Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Agent Cooper]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

Which set do you have? Mine is the cardboard digistack one, I'm not sure which tape you're referring to.

It's the UK set - I'll try to explain better:
- the discs are housed in 9 blue tranparent plastic holders all stacked on top of eachother. The last one is glued to the backside of the set and does not flip.

The other 8 are kept in place with a transparent piece of tape on the left side. They are connected with the set cover by this piece of tape only. This tape almost came loose where it connects with the holder glued to the backside (holding the 9th disc) which would have made 8 holders fall completely out of the set. Hope it makes sense.

Edit: others mentioned the difference between the US and UK/EU set so thx. I've edited the other post to reflects this.

[Mavrick]

He means this bit of tape that holds the trays together

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

IMO, it neither helps nor hurts the scene. It's just different. If it had been there from the beginning and Lucas suddenly removed it from the scene, people would be on here *****ing about how stupid the scene is without the dialogue.

And many of the people who defend Lucas to no end, like and praise 99% of the changes, and praise the change to the "Nooooo", would instead be praising the removal of it as being an improvement, more power, and more "symbolic".

It's still a pointless change any just something that's going to stick out like a sore thumb to anyone who has seen the movie several times.

[happydood]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Well, parts of what you say I agree with, others not so much.

IMO, for any art form that is "consumed" via mass replication and distribution (i.e. books, movies, music), once these things are released, there should be at least an ethical obligation to make the original version available going forward. That's not to say that the artist shouldn't have the right to make an alternate version and release it as well, or to make a sequel/prequel that doesn't go over as well as the previous work.

But the way I see it, once something like this is released to the public, in some manner (whether it be big or small) it becomes part of the culture. It becomes a part of many people's lives who experience it. Perhaps a movie holds a special memory for someone because they went on their first date with their spouse to see that movie (as a possible example, amongst many). And they want to be able to get it on Blu-Ray and have the closest possible thing to the theatrical presentation that they saw back at that time. Don't you feel that it's a bit selfish on the part of the artist to deny them that?

Now, this is not just limited to the UOT. While I actually like the change to digitial Yoda in Episode 1, I do think that anyone disapointed by it because they have fond memories of the puppet version from that film has the right to speak up, and that version should also be available as an option.

This isn't just limited to original versions either. The 1997 Special Editions of the OT were a major theatrical event, and are probably the way that many people were introduced to the films. IMO those versions should be made available as well. Then there was the recent announcement by Speilberg that E.T. is being readied for a Blu-Ray release and will likely only include the original version and not the 2002 update. While that is the version that I prefer to get if we are only going to get one, I do feel that for those who want it, the 2002 version should be made available as well. Both versions were sold together on DVD back when it came out, so I don't see why Blu-Ray should be any different.


I agree that artist's shouldn't necessarily pander to the audience. For instance, despite the many complaints that a lot of people (myself included) have about the prequels, it would be absurd to actually expect him to go out of his way to make new, specific changes to the PT movies or to refilm them just to get better performances or things of that nature. That would be pandering. But IMO to release something that already exists and has been released many times before.... that's not pandering. That's just reasonable logic.

And aside from a few exceptions here and there, to put it simply, it is pretty much the standard of the film industry... that the same movies are released on new formats, and the only difference is that they are improved in quality and are in their OAR. There's no hard "law" when it comes to this, but it's kind of one of those "unwritten implied rule" kind of things. Which is why, as I said in my previous post, many more people who currently defend Lucas now would be crying foul if this sort of thing happened more frequently with a lot more movies, because sooner or later it would be bound to effect a movie that they like for what in their opinion would be for the worse.

It only makes sense to make the previously released versions available. And it's just good customer service. Unfortunately when it comes to movie making (or any other mass market art form), you really can't completely separate the artistic aspect from the business aspect. They have to co-exist, cross over, and effect each other at some point or another. It's just the nature of the beast. And in business, it's pretty much a standard to please your customers to get the to come back for more. That doesn't mean that you "pander" to them by letting them just walk all over you, but at the same time denying them a highly demanded product that already exists, has been sold to them in some form in the past, and that you have the complete absolute power to further provide them is just not good business.


Can you imagine the backlash that would happen if Ringo Star and Paul McCartney (the 2 surviving original group members) got together now and decided to remix each and every Beatles song, adding in things here and there like additional instruments not used in the original recordings (in some cases instruments that didn't exist back in the 60s), or adding additional lyrics to the songs, in some cases using modern artists for them, and then ONLY releasing them that way going forward, not allowing the original versions ever to be released again? All hell would break loose! And for good reason.

So, I do feel that once something is released, there is a certain obligation for future accessability of that content.

I don't agree with The Beatles analogy as each distinctive personality in that band had very specific contributions to the final result. Final decision were made together and no one Beatle had final say. Well, maybe Ringo didn't have as great a say....

But with Lucas, the intellectual property does belong to him and people working for him understood that he had final say on the whole thing. So even the moral issue here is a complicated one in terms of what he owes the people whose contributions he's altering. Now, having said that, I agree that the best thing to do to appease fans would be to release the UOT in the best possible format. I prefer that release and I think it would be great if it were available. But the films are still available and were made available to those who wanted them. Granted, in universally acknowledged sub-par transfers. But they WERE made available.

But let me add another analogy. Is Universal morally obligated to release the Classic Monster Collection to Blu? No, and rumor is that they don't see it as financially beneficial to. One could argue these films need to be preserved forever. And a few are. At least Dracula, Frankenstein, and Bride of Frankenstein are believed to be culturally significant enough to preserve- and of course the rest deserve to be as well. But that doesn't mean Universal is obligated to spend it's money to re-release them on a new format. It may turn out that these films get forgotten (I hope to god, not) by the next generation if they aren't released on a new format, but there's no moral obligation here. Disagree with it or not, it's the way it is.

[bboisvert]

Originally Posted by LetoAtreides82

Things that surprised me
1. Near the beginning when Anakin disrespects Obi-Wan I was shocked. He seems so different now that he's grown up. I thought they were about to fight.

Wait until III and IV when you hear what "good friends" they were.


I'm sure some SW apologists will be here soon to explain how in the comics or video games they had experiences which led to a strong friendship. But it sure as hell didn't make it into the films.

[The Bread]

Originally Posted by bboisvert

Wait until III and IV when you hear what "good friends" they were.


I'm sure some SW apologists will be here soon to explain how in the comics or video games they had experiences which led to a strong friendship. But it sure as hell didn't make it into the films.

The span between the film is 10 years....might have had some good times in there.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by The Bread

I actually agree with you on most of your points...believe me. I do. What I'm saying is...it looks much better than any standard dvd I have by XXXX.

Blu-Ray is helping me to enjoy this franchise more. I don't have a problem with film grain or even smoothness in a picture as long as it looks banging.

The reality of the situation is...the creators of the flicks decided to presented in the manner it is. Maybe the 35 MM looked gash in blu-ray without the effects. You wouldn't know.

Regarding I notice you edited your post to include "WGAS WGAF"... well if you don't care and just want to "enjoy the movies", there's no sense even bothering with HD. That's where we differ.[/

TPM HD blows any non HD (DVD etc...) out of the water. There is a huge difference between the blu-ray and dvd....that is what I'm saying. Enough of a difference for me to consider it Blu-Ray. I can but it in after any blu ray in my collection and the quality stands up. Is it the most detailed flick? No. Does it look awful? My God no! That's all I'm saying.

Ok, maybe it just comes down to differing views, and maybe I'm being hyperbolic when I say "awful", but to me excessive DNR really neuters the look of a film that could have looked exponentially better.

Yes, it's a clear improvement over DVD, and in other cases like The Big Lebowski and Scarface, I ponied up the dough for the movie anyway, knowing that while it wasn't as good as it should be, it was the best representation that I could own, so I took it for what it is.

I am doing the same for The Phantom Menace, but I do take issue with it being the way it is when it could have easily looked better. That's all.

I really do love this set, watching the films has been sparking a lot of childhood memories and I feel great about the bonus features and the PQ most of the time being great or even excellent. I actually like the prequel trilogy a LOT more on second viewing, and am finding a lot more to like about it than I did when I saw them theatrically. I just think if they had taken a little more time with this set and exercised a little more TLC, it could have been the truly definitive set that I feel like we were promised.

If TPM had PQ on par with at least AOTC, and ROTS' mix had the same frequency range on display as TPM/AOTC, this would be a fantastic set on the technical side.

[happydood]

Originally Posted by bboisvert

Wait until III and IV when you hear what "good friends" they were.


I'm sure some SW apologists will be here soon to explain how in the comics or video games they had experiences which led to a strong friendship. But it sure as hell didn't make it into the films.

That's not what an apologist is in this context, exactly. An apologist would defend the actual execution of the film itself as criticism is applied to it. The expanded universe has nothing to do with it since 'Lucas apologists' defend his decisions and he doesn't refer to the expanded universe.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by Agent Cooper

It's the UK set - I'll try to explain better:
- the discs are housed in 9 blue tranparent plastic holders all stacked on top of eachother. The last one is glued to the backside of the set and does not flip.

The other 8 are kept in place with a transparent piece of tape on the left side. They are connected with the set cover by this piece of tape only. This tape almost came loose where it connects with the holder glued to the backside (holding the 9th disc) which would have made 8 holders fall completely out of the set. Hope it makes sense.

Edit: others mentioned the difference between the US and UK/EU set so thx. I've edited the other post to reflects this.

Ahhh! That sucks man. Sorry to hear it.

I don't like that my discs have no choice but to be pressed against cardboard every time I remove them or insert them into the packaging, but the box itself seems quite sturdy.

UK box art and disc art seems nicer, but I guess the trade-off is the questionable packaging.

[Hatter]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Can you imagine the backlash that would happen if Ringo Star and Paul McCartney (the 2 surviving original group members) got together now and decided to remix each and every Beatles song, adding in things here and there like additional instruments not used in the original recordings (in some cases instruments that didn't exist back in the 60s), or adding additional lyrics to the songs, in some cases using modern artists for them, and then ONLY releasing them that way going forward, not allowing the original versions ever to be released again? All hell would break loose! And for good reason.

So, I do feel that once something is released, there is a certain obligation for future accessability of that content.

Well um, they did remix several of the songs. Beatles Love ring a bell? Difference is, that was specific to a Cirque show where remixing was done to better fit the kind of performances they do. Do they lock the originals in a vault though? Not a chance. They're still the main attraction.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by Hatter

Well um, they did remix several of the songs. Beatles Love ring a bell? Difference is, that was specific to a Cirque show where remixing was done to better fit the kind of performances they do. Do they lock the originals in a vault though? Not a chance. They're still the main attraction.

That's just it. Tinker to your hearts content, George, but why deprive people of an already-existing version they have known and loved for so long?

Coppola released the Apocalypse Now Redux, and it includes a SUBSTANTIAL amount of new content that drastically alters the entire movie... however, he released the original in the same package, with the same care and attention to detail. Many other films have special editions, but allow you the option of watching the theatrical edition.

I don't feel like it's selfish to ask for that.

[dookiex]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

And many of the people who defend Lucas to no end, like and praise 99% of the changes, and praise the change to the "Nooooo", would instead be praising the removal of it as being an improvement, more power, and more "symbolic".

It's still a pointless change any just something that's going to stick out like a sore thumb to anyone who has seen the movie several times.

Actually, it's not a pointless change. With the added bit, we are now completely clear about what Vader thought about the whole thing when Luke is about to get killed by the Emperor. Without the dialogue, it was somewhat vague (which of course, people learned to love and applaud as being more subtle, it's not really more subtle folks, it's just vague, how are we the audience supposed to know what kind of emotions Vader is showing at that point? From his processed breathing? Immovable mask expressions? Hand gestures? Mime his state of mind?). I think this is one of those nagging issues that Lucas probably found after the film released and had always wanted to go back and tweak. Well, here finally got to tweak it, just a few decades later is all.

[Hatter]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

That's just it. Tinker to your hearts content, George, but why deprive people of an already-existing version they have known and loved for so long?

Coppola released the Apocalypse Now Redux, and it includes a SUBSTANTIAL amount of new content that drastically alters the entire movie... however, he released the original in the same package, with the same care and attention to detail. Many other films have special editions, but allow you the option of watching the theatrical edition.

I don't feel like it's selfish to ask for that.

I don't see how that can be selfish either. All the other bigtime directors make the original versions available next to the director's cut. Cameron said Aliens director's cut is the way to go. Whether its true or not I'm free to decide for myself since both versions are included.

[happydood]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

That's just it. Tinker to your hearts content, George, but why deprive people of an already-existing version they have known and loved for so long?

Coppola released the Apocalypse Now Redux, and it includes a SUBSTANTIAL amount of new content that drastically alters the entire movie... however, he released the original in the same package, with the same care and attention to detail. Many other films have special editions, but allow you the option of watching the theatrical edition.

I don't feel like it's selfish to ask for that.

It's not selfish to ask for it, but it's also not necessarily selfish of him to refuse to release it if it doesn't make business sense to him since he's already put up the money to release the, once again admittedly sub-par, 2006 edition. And I'm not defending him, exactly. I just understand why it wasn't release in a way that some people would have liked.

[42041]

Originally Posted by dookiex

(which of course, people learned to love and applaud as being more subtle, it's not really more subtle folks, it's just vague, how are we the audience supposed to know what kind of emotions Vader is showing at that point? From his processed breathing? Immovable mask expressions? Hand gestures? Mime his state of mind?)

er, because he kills the Emperor? i never thought it was particularly difficult to grasp

[The Bread]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

Ok, maybe it just comes down to differing views, and maybe I'm being hyperbolic when I say "awful", but to me excessive DNR really neuters the look of a film that could have looked exponentially better.

Yes, it's a clear improvement over DVD, and in other cases like The Big Lebowski and Scarface, I ponied up the dough for the movie anyway, knowing that while it wasn't as good as it should be, it was the best representation that I could own, so I took it for what it is.

I am doing the same for The Phantom Menace, but I do take issue with it being the way it is when it could have easily looked better. That's all.

I really do love this set, watching the films has been sparking a lot of childhood memories and I feel great about the bonus features and the PQ most of the time being great or even excellent. I actually like the prequel trilogy a LOT more on second viewing, and am finding a lot more to like about it than I did when I saw them theatrically. I just think if they had taken a little more time with this set and exercised a little more TLC, it could have been the truly definitive set that I feel like we were promised.

If TPM had PQ on par with at least AOTC, and ROTS' mix had the same frequency range on display as TPM/AOTC, this would be a fantastic set on the technical side.

Totally get it. I really do.

I guess what I'm saying is - since this one was shot in 35mm....maybe the interplay between digital elements and natural environments translated poorly in blu-ray. Remember - it was 1999. They didn't exactly nail the realism in TPM to being with. The Matrix (which was leaps beyond most films in quality) also came out this year. That was an example of greatness. It was hard to distunguish between digital and other elements.

I'm literally asking b/c I don't know - Could the quality of blu-ray have amplified how "unrealistic" a digital element would look (and create the need for dnr?)? Without the noise could the digital elements look even more unrealistic in blu?

Like I said - I'm asking so I have no idea.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by bboisvert

Wait until III and IV when you hear what "good friends" they were.


I'm sure some SW apologists will be here soon to explain how in the comics or video games they had experiences which led to a strong friendship. But it sure as hell didn't make it into the films.

Apparently you missed their friendly conversation before that in the Elevator. Or in other scenes in the film.

And their friendly banter during RotS. Sure they disagree during that scene, but the friendly/brotherly relationship is there.

[dookiex]

Originally Posted by 42041

er, because he kills the Emperor? i never thought it was particularly difficult to grasp

It's not just the killing the Emperor. We're talking about trying to display emotion from what is essentially a giant block of plastic. You basically can't. Yes we understand why he did it, but it's a bit muddy as to the emotions Vader was showing in the scene. Adding the bit of "noooooo!" in this case actually does make sense and really doesn't hurt the film.

Think about it, those who claim that the original cut was better because it was more subtle with it, what was subtle about it exactly? That we're staring at plastic with no way of knowing if Vader was non-chalant or if he really did care about Luke as a father would seeing his son getting fried? The original was subtle about it, it was just a missed chance for emitting emotion. It's not a stretch of imagination for one to think that Lucas one day just got hit with the idea of adding "nooooo!" as the solution for showing more emotion for Vader in that shot, then he went and did it.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by dookiex

Actually, it's not a pointless change. With the added bit, we are now completely clear about what Vader thought about the whole thing when Luke is about to get killed by the Emperor. Without the dialogue, it was somewhat vague (which of course, people learned to love and applaud as being more subtle, it's not really more subtle folks, it's just vague, how are we the audience supposed to know what kind of emotions Vader is showing at that point? From his processed breathing? Immovable mask expressions? Hand gestures? Mime his state of mind?). I think this is one of those nagging issues that Lucas probably found after the film released and had always wanted to go back and tweak. Well, here finally got to tweak it, just a few decades later is all.

Eh? Not trying to fan the flames, but how is it "vague"? Seriously, he picks up the Emperor after several very obvious shots of him looking at two different things, a classic movie tactic when someone is making a decision, then he throws his Master down a shaft to his death.

It's not even remotely vague. I can't imagine a single person going "how did he feel about this situation? Was he... mad at the Emperor? Naaaaw".

The Nooooooo doesn't bother me that much, it really doesn't, but it's a pointless and superfluous change, and I have a hard time believing it cleared anything up for anyone who was confused as to what was happening there or how he felt about the situation.

The old version had subtlety. It was about what wasn't being said. I thought that was more artistic (which ROTJ desperately needed) and the new version is just more hammy and obvious.

[Hatter]

Originally Posted by dookiex

It's not just the killing the Emperor. We're talking about trying to display emotion from what is essentially a giant block of plastic. You basically can't. Yes we understand why he did it, but it's a bit muddy as to the emotions Vader was showing in the scene. Adding the bit of "noooooo!" in this case actually does make sense and really doesn't hurt the film.

Think about it, those who claim that the original cut was better because it was more subtle with it, what was subtle about it exactly? That we're staring at plastic with no way of knowing if Vader was non-chalant or if he really did care about Luke as a father would seeing his son getting fried? The original was subtle about it, it was just a missed chance for emitting emotion. It's not a stretch of imagination for one to think that Lucas one day just got hit with the idea of adding "nooooo!" as the solution for showing more emotion for Vader in that shot, then he went and did it.

I guess you need it spelled out for you. How many times does it cut to Vader's mask during that scene. It's like do it, do it, DO IT, SAVE YOUR SON! I can see the struggle without words.