Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[tigertron]

Originally Posted by Bluyoda

Did anyone notice the DNRd shot of Coruscant in ROTS?
It's one of the first times we get to see Coruscant, after the landing I think.

It's really awful. Looks like a watercolor painting now.

That was REALLY unnecessary.

I never noticed that, infact I thought the Coruscant shots looked pretty breathtaking.

[LetoAtreides82]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

"Let me look upon you with my own eyes" - Anakin, as Sebastian Shaw.

Objection overruled.

That's while he's still in his physical body. There are some who believe that ghosts choose a form that best represents them, which would explain him choosing his younger self.

[dookiex]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

No, it's hammy because it didn't need to be said. The scene worked without any additional information.

It would be like in American Beauty, if

[Show spoiler]Chris Cooper walked up behind Kevin Spacey before he shot him, and said "I am conflicted about my homosexuality!"

The viewer should be given enough credit to be able to gather what the characters motivation is without him screaming out the word "NOOOO!"

Look at how many times the camera shows Vader looking left to right, back and forth at The Emperor and Luke. It was already extremely obvious because of how it was shot. There really was no need to do that.

But obviously, horses for courses...

LoL. American Beauty and Star Wars is completely different to each other not just due to the narratives, the type of films are different (discounting genre). American Beauty was a film where one of elements to the film was that it promotes thought on the the ideas it presents. Star Wars on the other hand is a really good series that really was not meant to be a thinking mans sci-fi film. Most if not all that is in Star Wars is more or less quite literal. What you see is what you get. There's a big difference between a film that makes you think and a film that is meant to be enjoyed at pretty much face value.

The changes make sense in Star Wars. May not be what fans want but there's very little to support a argument of "Oh no! This takes away from the film!" It takes away from the film in the sense of it altering what people remembered of it, it however does not take away from the film as a film. Like the altered cantina scene with the newer musical number. People claim it to be terribly hoaky. Well, the original musical number in that scene was hoaky to begin with. Taking into account how the musical bit in Episode one is ridiculously hoaky, it only makes sense to update it in cantina scene to provide a better continuity throughout the series as a whole (it's like if for example, the music in Star Wars original trilogy was all jazz and then when the prequel trilogy came out, the music used was hip hop, doesn't make sense to keep the jazz anymore as that becomes odd and jarring in the context of the series as a whole).

Then again, Star Wars fans are Star Wars fans. They don't like having what they remembered changed, that's just facts. They don't see Star Wars as films, they see it as their Star Wars warts and all. Star Wars fans had always had this sense of entitlement as if they owned the thing and thus changes are only ok if they say it's ok. I stand by Lucas on this one, it's his movie, his baby, and judged as a film makers choices, his choices makes sense and I'm sure there's much more to come. It's like having a manuscript in an everlasting rough draft that gets changed and tweaked until the author dies. Ultimately, what Star Wars is today isn't definitive, the definitive rendition is going to be whatever the latest version is available prior to Lucas passing on.

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

+1

The first time I saw this movie I was literally 3 or 4 years old, and I have never been confused about what happened. It was such a dramatic victory for me as a child. YAY! Darth saves Luke! He is his Dad, he does still care about him!

Neither was I confused about Sebastian Shaw being the ghost, since we'd just seen his face mere moments before.

I think some people underestimate the audience, Lucas included.

Irvin Kershner having to fight to keep Han saying "I know" instead of "I love you" is indicative of this.

Valid points.... but Riddle me this Batman!

How did you know Vader got back to his Star Destroyer without actually hearing him politely request his Star Destroyer prepare for his arrival and see him board and disembark his shuttle? I am glad this has been cleared up as I had NO CLUE what Vader's intentions were when he said "Bring my Shuttle!"

Further, how did we know Audrey 2 was truly from outer space without seeing his great grand daddy in return of the jedi? Without Lucas to explain that to me, I would have thought Audrey 2 was just a venus flytrap with bad dispoisition and a Health Ledger Jokerish need to lie (while singing) about his point of origin.

Without Greedo shooting first, would you have known who trained ANY of the OT stormtroopers? I, for one, thank George 'The Creator' Lucas for clearing this whole matter up.

[greg_achen]

Originally Posted by dookiex

Actually, it's not a pointless change. With the added bit, we are now completely clear about what Vader thought about the whole thing when Luke is about to get killed by the Emperor. Without the dialogue, it was somewhat vague (which of course, people learned to love and applaud as being more subtle, it's not really more subtle folks, it's just vague, how are we the audience supposed to know what kind of emotions Vader is showing at that point? From his processed breathing? Immovable mask expressions? Hand gestures? Mime his state of mind?). I think this is one of those nagging issues that Lucas probably found after the film released and had always wanted to go back and tweak. Well, here finally got to tweak it, just a few decades later is all.

I've never known anyone stupid enough to not know what was going through Vader's mind in that scene. I've been watching these movies since I was a little kid and while some parts of Star Wars might have been confusing as a youngster, this wasn't even on my radar as being one of them.

[Stinky-Dinkins]

Originally Posted by dookiex

Think about it, those who claim that the original cut was better because it was more subtle with it, what was subtle about it exactly? That we're staring at plastic with no way of knowing if Vader was non-chalant or if he really did care about Luke as a father would seeing his son getting fried?

Yahahahahahaha, seriously?

Before Lucas put in the absurd NOOOOO! I totally thought Vader was completely nonchalant about the whole thing, thank God he fixed it. I always thought he was like looking at his watch off-camera and thinking about going out to grab a cup of coffee and a bagel after the Emperor was done zapping Luke, maybe even planning to catch a movie later. Even after he picked the Emperor up and threw him into an enormous space well, killing him, I could never tell if he was nonchalant about the whole thing either.

Anyone who thinks that scene was "vague" and the Nooooooooo! was necessary so the viewer could tell whether Vader was genuinely agonized or just "nonchalant" about the whole thing must be high. Sometimes, less is more.

I think, for the next release, Lucas should go back and add in a GRRRRRRRR! every time Vader force chokes someone. When I watch it as it is I have a hard time telling if Vader is angry and annoyed when he does it or if he's happy and aroused.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by LetoAtreides82

That's while he's still in his physical body. There are some who believe that ghosts choose a form that best represents them, which would explain him choosing his younger self.

Mehhhhhh... I mean we could both sit here and come up with justifications for it, but that's what retcon is. The fact remains that if he truly wanted Anakin to be represented as a young man, he could have easily cast a younger actor for the ghost sequence.

David Prowse was the body, Sebastian Shaw was the face, James Earl Jones was the voice, why not cast yet another guy for this particular element?

I think Lucas just wanted a touchstone for the new trilogy and didn't think too hard on the specifics of it.

Really, the retcon justifications for this change bother me more than the change itself... it's another one of those groaners I would stop complaining about if they would only take "Jedi Rocks" and burn it in a pit of fiery hell somewhere.

[dookiex]

Originally Posted by greg_achen

I've never known anyone stupid enough to not know what was going through Vader's mind in that scene. I've been watching these movies since I was a little kid and while some parts of Star Wars might have been confusing as a youngster, this wasn't even on my radar as being one of them.

Hey, kid and jest all you want. The man made the edit and this is his movie. His views on what his movie should be is the only opinion that counts. He obviously thought the same thing (or something similar) to what I felt. Proof is right there in the movie.

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by greg_achen

I've never known anyone stupid enough to not know what was going through Vader's mind in that scene.

So, what you are saying is: you have not met George Lucas.

Did I get that right?

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by dookiex

Hey, kid and jest all you want. The man made the edit and this is his movie. His views on what his movie should be is the only opinion that counts. He obviously thought the same thing (or something similar) to what I felt. Proof is right there in the movie.

Ah, the go-to arguement for people who otherwise has none... "Lucas is the one who decided this, therefore it must be right!"

Of course you could be (and probably are) completely wrong about the reasoning behind why he made the change. It probably has nothing to do with the scene being confusing at all (because as others have stated, it is extremely obvious), but rather to "mirror" the end of ROTS in which Vader yells "Nooooo" (similar to the mirroring of other events like in Epsiodes 2 and 4, where Anakin and Luke respectively get their hands cut off).

So, no, he didn't "obviously" think the same thing.

[dookiex]

Originally Posted by Jay444

So, what you are saying is: you have not met George Lucas.

Did I get that right?

That is certainly what has been implied. Like I said, Star Wars belongs to Lucas, what he says and thinks of it is the only opinion that really counts. Sorry fans, just because you are all so fanatical about it, doesn't mean that Star Wars belongs to you

[HandyDandy]

So i see now the tide of discussion has turned back to analyzing why people said this and why certain locations where chosen over others...

What we need now is A new thread a better thread one that will focus on the impending return of Star Wars in theaters....

But anyways what about the end of ROTJ what would it have been like if Luke had given in and killed Vader???

Would The Emperor have had time to get off of the Death Star before it exploded???

Would Luke have tried to then turn Leia to the darkside and kill Han,Chewie,3po,R2..????

The possibilities are endless just as that Galaxy far, far, away is there are so many choices that Lucas has to make another trilogy so many places and faces that we have yet to see....

[Stinky-Dinkins]

I personally think subtitles should be added to almost every Vader scene to let the viewer know exactly what Vader is feeling, even when it should be obvious even to the dumbest of idiots given what's happening on screen.

Something like "Reminder: Vader is currently upset."

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

But the way I see it, once something like this is released to the public, in some manner (whether it be big or small) it becomes part of the culture. It becomes a part of many people's lives who experience it.

I am most grateful that you're dead wrong on a legal grounds and disagree with you on moral grounds, as well.

Would it be nice to those fans if he did? Sure. Is he obligated to please those who deride and libel him when he doesn't? Hell no. He doesn't owe them anything more than he's already given.

And they want to be able to get it on Blu-Ray and have the closest possible thing to the theatrical presentation that they saw back at that time. Don't you feel that it's a bit selfish on the part of the artist to deny them that?

It's selfish for people to think that someone they've never met owes them because of the emotional investment they put in.

Now, this is not just limited to the UOT. While I actually like the change to digitial Yoda in Episode 1, I do think that anyone disapointed by it because they have fond memories of the puppet version from that film has the right to speak up, and that version should also be available as an option.

Noone has said they don't have a right to speak up. Others have the right to call them out as the petulant and selfish, as well.

Can you imagine the backlash that would happen if Ringo Star and Paul McCartney (the 2 surviving original group members) got together now and decided to remix each and every Beatles song, adding in things here and there like additional instruments not used in the original recordings (in some cases instruments that didn't exist back in the 60s), or adding additional lyrics to the songs, in some cases using modern artists for them, and then ONLY releasing them that way going forward, not allowing the original versions ever to be released again?

It would also be right for other fans to tell them to go back to their mp3 and CD's and STFU and that Paul and Ringo don't OWE them the cut they don't like on SACD or Blu-ray Audio or SuperDuperLosslessHoloCrystalDisc™. That's what we're talking about. It would be absurdly easy to find a CD/LP/tape of the original release. Do their fans feel obligated to rebuy on 8-track, tape, CD, mp3, and whatever the lossless format of the moment is?

So, I do feel that once something is released, there is a certain obligation for future accessability of that content.

We'll just go ahead and agree to disagree, then.

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

I find the idea of film preservation without easy public access to be absurd.

It's in the library of congress. there are millions of copies on DVD, laserdisc, and VHS available for anyone to get them. I was able to find them in 10 seconds on a quick ebay search. I'm willing to bet your life that I could find one in your local town that you could pick up within the hour, as well.

And frankly if this sort of thing happened more often with many, many more movies (newer versions with updates, new special effects, etc, with no further releases of the original versions coming out), sooner or later many of those defending Lucas would start crying foul, and would quickly drop this stupid, "They don't owe you additional releases" arguement.

Nah, I would go back to the cut I like on blu-ray or DVD and simply not buy the new 20TB HoloCrysalDisc 2160p version. I wouldn't whine about it, nor would I arrogantly expect that any filmmaker should cater to me.

[greg_achen]

Originally Posted by dookiex

Hey, kid and jest all you want. The man made the edit and this is his movie. His views on what his movie should be is the only opinion that counts. He obviously thought the same thing (or something similar) to what I felt. Proof is right there in the movie.

I have 28 years of proof as seen in 1983 and the 1997 and 2004 editions. George Lucas once thought the audience was stupid enough to not understand Luke's emotions when he chose to fall rather than join Vader in TESB. Luckily he eventually realized how ridiculous it was to have Luke scream in that moment and I can only hope he will realize Vader's melodramatic reaction in RotJ is on that same level of stupidity.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by Jay444

Valid points.... but Riddle me this Batman!

How did you know Vader got back to his Star Destroyer without actually hearing him politely request his Star Destroyer prepare for his arrival and see him board and disembark his shuttle? I am glad this has been cleared up as I had NO CLUE what Vader's intentions were when he said "Bring my Shuttle!"

Further, how did we know Audrey 2 was truly from outer space without seeing his great grand daddy in return of the jedi? Without Lucas to explain that to me, I would have thought Audrey 2 was just a venus flytrap with bad dispoisition and a Health Ledger Jokerish need to lie (while singing) about his point of origin.

Without Greedo shooting first, would you have known who trained ANY of the OT stormtroopers? I, for one, thank George 'The Creator' Lucas for clearing this whole matter up.

Thanks for brightening the mood.

[dookiex]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Ah, the go-to arguement for people who otherwise has none... "Lucas is the one who decided this, therefore it must be right!"

Of course you could be (and probably are) completely wrong about the reasoning behind why he made the change. It probably has nothing to do with the scene being confusing at all (because as others have stated, it is extremely obvious), but rather to "mirror" the end of ROTS in which Vader yells "Nooooo" (similar to the mirroring of other events like in Epsiodes 2 and 4, where Anakin and Luke respectively get their hands cut off).

So, no, he didn't "obviously" think the same thing.

If you watch that scene, without the "noooo," Vader could have been thinking a gajillion different things. Maybe he wants to kill Luke himself. Maybe he wants Luke to be his right hand man and take over the Empire. Maybe a lot of things, that scene was actually pretty vague. It's only in the context of what comes after that we realize what his intent really was. Adding the "noooo" takes the vagueness out of it. It's bizarre how people are oblivious to the fact that the scene is obvious now because they know how the whole thing plays out thus they remember it within the proper context. They don't comprehend that it's adding a bit of emotion. I sure as heck didn't need the "nooo" there for my own benefit for clarity, but in terms of why he chose to put it in, I can understand and agree with his decision. Simple as that.

Originally Posted by greg_achen

I have 28 years of proof as seen in 1983 and the 1997 and 2004 editions. George Lucas once thought the audience was stupid enough to not understand Luke's emotions when he chose to fall rather than join Vader in TESB. Luckily he eventually realized how ridiculous it was to have Luke scream in that moment and I can only hope he will realize Vader's melodramatic reaction in RotJ is on that same level of stupidity.

We shall see what it all ends up being with whatever the final version he puts out is before he dies

[Stinky-Dinkins]

Originally Posted by Uxi

I am most grateful that you're dead wrong on a legal grounds and disagree with you on moral grounds, as well.

Would it be nice to those fans if he did? Sure. Is he obligated to please those who deride and libel him when he doesn't? Hell no. He doesn't owe them anything more than he's already given.




It's selfish for people to think that someone they've never met owes them because of the emotional investment they put in.



Noone has said they don't have a right to speak up. Others have the right to call them out as the petulant and selfish, as well.



It would also be right for other fans to tell them to go back to their mp3 and CD's and STFU and that Paul and Ringo don't OWE them the cut they don't like on SACD or Blu-ray Audio or SuperDuperLosslessHoloCrystalDisc™. That's what we're talking about. It would be absurdly easy to find a CD/LP/tape of the original release. Do their fans feel obligated to rebuy on 8-track, tape, CD, mp3, and whatever the lossless format of the moment is?




We'll just go ahead and agree to disagree, then.




It's in the library of congress. there are millions of copies on DVD, laserdisc, and VHS available for anyone to get them. I was able to find them in 10 seconds on a quick ebay search. I'm willing to bet your life that I could find one in your local town that you could pick up within the hour, as well.






Nah, I would go back to the cut I like on blu-ray or DVD and simply not buy the new 20TB HoloCrysalDisc 2160p version. I wouldn't whine about it, nor would I arrogantly expect that any filmmaker should cater to me.

http://www.geeksofdoom.com/2011/09/1...k-for-blu-ray/

Originally Posted by dookiex

If you watch that scene, without the "noooo," Vader could have been thinking a gajillion different things. Maybe he wants to kill Luke himself. Maybe he wants Luke to be his right hand man and take over the Empire. Maybe a lot of things, that scene was actually pretty vague. It's only in the context of what comes after that we realize what his intent really was. Adding the "noooo" takes the vagueness out of it. It's bizarre how people are oblivious to the fact that the scene is obvious now because they know how the whole thing plays out thus they remember it within the proper context. They don't comprehend that it's adding a bit of emotion.



We shall see what it all ends up being with whatever the final version he puts out is before he dies

lol

[chip75]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

David Prowse was the body, Sebastian Shaw was the face, James Earl Jones was the voice, why not cast yet another guy for this particular element?

Don't forget Bob Anderson.

!B9+HquwEWk~$(KGrHqJ,!iIEzNIFsk(PBM7WlkhEz!~~_3.jpg

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by Grand Bob

Agree with that. I never had a problem with that change for the same reasoning.

Originally Posted by Beast

Ditto. It fits the mythology of the movies far better than Sebastian Shaw's Ghost did.

For me, it's just like replacing the OLME Emperor from ESB with the "Real" Emperor.

A necessary change that fit the story of the films better than the version that was originally there.

Originally Posted by sopes

just a minor thing, but at least Luke had seen his father as the old Anakin and was looked upon "by his own eyes". that was the only face of his father that he knew.

with the young Anakin, Luke could have been thinking "who the f*ck is this guy?"

Originally Posted by Beast

Do you honestly think that Luke is that stupid? I know he's a dumb blonde from the ass end of space. But he's not an idiot.

That's not the point. How does Luke know who the young Anakin is? He could be anybody - he could be some other Jedi who died and was a friend of Yoda and Obi-Wan. It's not like Luke grew up with photographs of his father as a young man.

I didn't mind this change until I realized that there was no reason for Luke to know who this guy is. For me, that makes it completely illogical. It would only have made sense if Sebastian Shaw was replaced by an "aged' Christensen in the unmasking scenes.