Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Steelmaker]

Originally Posted by dookiex

It's not just the killing the Emperor. We're talking about trying to display emotion from what is essentially a giant block of plastic. You basically can't. Yes we understand why he did it, but it's a bit muddy as to the emotions Vader was showing in the scene. Adding the bit of "noooooo!" in this case actually does make sense and really doesn't hurt the film.

Think about it, those who claim that the original cut was better because it was more subtle with it, what was subtle about it exactly? That we're staring at plastic with no way of knowing if Vader was non-chalant or if he really did care about Luke as a father would seeing his son getting fried? The original was subtle about it, it was just a missed chance for emitting emotion. It's not a stretch of imagination for one to think that Lucas one day just got hit with the idea of adding "nooooo!" as the solution for showing more emotion for Vader in that shot, then he went and did it.

Honestly, I pretty much got it when Vader was turning back and forth, looking at Luke, then looking at the Emperor, then looking at Luke, etc. I knew exactly what was going through his mind.

Like I said, I'm fine with the No's. Whatever. It neither helps, nor hurts the scene imo.

[Kryptonic]

I imagine that after the impending apocalypse there will still be one constant - people will still be arguing over Star Wars. That's kind of comforting and depressing all at the same time.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by 42041

er, because he kills the Emperor? i never thought it was particularly difficult to grasp

+1

The first time I saw this movie I was literally 3 or 4 years old, and I have never been confused about what happened. It was such a dramatic victory for me as a child. YAY! Darth saves Luke! He is his Dad, he does still care about him!

Neither was I confused about Sebastian Shaw being the ghost, since we'd just seen his face mere moments before.

I think some people underestimate the audience, Lucas included.

Irvin Kershner having to fight to keep Han saying "I know" instead of "I love you" is indicative of this.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by happydood

I don't agree with The Beatles analogy as each distinctive personality in that band had very specific contributions to the final result. Final decision were made together and no one Beatle had final say. Well, maybe Ringo didn't have as great a say....

My point was more so the public reaction to it. Even if the other band members were still alive and all agreed on the decision, the backlash would be just as powerful if something like that were to happen.

But with Lucas, the intellectual property does belong to him and people working for him understood that he had final say on the whole thing. So even the moral issue here is a complicated one in terms of what he owes the people whose contributions he's altering. Now, having said that, I agree that the best thing to do to appease fans would be to release the UOT in the best possible format. I prefer that release and I think it would be great if it were available. But the films are still available and were made available to those who wanted them. Granted, in universally acknowledged sub-par transfers. But they WERE made available.

But let me add another analogy. Is Universal morally obligated to release the Classic Monster Collection to Blu? No, and rumor is that they don't see it as financially beneficial to. One could argue these films need to be preserved forever. And a few are. At least Dracula, Frankenstein, and Bride of Frankenstein are believed to be culturally significant enough to preserve- and of course the rest deserve to be as well. But that doesn't mean Universal is obligated to spend it's money to re-release them on a new format. It may turn out that these films get forgotten (I hope to god, not) by the next generation if they aren't released on a new format, but there's no moral obligation here. Disagree with it or not, it's the way it is.

This is where we do get into a bit of a gray area. Yeah, there is the issue of reissuing movies on new formats that may not sell well enough to justify the cost of releasing them. It's possibly the only rational reason that I can understand. But there are loopholes and gray areas... i.e. WB's DVD MOD program where movies that probably wouldn't sell well at retail can be manufactured on demand (sure it's a DVD-R and not a normal, manufactured DVD, but it's better than nothing).

Now, granted, currently that's just DVD and not Blu-Ray. But it's pheasable that once it becomes cost effective to do so, they might expand that to Blu-Ray. Perhaps other studios should follow suit for potentially low-selling releases.

Of course Lucas has made the cost arguement of restoring the UOT, which if true could effect protiability... but come on, this is STAR WARS. There are probably enough people within the industry who would love to see the original versions released again who would be willing to work at a discount or for free in their spare time to help restore it. There are ways around this issue. This isn't just some rinky-dink movie we are talking about here.

IMO a mega set including the UOT, his newest editions, and maybe the 1997 SE would be awesome.

[Hatter]

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

I imagine that after the impending apocalypse there will still be one constant - people will still be arguing over Star Wars. That's kind of comforting and depressing all at the same time.

In Hell it will be

All the Heavenly people will be free to watch any version they like

[WJWS Channel 13:Amity]

Originally Posted by Pondosinatra

Ok, so I just finished ROTJ......

On the subject of the Ewoks blinking. Ok, they made Wicket blink. It actually looked ok. But then why the F did they not make any other Ewok blink????

What the hell was the point?

And the Noooooooo! wasn't as bad as I anticipated, although it completely was unnecessary.

Finally, I actually threw up in my mouth when I saw Hayden Christiansen at the end of the movie with Obi Wan and Yoda. Completely and totally unnecessary!!!!

Screw you Lucas!

I think i have an idea why he replaced anakin in a ROTJ.
when you think about it anakin is what in his early to mid 20s in ROTS
and ROTJ takes place roughly 20 -22 years after ROTS, which would place anakin in his mid 40s no where near as old as Sebastian Shaw looks as the force ghost. I think that changing Shaw to Christiansan was lucas trying to correct for that. Was it a good idea, perhaps not but I can get what he was trying to do. Now if the fall of Anakin Skywalker Trilogy started say 30 years prior to the start of the Luke Skywalker Trilogy( or if Anakin was allready 19 or 20 in Phantom menace like Luke was in ANH) then yeah shaw would make more sense. Or if the force ghost of Shaw's Anakin had scars and burns on his face like he did when luke took off Vaders Helmet, then leaving shaw in would have been a given.

Also those who say luke would be wondering who the heck this guy is standing with Obi wan and yoda arent really giving him enough credit.
Luke knows that certain Jedi like Obi Wan have the ability to retain their physical apperance when they join with the force, and seeing yoda standing next to Obi Wan its not to difficult for him to know that the guy standing next to him is redeemed dad.

having said that i would have prefered it as it was originally released with Sebastian shaw I am just offering a theory as why Lucas altered it.


Keep in mind it could have been worse, Lucas could have completely removed shaw from ROTJ all togeather and inserted Christiansan as Anakin when the helmet was removed.

[longhornsgirl]

Originally Posted by bboisvert

Wait until III and IV when you hear what "good friends" they were.


I'm sure some SW apologists will be here soon to explain how in the comics or video games they had experiences which led to a strong friendship. But it sure as hell didn't make it into the films.

There is no way to explain it. What matters is what is on film and we did not get to see any of that on film.

[longhornsgirl]

Originally Posted by backgroundactorman

Keep in mind it could have been worse, Lucas could have completely removed shaw from ROTJ all togeather and inserted Christiansan as Anakin when the helmet was removed.

Don't give him anymore ideas.

[KubrickFan]

Originally Posted by The Bread

Just want to note - not trying to be combative in WGAS. Just don't get the gripe - the version I'm seeing on blu-ray is far better than any before.

And like I said - maybe the 35mm on blu looked worse without the DNR. We don't really know right? Trust the creators and don't act like we're in a board room discussing how we should launch the blu-ray (without seeing ANYTHING). We haven't even seen it without the dnr applied.

Everybody be well! Enjoy the flicks!!!

How can 35mm film look worse before it's been tampered with? True, the difference between the CGI and live-action will be visible, but that's alreay the case with the DNR. In any case, a hint of grain might have given the CGI a bit more realism.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by The Bread

Totally get it. I really do.

I guess what I'm saying is - since this one was shot in 35mm....maybe the interplay between digital elements and natural environments translated poorly in blu-ray. Remember - it was 1999. They didn't exactly nail the realism in TPM to being with. The Matrix (which was leaps beyond most films in quality) also came out this year. That was an example of greatness. It was hard to distunguish between digital and other elements.

I'm literally asking b/c I don't know - Could the quality of blu-ray have amplified how "unrealistic" a digital element would look (and create the need for dnr?)? Without the noise could the digital elements look even more unrealistic in blu?

Like I said - I'm asking so I have no idea.

You're likely right, they may have tried to smooth the image out to make the CG stick out less, but to anyone paying attention it's kind of a lost cause because the bad CG goes deeper than just the textures on the character models... the animation is unrealistic and the character models themselves aren't made of as many polygons as they are today.

So the CG was going to look dated regardless, they might as well have just made it the best it could look everywhere else. The way it is now it kind of cuts off it's nose to spite it's face, if you get my drift.

It's a side point, but the reason Lord of the Rings will still look good and be rather impressive in 10 or 20 years is because they used live actors and models for as much of it as possible. Peter Jackson specifically shied away from overuse of CG (and honestly what is there, like Gollum and the Balrog, still look great today, though not quite up to Rise of the Planet of the Apes levels) because he didn't want his movie to age badly. George on the other hand got excited with all the CG toys and the ease of "directing" them and circumventing the use of annoying actors and extras, and it hurts the first movie a little bit IMO. Whenever Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon look at a CG character, it really looks kind of "off", doesn't it?

I wouldn't be surprised to see TPM and AOTC reworked in 5 or more years to replace all the CG with new CG, and I honestly wouldn't have a problem with that because what is there doesn't often work as good as it should. ROTS actually holds up pretty well.

Just my $0.02.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Beast

Apparently you missed their friendly conversation before that in the Elevator. Or in other scenes in the film.

And their friendly banter during RotS. Sure they disagree during that scene, but the friendly/brotherly relationship is there.

Having just recently rewatched the prequels for the first time in a while, I will say that there is definately evidence of their friendship in those scenes (probably more so than I remember there being), and while it could have been worse, it's still them having friendly banter and conversations largely about past experiences that we never got to see, and those events, themselves (or something similar to them) would probably have done a better job of actually SHOWING us their friendship than us hearing about these events after the fact.

You are the one who keeps saying that the movie shouldn't have to "stop to explain things to us", but that's pretty much what is happening when we get scenes like this as opposed to scenes where they are actually laughing and being friendly about some odd situation that they are currently in.

We see Obi Wan talking to Luke in Episode IV fondly reminicing about past times with Anakin. Naturally in the PT, it would be logical to expect to actually see some of those times. Instead, we mainly see him reminicing about them with Anakin instead of Luke.

[dookiex]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

Eh? Not trying to fan the flames, but how is it "vague"? Seriously, he picks up the Emperor after several very obvious shots of him looking at two different things, a classic movie tactic when someone is making a decision, then he throws his Master down a shaft to his death.

It's not even remotely vague. I can't imagine a single person going "how did he feel about this situation? Was he... mad at the Emperor? Naaaaw".

The Nooooooo doesn't bother me that much, it really doesn't, but it's a pointless and superfluous change, and I have a hard time believing it cleared anything up for anyone who was confused as to what was happening there or how he felt about the situation.

The old version had subtlety. It was about what wasn't being said. I thought that was more artistic (which ROTJ desperately needed) and the new version is just more hammy and obvious.

It's hammy because it changes something that most people are so familiar with. I'm not a crazy Star Wars nut, I love the movies as I grew up with them but at the end of the day, I treat it as a film just like I would treat every other film. I have ones I revisit and ones I despise. I obviously revisit Star Wars from time to time (have them on retail VHS and now and blu ray). As a device for showing emotion, the addition of "nooooooo!" makes sense and at the minimum, adds another layer of emotion. I'm obviously not the only one who thinks this since Lucas did put the sound bite into the film after all and he must have thought of the same thing.

At the end of the day, it may not be an addition that takes away from the film. A lot of Star Wars fans on here of course has stated how it doesn't hurt or take away from the film nor do they feel like it adds anything to it. That's fine, no foul in adding the "noooooo!" Then on the other hand, there's people like myself who sees it for what it is, a device to draw out more emotion from Vader, so for us, this actually does add to the film. So was it a necessary addition? It certainly doesn't hurt it, what it does hurt is the feeling of shock when it comes completely unexpected from a film that people practically memorized shot for shot line for line. Sorry to kill your fantasies Star Wars fanatics, this is at the end of the day a narrative told by George Lucas and it is his living breathing baby. After all, George Lucas did not go around asking people what they liked before he went out to shoot the original Star Wars now did he?

There's one problem with Star Wars just like anything that becomes a pop culture staple, people tend to see it as being perfect with warts and all but when clean up is done on it, they will backlash.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by backgroundactorman

I think i have an idea why he replaced anakin in a ROTJ.
when you think about it anakin is what in his early to mid 20s in ROTS
and ROTJ takes place roughly 20 -22 years after ROTS, which would place anakin in his mid 40s no where near as old as Sebastian Shaw looks as the force ghost. I think that changing Shaw to Christiansan was lucas trying to correct for that. Was it a good idea, perhaps not but I can get what he was trying to do. Now if the fall of Anakin Skywalker Trilogy started say 30 years prior to the start of the Luke Skywalker Trilogy( or if Anakin was allready 19 or 20 in Phantom menace like Luke was in ANH) then yeah shaw would make more sense. Or if the force ghost of Shaw's Anakin had scars and burns on his face like he did when luke took off Vaders Helmet, then leaving shaw in would have been a given.

Also those who say luke would be wondering who the heck this guy is standing with Obi wan and yoda arent really giving him enough credit.
Luke knows that certain Jedi like Obi Wan have the ability to retain their physical apperance when they join with the force, and seeing yoda standing next to Obi Wan its not to difficult for him to know that the guy standing next to him is redeemed dad.

having said that i would have prefered it as it was originally released with Sebastian shaw I am just offering a theory as why Lucas altered it.


Keep in mind it could have been worse, Lucas could have completely removed shaw from ROTJ all togeather and inserted Christiansan as Anakin when the helmet was removed.

Well... they used a separate actor for Darth's physical acting, his voice, and his face... there was no need to have Sebastian Shaw there at all. They could have picked any actor that represented that look better.

I just don't like the flimsy excuse that his ghost represents when he died as a Jedi, that just seems so nonsensical... one of those, "Well TECHNICALLY..." explanations that are pure retcon. If that were the case, the Force ghost could have been a younger actor than Sebastian Shaw. It's not like technology precluded them from hiring a young actor that resembled Luke for that one shot. It's just retcon that in my opinion doesn't need to be retconned.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by dookiex

It's hammy because it changes something that most people are so familiar with. I'm not a crazy Star Wars nut, I love the movies as I grew up with them but at the end of the day, I treat it as a film just like I would treat every other film. I have ones I revisit and ones I despise. I obviously revisit Star Wars from time to time (have them on retail VHS and now and blu ray). As a device for showing emotion, the addition of "nooooooo!" makes sense and at the minimum, adds another layer of emotion. I'm obviously not the only one who thinks this since Lucas did put the sound bite into the film after all and he must have thought of the same thing.

At the end of the day, it may not be an addition that takes away from the film. A lot of Star Wars fans on here of course has stated how it doesn't hurt or take away from the film nor do they feel like it adds anything to it. That's fine, no foul in adding the "noooooo!" Then on the other hand, there's people like myself who sees it for what it is, a device to draw out more emotion from Vader, so for us, this actually does add to the film. So was it a necessary addition? It certainly doesn't hurt it, what it does hurt is the feeling of shock when it comes completely unexpected from a film that people practically memorized shot for shot line for line. Sorry to kill your fantasies Star Wars fanatics, this is at the end of the day a narrative told by George Lucas and it is his living breathing baby. After all, George Lucas did not go around asking people what they liked before he went out to shoot the original Star Wars now did he?

There's one problem with Star Wars just like anything that becomes a pop culture staple, people tend to see it as being perfect with warts and all but when clean up is done on it, they will backlash.

No, it's hammy because it didn't need to be said. The scene worked without any additional information.

It would be like in American Beauty, if

[Show spoiler]Chris Cooper walked up behind Kevin Spacey before he shot him, and said "I am conflicted about my homosexuality!"

The viewer should be given enough credit to be able to gather what the characters motivation is without him screaming out the word "NOOOO!"

Look at how many times the camera shows Vader looking left to right, back and forth at The Emperor and Luke. It was already extremely obvious because of how it was shot. There really was no need to do that.

But obviously, horses for courses...

[bboisvert]

Originally Posted by The Bread

The span between the film is 10 years....might have had some good times in there.

That's the span between I and II. He's talking about a scene in II.

Originally Posted by Beast

Apparently you missed their friendly conversation before that in the Elevator. Or in other scenes in the film.

And their friendly banter during RotS. Sure they disagree during that scene, but the friendly/brotherly relationship is there.

Come on... they are at each other's throats for nearly the entire time in II & III. One brief smile about falling into a nest of gundarks is supposed to show a "brotherly" relationship?


Obi-Wan is pissy with him about monitoring Padme, he's short with him during the speeder chase, he calls him arrogant,

"It's all Obi-Wan's fault. He's jealous."

Yeah, they're "good friends".


It's terrible, terrible frickin screenwriting. You can't just say something that hasn't been demonstrated over the course of THREE movies and just magically make it true.

[LetoAtreides82]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

Well... they used a separate actor for Darth's physical acting, his voice, and his face... there was no need to have Sebastian Shaw there at all. They could have picked any actor that represented that look better.

I just don't like the flimsy excuse that his ghost represents when he died as a Jedi, that just seems so nonsensical... one of those, "Well TECHNICALLY..." explanations that are pure retcon. If that were the case, the Force ghost could have been a younger actor than Sebastian Shaw. It's not like technology precluded them from hiring a young actor that resembled Luke for that one shot. It's just retcon that in my opinion doesn't need to be retconned.

How about the ghost represents the way he sees himself? He wouldn't see himself as an old adult because that's not Anakin that's Vader.

[Bluyoda]

Originally Posted by s2mikey

Ditto. Most of the updates are welcomed as far as Im concerned. The OT lines up better with the PT with the updated backgrounds and effects. And yes - Christiansen replacing Shaw is a no-brainer despite what the haters say about it for the exact reason you mentioned. Of course, we ALL hate the Greedo shooting first thing or the terrible new song on Jabbas barge. And, I can certainly do without another lame "Nooooooo"!

Don't speak for me, as I couldn't care less about who shoots first, and I actually like the Nos in ROTJ.

[Bluyoda]

Did anyone notice the DNRd shot of Coruscant in ROTS?
It's one of the first times we get to see Coruscant, after the landing I think.

It's really awful. Looks like a watercolor painting now.

That was REALLY unnecessary.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Having just recently rewatched the prequels for the first time in a while, I will say that there is definately evidence of their friendship in those scenes (probably more so than I remember there being), and while it could have been worse, it's still them having friendly banter and conversations largely about past experiences that we never got to see, and those events, themselves (or something similar to them) would probably have done a better job of actually SHOWING us their friendship than us hearing about these events after the fact.

You are the one who keeps saying that the movie shouldn't have to "stop to explain things to us", but that's pretty much what is happening when we get scenes like this as opposed to scenes where they are actually laughing and being friendly about some odd situation that they are currently in.

We see Obi Wan talking to Luke in Episode IV fondly reminicing about past times with Anakin. Naturally in the PT, it would be logical to expect to actually see some of those times. Instead, we mainly see him reminicing about them with Anakin instead of Luke.

Agreed, totally.

I think the whole PT would have been better if they skipped The Phantom Menace entirely. They could have discovered Anakin when he was older and spent the next movie exploring him and Obi-Wan's exploits with him as a legitimately great person, a hero, a champion. That would have made him a much more sympathetic character and made his transition to the Dark Side that much more intense. Imagine Qui-Gonn being seduced by the Dark Side. A guy that devout and heroic becoming purely evil would have a serious impact.

As of now you get a sorta whiney kid, then an overly brooding young adult who says things like "IT'S NOT FAIR!" and pouts a lot.

It still works in it's own way, but I think they could have done a lot more to flesh out Anakin/Obi-Wans relationship and make Anakin into a more sympathetic and empathetic character before his eventual turn.

I would have even liked the over-the-top style of Ian McDiarmid embracing his role as the Emperor/Sith Lord at the end of ROTS compared to the sort of wimpy melodrama we currently get.

Not trying to slander the movie BTW, after this recent viewing I actually quite like ROTS and would go as far as to call it a legitimately good movie.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by LetoAtreides82

How about the ghost represents the way he sees himself? He wouldn't see himself as an old adult because that's not Anakin that's Vader.

"Let me look upon you with my own eyes" - Anakin, as Sebastian Shaw.

Objection overruled.