and shot... and then the footage was cut because of the craptastic end result of the Wampa costume. Same reason the other Wampa scenes were excised.

So it's simply restoring the scene to what it was originally intended to be.

[STARKILLER--1138]

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

Sorry Yoda, I did not notice your post, it was sort of buried in between all the posts between Beast and MTC

I love all 6 Star Wars movies but I am not blind either. They are what they are. They are my 6 favorite movies, plus it's also my hobby. I collect the books, the comic books, toys....you name it. I enjoy Star Wars, it's fun but they are not my life.

That being said, it's not high art and it never was suppose to be. All six movies have their strenght and their flaws, all 6 of them. The main difference with me is that I am not stuck in a generation type conflict with myself. I grew up on the first three movies and I love them but I always saw them for what they are fun cheesie space opera serial throwback movies. They are not, 2001 A Space Odyssey for example, they were never suppose to be that either. However some people grew up convincing themselves that they are, that they have no flaws, that they are perfect in every shape or form. I am not sure exactly why they have come to believe that but it's their choice and well good for them. The main trouble behind that is they elevated the first 3 movies to level they never really had but they are now so convince about it that everything Lucas now does is turn into hatred for them. That is the reason why like you and others we enjoy the prequels, we don't mind the special edition, we don't start foaming at the mouth in rage because Lucas removed a couple of bad horrible rubber muppets and replace them in CGI with a new song and start screaming on every forum we can find on the Internet that he raped our childhood. I love the first 3 movies, always have but they are not my life, they are movies, nothing more nothing less. All of my Star Wars collection is just a hobby, not my life. If Lucas does not like how they look and he want's to make more changes into them, good for him I say, it's his stuff he can do what he wish. I have the option to not buy what he is selling me however if I disagre with him, we all have. But screaming like maniacs that he rape our childhood is a bit over doing it in my opinion but since I always tought of them as movies and never really made my entire childhood revolved around them, I can be logical about it.

[atrocity77]

Originally Posted by Beast

If that's what he decided to do, then so be it. It's his film to do with as he wish.

But the difference is, the Wampa costume was designed and shot... and then the footage was cut because of the craptastic end result of the Wampa costume. Same reason the other Wampa scenes were excised.

So it's simply restoring the scene to what it was originally intended to be.

and AGAIN nobody is arguing what George Lucas originally intended. We are instead arguing that it worked BETTER how it was included in the original theatrical cut, not the special edition cut. Who cares how it was intended? What matters is how well it actually works. As it was included in the theatrical cut it was far more suspenseful than the special edition scene.

I realize that you seem to worship everything George Lucas does, but I'll say it again, the man is not infallible. Just because he originally wanted it a certain way does NOT mean that it's necessarily better that way.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by atrocity77

Who cares how it was intended?

George Lucas. The Creator. The only opinion that truly matters.

What matters is how well it actually works. As it was included in the theatrical cut it was far more suspenseful than the special edition scene.

Well, it didn't work at all. Just like Sy Snootles and the Sarlaac Pit didn't work.

I realize that you seem to worship everything George Lucas does, but I'll say it again, the man is not infallible. Just because he originally wanted it a certain way does NOT mean that it's necessarily better that way.

Nope. There's plenty of aspects of the OT and PT that I don't care for. Already noted a lot in the OT.

And of course not. But he's the one with the final say in how it's presented.
And most of the changes were for the better.

[Batman1980]

I don't think we're going to get through to Beast guys, he's obviously a huge Lucas apologist and I doubt that will ever change. I simply don't agree with some of his views, like Episode I being the best one when it was clearly made to cater to little kids and sell toys, much like Return of the Jedi.

[SethRex]

The way I see it, yes. It is Lucas' creation so he should be able to do whatever he wants with the films. Also take to note that I'm not saying that a lot of those changes would be right. But I'm just saying that what's his is his. It's not like we can ultimately do anything about it. I love Star Wars and I really had no problems with the SEs. Though I will say this.

Who in their right mind would go up to Han all cheery after the death star attack and say out, in said cheery tone, "I knew there was more to you than money." To be fair it'd have made more sense if she said, "I knew you'd come back."

[Sgt Pepper]

Originally Posted by Beast

Well, it didn't work at all. Just like Sy Snootles and the Sarlaac Pit didn't work.

The original Sy Snootles may have been a puppet, but the song she sang was way better than the one sang by the garbage CG cluster**** band from the special edition.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

I don't think we're going to get through to Beast guys, he's obviously a huge Lucas apologist and I doubt that will ever change. I simply don't agree with some of his views, like Episode I being the best one when it was clearly made to cater to little kids and sell toys, much like Return of the Jedi.

If I was a Lucas Apologist, I wouldn't have issues with some of his choices.

But in the end they're his choices, and he has every right as the creator to make them.

I may not be entirely happy with every choice and change, but for the most part they work.

And so what if I consider E1 to be the best film? It's got the richest story of any of the films.

[Gaius Marius]

The simple solution to all of this bickering: Include both versions of the OT with the set. I like most of the changes to the SE (I like the Wampa scene and the changes to Cloud City, for example), but some are horrible (Greedo shoots first) or unnecessary (redone music number in RotJ).

Plus, regarless of how you view the "workprints", they should be included for their historical significance alone. If this were just any movie, then I could live with it. However, Star Wars is just not "any movie". It is a cultural phenomenon, and important in the history of film. The original movies that made history should be included, and fully restored.

[bandit29]

Originally Posted by Gaius Marius

The simple solution to all of this bickering: Include both versions of the OT with the set. I like most of the changes to the SE (I like the Wampa scene and the changes to Cloud City, for example), but some are horrible (Greedo shoots first) or unnecessary (redone music number in RotJ).

Plus, regarless of how you view the "workprints", they should be included for their historical significance alone. If this were just any movie, then I could live with it. However, Star Wars is just not "any movie". It is a cultural phenomenon, and important in the history of film. The original movies that made history should be included, and fully restored.

Agreed send that to Lucas ASAP!!!

[Beast]

Originally Posted by Sgt Pepper

The original Sy Snootles may have been a puppet, but the song she sang was way better than the one sang by the garbage CG cluster**** band from the special edition.

Disagreed. "Jedi Rocks" fits the Universe way better. And most of the band was not CGI.

Only Sy Snootles and Yoh Yowza were CGI. Droopy McCoy and Max Rebo were the same puppets that appeared in the original version of the film. And the new additions of Rappertunie, who also was a traditional puppet. Where as new members Barquin D'an, Doda Bodonawieedo, Umpass-Stay, and Ak-rev were played by actors in costumes and traditional masks. Same with the back-up dancers/singers Greeata Jendowanian, Rystáll Sant and Lyn Me.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by bandit29

Agreed send that to Lucas ASAP!!!

Disagreed. He shouldn't have to release cuts of the films he's unhappy with.

You guys have VHS, Laserdisc, and DVD copies of those cuts to enjoy.

[Chordata]

Originally Posted by Beast

But in the end they're his choices, and he has every right as the creator to make them.

Of course, and no one can dispute that. But we all have the right to form an opinion based upon the work of the creator. There is no right and wrong here.

[AintNoSin]

Originally Posted by Grand Bob

Concerning the light-saber duels, I don't think it's really fair to directly compare the OT duels to the prequels. In the OT, light sabers were a new thing, and CG was relatively primitive.

In the OT's, CG was non-existent. They used old-fashioned rotoscoping effects for the sabers in the OT.

Originally Posted by Gaius Marius

Plus, regarless of how you view the "workprints", they should be included for their historical significance alone. If this were just any movie, then I could live with it. However, Star Wars is just not "any movie". It is a cultural phenomenon, and important in the history of film. The original movies that made history should be included, and fully restored.

Bullseye. If it wasn't for the unprecedented impact of original, unaltered trilogy that we saw in theaters, no one would have cared about the special editions and Lucas would never have had the resources to make his precious prequels. If not for the OOT, Lucas would just be another filmmaker and Skywalker Ranch would probably be condos and a WalMart.

If he can't appreciate his original work for its cultural significance, maybe he can at least recognize the fact that it made him very, very rich.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Well, while I can respect opinions that disagree with my own, I have to take the opinions of anyone who thinks Episode 1 is the best Star Wars movie with a huge... and I mean *HUGE*.... grain of salt.

[MCT]

Originally Posted by Beast

And so what if I consider E1 to be the best film? It's got the richest story of any of the films.

and you know what, Beast? I know exactly what you mean when you say this. In THEORY, it should have been the beginning of a story that put the OT to shame. But the execution was just not there. I honestly can see Lucas' vision in the PT. It should have been grand and epic in scope. Palpatine playing the entire Jedi Order AND his own allies as if they were pawns in his own personal chess game and his seduction of Anakin to the DS was probably the one aspect of the story that Lucas got somewhat right, though I feel he neglected Palpatine's influence on Anakin in AOTC too much to convey a sense of understanding when he finally did. Again, though.....sloppy execution. Had he gotten a more accomplished director/writer to tell his story, as he did with the OT, we wouldn't be having this little debate. I'd probably be the biggest PT fan in the world if he had just gotten it right.

[bandit29]

Originally Posted by Beast

Disagreed. He shouldn't have to release cuts of the films he's unhappy with.

You guys have VHS, Laserdisc, and DVD copies of those cuts to enjoy.

Disagreed. He did release cuts of the films he was unhappy with ...and millions of people loved them apparently

I have no major problems with the SE versions. I actually like most of the changes. They are his movies and he can mold them the way he wants. I get that. However, the originals are a part of film history and they should be preserved in the best way possible. It is his obligation to the art of film making.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by MCT

and you know what, Beast? I know exactly what you mean when you say this. In THEORY, it should have been the beginning of a story that put the OT to shame. But the execution was just not there. I honestly can see Lucas' vision in the PT. It should have been grand and epic in scope. Palpatine playing the entire Jedi Order AND his own allies as if they were pawns in his own personal chess game and his seduction of Anakin to the DS was probably the one aspect of the story that Lucas got somewhat right, though I feel he neglected Palpatine's influence on Anakin in AOTC too much to convey a sense of understanding when he finally did. Again, though.....sloppy execution. Had he gotten a more accomplished director/writer to tell his story, as he did with the OT, we wouldn't be having this little debate. I'd probably be the biggest PT fan in the world if he had just gotten it right.

I very much agree with this.