I feel like the hate toward TPM has already subsided a bit. (I could be wrong)
There's a big gap between hate and love
The CGI is going to look more and more dated and cheesy as digital effects improve. It's already getting there. How will these movies hold up when, say, Avatar 3 comes out? Will the kids who grew up on them still give the prequels the time of day?
Luke and Leia had to have their "Back to the Future" moment, when they both get that "kissing you was like kissing my brother/sister" feeling. Though Luke reacted a little too... pleased. Hmm, i dunno about Luke in that scene now. But yeah, it was purely out of Leia's intention to piss of Han and make him jealous.
And holy crap, does ROTS look freaking gorgeous on blu-ray! I wish there was an isolated score and sound effect track so i could just turn off all of the dialogue.
I really do hope that on a future release we will get isolated scores for each of the six films. It would be so much fun to let the music and the visuals tell the story. But knowing George Lucas and his buddies Ben Burtt and Matt Wood, we will get isolated sound effect tracks instead.
Basically your arguement is that the ONLY legimately objective point of view is your own, and anyone who doesn't 100% agree with you on every little detail about Star Wars is not being objective. I just have to love the hypocracy and the irony.
The same thing could be said about you. You don't tolerate the opinion that all six movies are equally good. I tolerate any opinion even people who don't like Star Wars at all. I just can't stand pitching the two trilogies against each other and trying to blow up the whole saga from the inside. Especially when it concerns people who haven't seen the movies yet and should watch them as the artist intended in chronological order and not in some made up order or backwards or whatever. There IS one legitimate order to watch the movies in and multiple opinions how to watch them in different sequences... You're making a big issue and problem out of the issue and people that haven't seen the movies yet think there is some kind of argument to be had. You have made up your mind about these movies as have I - why shouldn't others be allowed to do the same with this BluRay set?
It's the same with the Matrix trilogy. I really got into Matrix with Reloaded which explored new ground and is my favorite. Many people hate the sequels... But I would never argue to watch Reloaded first, then The Matrix "as a flashback" and then Revolutions...
Just watch movies in order! It's pretty easy... and goes for the Godfather, LotR, Alien, Matrix as well as Star Wars. Why make such a fuzz about it?
Tht's pretty one-sided argument too. You could find equally unexplained points in the OT if you look for them. Why did Han drop Jabbas shipment? We never saw that? Why is the empire so evil and why is there a rebellion? Who is this Senator Organa? He seems to be important but is never shown! What is the dark side of the force? How did Lukes father get killed and why did Vader betray Obi Wan?
The taxation of trade routes is important because it paves the ground for the smugglers and pirates in later episodes like your beloved Han Solo. You don't have to explain the force because most of the protagonists are jedi and know about that. You actually see what jedi can do and they are referencing to the force multiple times. With the midichlorians it is even explained how they can use the force. The important thing is THAT the naboo and the gungans have a symbiotic relationship and not so much HOW. Just like you need to know THAT Han dropped his shipment but not how exactly that happened or if he could have avoided that... When you watch Episode 1 it is pretty clear that the Gungans provide the energy and the Naboo technology and political representation. You can SEE it - you don't have to overexplain things...
I didn't SEE how the Gungans and Naboo people were related at all. They lived underwater, on the opposite side of the planet (right, because didn't Obi, Qui-Gon and Jar Jar have to go through the planet core to get there?). I was only told that in one sentence by Obi-Wan. I don't want things overexplained, i just want the plot to make sense. Actually, that is one of TPM's major problems. Everything is verbalized (yet still doesn't make sense), but nothing is shown (except for Jedi doing some INSANE stuff with lightsabers and over-rehearsed choreography or CGI). But do you think newcomers to the series, especially children, should have the basics of the universe laid out for them somehow? Yes, the Jedi's know all about the Force and the good side/dark side, but what about the audience?
[Show spoiler]This proves that you don't give both trilogies the same chance. From an objective standpoint you could argue that the explanations of the force in later episodes "destroy" the magic and mystery of the first three episodes where the jedi just do this amazing stuff - just like some people argue that the midiclorians do just that... I don't share any of those views.
With the symbolism I'm not just talking about the obvious things (Anakin/Lukes hand; Gungens/Ewoks; Droid-control-ship/Death Star; "This is where the fun begins!" by Anakin/Han; "I have a bad feeling about this"; Qui Gons/Bens death, etc. etc.) but rather the jedi-council as representation of the zodiac, the importance of the anima and shadow-archetypes in the two trilogies; the development and foreshadowing of themes like the dark side in Dooku or the cyborg-idea with Grievous; the various grades of dogmatism and dictatorship (even the jedi are dogmatic); the distinction between the living force and fate; the allusions to Kurosawa, Flash Gordon, Gunga-Din, The Searchers, Forbidden Planet, THX-1138, Shakespeare, world-mythology...
Just think about the grand structure that only reveals itself after watching all the movies: In the PT the jedi dominate the sith (in each new episode one new Sith is introduced) - In the OT the sith dominate the jedi (in each new episode one new jedi is introduced)... This reveals pairs of antagonists with different levels of complexity:
Darth Maul (E1) - Obi Wan (E4)
evil vs good. there is no common ground between them. There is no other solution other than one killing the other.
Darth Tyranus (E2) - Yoda (E5)
aprentice vs master. closer connection. there is new theme to cross to the dark side. from here stems Yodas opinion "Once you start down the dark path, FOREVER will it dominate your destiny."
Darth Vader (E3) - Luke (E6)
father vs son. closest connection. there is the new theme to bring someone back from the dark side. That's the wisdom of Luke against the teachings of Yoda. It's weakened without the PT in mind.
My examples were stronger than yours, even when talking about both trilogies 'rhyming' or making sense, you start talking about Star Wars alluding to old serials...proving that you have no real argument to defend yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamsometal
[Show spoiler]If you're to watch it in order of 1 - 6, i gotta say, had i not already seen 4 - 6 hundreds of times, there's no way i would have stuck around through all of 1 - 3. It's mainly because there isn't a single protagonist the audience can learn about the star wars universe with throughout any of the PT films. Besides being the main hero/protagonist in Star Wars, we learn about the universe, the Force, the Jedi, the Empire, everything we need to know, through Luke and his exploits. In TPM, through Anakin, about an hour into the film, we learn about ... midichlorians. And that's about it. Through, i guess Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, we learn about, trade disputes (that make no sense at all), and really, what else about the Star Wars universe do the Jedi learn in Ep. 1 that are basic, fundamental elements of the stories?
Lucas really gives us nothing, other than 2 Jedi making a boat-load of bad decisions and assumptions out of non-knowledge of the universe. How do the Gungans and Naboo people form a symbiant circle? I dunno, it wasn't explained at all. How would a trade federation blockade stop life as we know it on an entire planet that is full of 1) lush vegetation, 2) some insanely advanced power technology in that Naboo castle, 3) huge oceans full of sea creatures, 4) a people with advanced starships that are capable of lightspeed? I dunno, they never explain that either. That bet between Wato and Qui-gon? What the hell was that? Why are the trade federation aliens in league with some dude in a Sith? Not explained. Why can the Jedi run super fast one time, but never again in the whole movie (especially when Obi-Wan needs to in order to help save his mentor from darth maul)? Not even addressed. Why do they need to investigate the trade federation's capture of Naboo, when the SENATE had the Jedi council send 2 Jedi to negotiate the matter? Wouldn't the fact that the senate was willing to put their trust in these 2 jedi mean they would trust them enough to validate the invasion? I dunno, this damn movie just makes NO SENSE. How's a kid supposed to understand this crap, AND come out of the film with a general knowledge of the star wars universe and the Force?
I agree that the whole pod race thing and bet is the lamest excuse to use expensive CG and to make eye candy. Otherwise, it's senseless and cheap writing. Super speed...used only once in the entire saga. Gotta love KOTOR.
Quote:
Originally Posted by happydood
You can hate the execution of the prequels, but I don't know that you can really argue plot logic in light of the many inconsistencies of the old trilogy and in this established universe. Why does Luke's hand not bleed in Empire like the guy in the Cantina in Star Wars? Why after having the Death Star destroyed through the smallest of Achille's Heel's in Star Wars, would the Empire give it's enemies an even bigger target in Jedi on the Endor Moon? How is Ben Kenobi more powerful after being cut down and what does he do to show it? Lucas doesn't seem to work that way. The stories have what is necessary to move them from point to point even if it's not always done smoothly.
The whole cauterization thing seems to bother a lot, but think about it as IV was thought of a stand alone movie, so nothing was really thought too much about. As to the whole force ghost, things that MAKE SENSE can be left unexplained and still feel 'good', think of how the people from Inception got into dreams, did we ever know how they did that? No.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaft Windu
Tht's pretty one-sided argument too. You could find equally unexplained points in the OT if you look for them. Why did Han drop Jabbas shipment? We never saw that? Why is the empire so evil and why is there a rebellion? Who is this Senator Organa? He seems to be important but is never shown! What is the dark side of the force? How did Lukes father get killed and why did Vader betray Obi Wan?
The taxation of trade routes is important because it paves the ground for the smugglers and pirates in later episodes like your beloved Han Solo. You don't have to explain the force because most of the protagonists are jedi and know about that. You actually see what jedi can do and they are referencing to the force multiple times. With the midichlorians it is even explained how they can use the force. The important thing is THAT the naboo and the gungans have a symbiotic relationship and not so much HOW. Just like you need to know THAT Han dropped his shipment but not how exactly that happened or if he could have avoided that... When you watch Episode 1 it is pretty clear that the Gungans provide the energy and the Naboo technology and political representation. You can SEE it - you don't have to overexplain things...
Again, the OT doesn't rely on things that aren't explained to make it's plot, they're just part of it, things that we are OK without knowing, we already take them for granted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamsometal
I'm not saying the OT doesn't have some plot holes, alot of great films do. What i'm saying is very little, if anything in TPM makes any sense. Or in AOTC for that matter. I guess ROTS sort of makes a little sense (kill Dooku, kill Greivous, end the war. Palpy wants to turn Anakin to the dark side through fear of the loss of a loved one). I've never called Lucas a great writer, but TPM and AOTC are just haphazard messes from beginning to end. They don't really establish the lore the way the original Star Wars did, while maintaining a plot that makes a bare minimum amount of sense. That's all i'm saying.
And holy crap, does ROTS look freaking gorgeous on blu-ray! I wish there was an isolated score and sound effect track so i could just turn off all of the dialogue.
That's all. TPM and AOTC focus on things that make no sense and are so irrelevant to the plot, that you really do not care about them. That's why the movies fail. Trade Federation? Who cares. Even worse, the whole Sypho Dyas thing is one of the biggest WTF moments, one which we'll NEVER know who he was, what he did, NOTHING. Maybe if GL had focused on the Sith, in AOTC, he would've made a more engrossing film noir (Obi-Wan on his detective work).
The same thing could be said about you. You don't tolerate the opinion that all six movies are equally good. I tolerate any opinion even people who don't like Star Wars at all. I just can't stand pitching the two trilogies against each other and trying to blow up the whole saga from the inside. Especially when it concerns people who haven't seen the movies yet and should watch them as the artist intended in chronological order and not in some made up order or backwards or whatever. There IS one legitimate order to watch the movies in and multiple opinions how to watch them in different sequences... You're making a big issue and problem out of the issue and people that haven't seen the movies yet think there is some kind of argument to be had. You have made up your mind about these movies as have I - why shouldn't others be allowed to do the same with this BluRay set?
It's the same with the Matrix trilogy. I really got into Matrix with Reloaded which explored new ground and is my favorite. Many people hate the sequels... But I would never argue to watch Reloaded first, then The Matrix "as a flashback" and then Revolutions...
Just watch movies in order! It's pretty easy... and goes for the Godfather, LotR, Alien, Matrix as well as Star Wars. Why make such a fuzz about it?
We watch all of those in the order they were released.
Your idea of "watching them all in order" wasn't even a remote possibility until 2005. 22 years after Return of the Jedi.
That's basically saying the OT is deficient and can't tell it's own story or stand on it's own, and that the Star Wars story didn't even exist until 6 years ago.
We have all been watching them "in order" for a long, long time.
There IS one legitimate order to watch the movies in and multiple opinions how to watch them in different sequences... You're making a big issue and problem out of the issue and people that haven't seen the movies yet think there is some kind of argument to be had. You have made up your mind about these movies as have I - why shouldn't others be allowed to do the same with this BluRay set?
It's the same with the Matrix trilogy. I really got into Matrix with Reloaded which explored new ground and is my favorite. Many people hate the sequels... But I would never argue to watch Reloaded first, then The Matrix "as a flashback" and then Revolutions...
Just watch movies in order! It's pretty easy... and goes for the Godfather, LotR, Alien, Matrix as well as Star Wars. Why make such a fuzz about it?
Lucas had it all wrong for 22 years?
Hardly the sort of gaffe I'd expect from the mastermind of this alleged great work of art...
Quentin Tarantino said that the Matrix sequels destroyed some of the appeal of the Matrix for him, because the mythology that was left to the imagination is spoiled.
I think the same goes for the PT. It sucks the wonder right out of the stories. It makes the force scientific instead of numinous.
They learn it with the saga unfolding over 6 episodes.
It's funny, for someone so concerned about everyone giving the PT a "fair shake", you do as much as you possibly can to discredit the OT.
You're just glossing over 3 movies that stood the test of time for over 20 years before the PT was made and insisting that the only/best way to view this is to start in 1999 and end in 1977.
People didn't need the first 3 episodes to explain the force or anything to them because the first trilogy released did a fine job of that on it's own.
Maybe if GL had focused on the Sith, in AOTC, he would've made a more engrossing film noir (Obi-Wan on his detective work).
Obi-Wan was a pretty bad detective, a cafe owner, librarian and a group of Younglings could kick his ass in a game of Clue/Cluedo.
As soon as he found the Clones it was like "yeah, I'll take 'em off your hands even though I have no idea who ordered them, what they were for or if they hand any in-built commands...." what if Syfo Dyas turned up afterwards and said "I've come for my Clones.... aww man the boss is really gonna kill me...."
They say don't look a gift horse in the mouth but sometimes they come back to shoot you in it. Repeatedly....
Quentin Tarantino said that the Matrix sequels destroyed some of the appeal of the Matrix for him, because the mythology that was left to the imagination is spoiled.
I think the same goes for the PT. It sucks the wonder right out of the stories. It makes the force scientific instead of numinous.
Although I don't mind the PT so much, I agree that this is true.
The same thing could be said about you. You don't tolerate the opinion that all six movies are equally good. I tolerate any opinion even people who don't like Star Wars at all. I just can't stand pitching the two trilogies against each other and trying to blow up the whole saga from the inside. Especially when it concerns people who haven't seen the movies yet and should watch them as the artist intended in chronological order and not in some made up order or backwards or whatever. There IS one legitimate order to watch the movies in and multiple opinions how to watch them in different sequences... You're making a big issue and problem out of the issue and people that haven't seen the movies yet think there is some kind of argument to be had. You have made up your mind about these movies as have I - why shouldn't others be allowed to do the same with this BluRay set?
It's the same with the Matrix trilogy. I really got into Matrix with Reloaded which explored new ground and is my favorite. Many people hate the sequels... But I would never argue to watch Reloaded first, then The Matrix "as a flashback" and then Revolutions...
Just watch movies in order! It's pretty easy... and goes for the Godfather, LotR, Alien, Matrix as well as Star Wars. Why make such a fuzz about it?
As I keep explaining, The Godfather, Alien, Star Wars and Matrix are stand alone movies, they always have to be first because they establish their worlds, atmosphere, settings, characters, etc. LOTR is one voyage cut into three pieces. The Alien saga is quite weird. The Matrix sequels are basically like LOTR, one voyage cut up in two.
[Show spoiler]Again, until you watch ROTS, you can still argue Darth Vader and Anakin are the same.. IMO, if you watch ROTJ before ROTS, you can still be left wondering (even after Vader and the Emperor calling Luke his son). Just because they had a 'connection' with the force doesn't make people family.
We watch all of those in the order they were released.
Your idea of "watching them all in order" wasn't even a remote possibility until 2005. 22 years after Return of the Jedi.
That's basically saying the OT is deficient and can't tell it's own story or stand on it's own, and that the Star Wars story didn't even exist until 6 years ago.
We have all been watching them "in order" for a long, long time.
You can do whatever you want. Your ship has sailed a long time ago. But why should anyone without any predesposition who watches the movies for the first time adopt your childood-nostalgia?
By the way: You proved my point! You DID watch the OT in order and not TESB as a flashback to ANH... Why is that?
What kind of a question is that even? It's a space opera with a continous storyline, with a beginning and an end and the movies are called Episode 1, Episode 2, Episode 3, Episode 4, Episode 5 and Episode 6. In what order should i watch these?
Obi-Wan was a pretty bad detective, a cafe owner, librarian and a group of Younglings could kick his ass in a game of Clue/Cluedo.
As soon as he found the Clones it was like "yeah, I'll take 'em off your hands even though I have no idea who ordered them, what they were for or if they hand any in-built commands...." what if Syfo Dyas turned up afterwards and said "I've come for my Clones.... aww man the boss is really gonna kill me...."
They say don't look a gift horse in the mouth but sometimes they come back to shoot you in it. Repeatedly....
Obi-Wan was a pretty bad detective, a cafe owner, librarian and a group of Younglings could kick his ass in a game of Clue/Cluedo.
As soon as he found the Clones it was like "yeah, I'll take 'em off your hands even though I have no idea who ordered them, what they were for or if they hand any in-built commands...." what if Syfo Dyas turned up afterwards and said "I've come for my Clones.... aww man the boss is really gonna kill me...."
They say don't look a gift horse in the mouth but sometimes they come back to shoot you in it. Repeatedly....
Exactly! That's what I'm saying, imagine if up to him discovering the clones, that was half of the investigation, then the other half to figure out who Syfo Dyas was and why he ordered the army.
Sloppy writing, just accept it people. There is no shame in accepting one's mistakes. Be humble.
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But yeah, it was purely out of Leia's intention to piss of Han and make him jealous.
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