Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[nathan_393]

Originally Posted by Zuiun

The philosophy itself wasn't the problem. Had the Vader/Anakin thing been planned from the beginning, Kenobi could still have given the "Vader killed your father" speech in ANH, but written better. Guinness was a skilled enough actor to pull off the ambiguity necessary to make that come off as not the complete truth.

The reason it's so clumsy, though, is because it clearly was an attempt to completely rewrite the story from ANH.

I agree with your assessment of ANH and the fact that it was an attempt to change it. The twist comes completely out of nowhere considering ANH - it's not perfect storytelling. I just think the problem may be with Lucas' lack of vision and not ROTJ itself.

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by nathan_393

I must be the only person alive who likes the "from a certain point of view" speech. I just like the philosophy behind it and wish it had more of a role in ROTS and AOTC. Frankly, Anankin should have fallen because of a growing distrust of the Jedi - his POV should have more obviously been that they were evil. That kind of ambiguity really could have strengthened the films for me.

Lucas should have made more a big deal about WHY the Separatists were leaving the Republic (high taxes on trade and corruption in the Senate). Hell, as it stands we hardly get that explanation. Would have created MUCH more moral ambiguity and would have also made the audience question if the Jedi were actually on the wrong side thus buying much more into Anakin's questioning of the judgment of the Jedi Console. Instead, all I thought was: "God, this kid whines a lot about nothing."

[Colonel Kurtz]

Originally Posted by kurtlingle

It's just a movie

The argument to end all arguments, is it? Hey, why not have The Terminator sprout wings and attack John Connor from the air. Or how about having Indy fire lasers from his eyes. It's just a movie, right?

Trust me, I give movies plenty of leeway as far as realism is concerned, even more so when it's fantasy/science-fiction, but that doesn't mean that I have to accept totally idiotic scenes, just because it's "just a movie". It's called "having standards".

In this case it's not even so much about the realism (or lack thereof) but about how sloppy this scene was made from a technical standpoint. It looks like they didn't even give a damn.

[dookiex]

Originally Posted by Colonel Kurtz

The argument to end all arguments, is it? Hey, why not have The Terminator sprout wings and attack John Connor from the air. Or how about having Indy fire lasers from his eyes. It's just a movie, right?

HEY, they actually practically did that in Terminator 4. Indy isn't that far behind after the ridiculous Crystal Skull film.

[Weirded Wonder]

I think the greatest problem with the PT is Lucas inability to be consistent with the creation of our suspension of disbelief.

In ESB Luke is attacked by the Wampa, left out in the elements, and is injured enough that he needs the Bacta Tank to aid in his recovery. Later, Luke is beaten badly by Vader, falls from a great height and lands on the weather vane. Luke is then escorted into the Falcon and is again given medical attention, this continues in the end with his aid in the medical frigate.

AOTC, Anakin jumps from the speeder during the chase with Zam Wessel and plummets an amazing distance to simply grab onto a speeder traveling at an incredible speed and suffers no damage.

AOTC, during the final battle on Genosha, Mace Windu jumps down into the arena after Jango attempts to set him on fire. Mace is unharmed.

ROTS, Obi-Wan is pinned to the ground after Dooku moves the gantry over top of him. Obi-Wan is out for a little bit, only to recover moments later in the elevator shaft.

ROTS, Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Palpatine descend the elevator shaft and somehow swing out the opening.

ROTS, Mace Windu attempts to arrest Palpatine, Anakin interferes and Palpatine shoots Mace Windu out the window. Apparently Mace dies.

ROTJ, Vader tosses Palpatine down the reactor shaft. If the fall didn't kill him, the exploding Death Star sure did.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

I hear that a lot! But can someone give me a brief synopsis of the story and the main characters development that would be an improvement over the three episodes we got... Many people claim f.e. that it would have been a better move to start Episode I with a grown up Anakin instead of a child. I wonder how this could have worked because we wouldn't see his attachement to his mother, we wouldn't have characters like Qui-Gon or the Pod-Race or fairy tale characters like JarJar, Sebulba, Watto or the young Queen we wouldn't get such a gentle introduction to the Star Wars-universe. I often get the feeling that people would have liked a hybrid of "Aliens" and "Braveheart" with lightsabers...

He doesn't need any "attachment to his mother" to have a convincing journey to the dark side. Like, not at all.

We also don't need the pod race to establish Anakin (if ever there was a scene meant solely to inspire a video game, this is it), nor do we need Qui-Gon (even though I do like the character), we certainly, certainly don't need Sebulba, Jar Jar or Watto. I don't even know how this is a question.

And yes, a hybrid of Alien and Braveheart with lightsabres would be awesome.

A better way for the PT to go, would have been to establish Anakin as an extremely powerful, charismatic, likable hero figure, but make him a little bit roguish with an achilles heel like pride, ego, jealousy... they could still use the threat of losing his love as the catalyst for his turn. If he was an extremely likable character his turn to the dark side would be that much more powerful. Since he went from whiny boy to whiny teen to emo twenty-something, I never gave a rats ass about his turn.

[dookiex]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

He doesn't need any "attachment to his mother" to have a convincing journey to the dark side. Like, not at all.

We also don't need the pod race to establish Anakin (if ever there was a scene meant solely to inspire a video game, this is it), nor do we need Qui-Gon (even though I do like the character), we certainly, certainly don't need Sebulba, Jar Jar or Watto. I don't even know how this is a question.

And yes, a hybrid of Alien and Braveheart with lightsabres would be awesome.

A better way for the PT to go, would have been to establish Anakin as an extremely powerful, charismatic, likable hero figure, but make him a little bit roguish with an achilles heel like pride, ego, jealousy... they could still use the threat of losing his love as the catalyst for his turn. If he was an extremely likable character his turn to the dark side would be that much more powerful. Since he went from whiny boy to whiny teen to emo twenty-something, I never gave a rats ass about his turn.

That's the beauty of sci-fi now isn't it? A lot of "what ifs" rather than loving what is there. That's how we end up with fan fiction and comic book interpretations. To fill in the "faults" that fans find in what is actually there. If Anakin didn't need the first movie to explain his transition to the dark side, it would be a very different alternate version of the story. At the end of the day, this is a world and a story that came out of Lucas' mind. Regardless of liking his version of it or not, his version is at the end of the day the only "true" version of the story.

[The Doof]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

Because to me there are no more inconsistencies in the OT as in the PT or in other movies. I'm not watching movies with anger and am looking for mistakes and plotholes. By the way: If the explanation for TESB holds up (they were sending out probe droids through THE WHOLE GALAXY) then you'd also have to except the SAME explanation in TPM: Darth Maul searched inhabited planets in the vicinity of Naboo and found them on Tatooine with the help of his search-droids. What's the big deal!

The big deal is that some kind of trace was mentioned, after we are told that the Jedi can't be found if they don't send any messages. And they do not send any messages.

"Not for the Sith" is all well and good, but it's just irritating that these things get glossed over by lazy writing.

In Empire, Darth Vader can't just find whoever he wants to within a whole galaxy. But the force gives him intuition, so that when he hears the right thing, he just knows it is right. This is shown to us. This helps our understanding of the Force. They don't just show up on Hoth.

This isn't watching films with "anger" - this is being angered that a silly movie makes no sense. Even simple space adventures have to have an internal logic. Even fairy tales make sense.

[The Doof]

Originally Posted by Valaquen

Darth Maul finds them within days. The Empire have been chasing the rebels for, perhaps, months-years, and only find them due to an itchy blaster finger. I don't think anybody went into the PT looking for holes; they simply fell through 'em.

Hearsa hearsa! Yousa make-a muoy muoy sense!

[mtrouth]

I noticed some slight static/distortion during the Death Star explosion in Return of the Jedi as the sound moves int the rear speakers. It is a slight static that is present in both the right and left rear channels. I think it is supposed to be there, but I'm not sure. Anyone else experience this on their system?

[The Doof]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

But you never said: "Damn, Luke falling down this abyss in Bespin - no way he could have survived this! This movie sucks." All I'm saying is, if you are this thorough and dissect a fairy tale in such a unforgiving manner than you have to put down your rose-tinted glasses and do it for all 6 of them.

It's simply because you liked TESB from the get go that you don't mind these things. After all they are not important to the believability of sci-fi-fantasy-fairy tale with a poetic and symbolic way of telling its story over 6 episodes.

Who is the one wearing rose-tinted glasses? Luke's fall MAKES sense. He doesn't smack into the ground like wet cement. He is sucked into a sucky hole before any kind of impact. This works because a WRITER used logic. How can someone survive a fall like this? I will write a way that makes sense and it will be shown on the screen. I've been wracking my brain for examples of poor logic and lazy writing in the OT and I can't think of anything. Elements of fantasy notwithstanding, EVERYTHING MAKES SENSE.

[The Doof]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

I hear that a lot! But can someone give me a brief synopsis of the story and the main characters development that would be an improvement over the three episodes we got... Many people claim f.e. that it would have been a better move to start Episode I with a grown up Anakin instead of a child. I wonder how this could have worked because we wouldn't see his attachement to his mother, we wouldn't have characters like Qui-Gon or the Pod-Race or fairy tale characters like JarJar, Sebulba, Watto or the young Queen we wouldn't get such a gentle introduction to the Star Wars-universe. I often get the feeling that people would have liked a hybrid of "Aliens" and "Braveheart" with lightsabers...

You just answered your own question.

[Weirded Wonder]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

He doesn't need any "attachment to his mother" to have a convincing journey to the dark side. Like, not at all.

We also don't need the pod race to establish Anakin (if ever there was a scene meant solely to inspire a video game, this is it), nor do we need Qui-Gon (even though I do like the character), we certainly, certainly don't need Sebulba, Jar Jar or Watto. I don't even know how this is a question.

And yes, a hybrid of Alien and Braveheart with lightsabres would be awesome.

A better way for the PT to go, would have been to establish Anakin as an extremely powerful, charismatic, likable hero figure, but make him a little bit roguish with an achilles heel like pride, ego, jealousy... they could still use the threat of losing his love as the catalyst for his turn. If he was an extremely likable character his turn to the dark side would be that much more powerful. Since he went from whiny boy to whiny teen to emo twenty-something, I never gave a rats ass about his turn.

I try not to think about the PT when I'm watching the OT. It disturbs me greatly to think about the PT when I see Darth Vader and go, 'that's the reason he became Darth Vader? Oh brother'

I think it would have worked better if Padme would have rejected Anakin in Episode II after falling in love. Then Anakin could have tried to get her back no matter the cost. He eventually finds her and takes her without her consent, there conceiving the children. Obi-Wan now is ordered to protect her. Perhaps the children are born at the start of Episode III and Anakin's quest is to now take his children. Anakin with the aid of Boba Fett (in this timeline there is no Jango Fett) hunt down and destroy the Jedi in hopes of bringing Obi-Wan out with the children. I think you can fill in the rest.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by dookiex

That's the beauty of sci-fi now isn't it? A lot of "what ifs" rather than loving what is there. That's how we end up with fan fiction and comic book interpretations. To fill in the "faults" that fans find in what is actually there. If Anakin didn't need the first movie to explain his transition to the dark side, it would be a very different alternate version of the story. At the end of the day, this is a world and a story that came out of Lucas' mind. Regardless of liking his version of it or not, his version is at the end of the day the only "true" version of the story.

Uh huh.

Anyway, he asked, I answered. It's not like I'm complaining that it wasn't done that way, just rising to the challenge of "do a better job, then".

A better job would be an Anakin we actually like and care about. Imagine the impact of like, Aragorn becoming evil in Return of the King after his conduct in the first two movies/books. That kind of a turn would be very powerful because it's such a stretch. Anakin in the prequels was already a spaz, his "turn" to the dark side doesn't seem interesting at all.

[Weirded Wonder]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

Uh huh.

Anyway, he asked, I answered. It's not like I'm complaining that it wasn't done that way, just rising to the challenge of "do a better job, then".

A better job would be an Anakin we actually like and care about. Imagine the impact of like, Aragorn becoming evil in Return of the King after his conduct in the first two movies/books. That kind of a turn would be very powerful because it's such a stretch. Anakin in the prequels was already a spaz, his "turn" to the dark side doesn't seem interesting at all.

The PT make Anakin out to be a powerful idiot.

[Zuiun]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

A better way for the PT to go, would have been to establish Anakin as an extremely powerful, charismatic, likable hero figure, but make him a little bit roguish with an achilles heel like pride, ego, jealousy... they could still use the threat of losing his love as the catalyst for his turn. If he was an extremely likable character his turn to the dark side would be that much more powerful. Since he went from whiny boy to whiny teen to emo twenty-something, I never gave a rats ass about his turn.

For me, this is the biggest thing. Anakin was just never that likable.

Ok, sure, as a little boy he sort of gets a free pass. Other than Jake Lloyd's terrible acting, there isn't much really "unlikable" about the kid. But he isn't much of a character, either. He's more a plot device.

However, from AOTC on, Anakin is a completely unsympathetic character. He acts spoiled and entitled and therefore even without the foreknowledge of the OT, his turn to the dark side isn't really a shock. For supposedly being one of the greatest Jedi, he's pretty much the antithesis of what a Jedi is. Of course he is the method of their downfall because he was never really one of them to begin with.

I don't think we needed to see Anakin as a little boy. Instead, write the first film exactly as you suggest. Anakin is charismatic, not a full Jedi yet, but not a little boy. Well on his way to becoming one of the greatest heroes in Jedi history. He should be like the Don Draper of the Jedi. Someone everyone flocks to despite his flaws. Make him a character so thoroughly likable and good that the events of RotS become the Greek Tragedy level event that Lucas wanted it to be.

But above all, rewrite him to not be such a spoiled, whiny brat.

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

I hear that a lot! But can someone give me a brief synopsis of the story and the main characters development that would be an improvement over the three episodes we got... Many people claim f.e. that it would have been a better move to start Episode I with a grown up Anakin instead of a child. I wonder how this could have worked because we wouldn't see his attachement to his mother, we wouldn't have characters like Qui-Gon or the Pod-Race or fairy tale characters like JarJar, Sebulba, Watto or the young Queen we wouldn't get such a gentle introduction to the Star Wars-universe. I often get the feeling that people would have liked a hybrid of "Aliens" and "Braveheart" with lightsabers...

Luke is introduced as a 19/20 year old and no one seems to have any issue at all with his character development. Most 'Prince' characters in fairy tales are introduced as young men, not young boys. Children, seldom ever make convincing protaganists or are seen as 'deep' characters. Unless your idea of a deep character is the kid in Home Alone....

TPM (enjoyable as it is) doesn't accomplish a whole heck of a lot. Qui-Gon existes to die (just like Darth Maul) and had zero impact on the rest of the series. Exactly what purpose did he serve that a simple re-write to make Obi Wan's character more robust couldn't have solved? It should have started with Anakin being in the role of padawan which would have strengthened the two character's father/son bond and made Obi Wan's ultimate failure more impactful. It is a film series about the father/son bond, why wait to the second chapter to start that? Hell, Obi Wan hardly acknowledges Anakin's existance in the film until the last five minutes!

Throw in an older Padme and start the romance in film one, instead of forcing it into film two and you have probably what amounts to a better PT. Oh, and start Palpatine off as Supreme Chancellor and give the Trade Federation a reason to invade his home planet other than "It is a convient out of the way system..." This makes Federation lashing out at/blaming the Naboo for high trade costs and corruption in the Senate (they don't know Sideous is Palpatine anyway) because the Chancellor is one of their citizens.

But anyway, there are millions of ways the PT could have been better served starting later in Anakin's life. But it is what it is.

[Weirded Wonder]

Originally Posted by Zuiun

For me, this is the biggest thing. Anakin was just never that likable.

Ok, sure, as a little boy he sort of gets a free pass. Other than Jake Lloyd's terrible acting, there isn't much really "unlikable" about the kid. But he isn't much of a character, either. He's more a plot device.

However, from AOTC on, Anakin is a completely unsympathetic character. He acts spoiled and entitled and therefore even without the foreknowledge of the OT, his turn to the dark side isn't really a shock. For supposedly being one of the greatest Jedi, he's pretty much the antithesis of what a Jedi is. Of course he is the method of their downfall because he was never really one of them to begin with.

I don't think we needed to see Anakin as a little boy. Instead, write the first film exactly as you suggest. Anakin is charismatic, not a full Jedi yet, but not a little boy. Well on his way to becoming one of the greatest heroes in Jedi history. He should be like the Don Draper of the Jedi. Someone everyone flocks to despite his flaws. Make him a character so thoroughly likable and good that the events of RotS become the Greek Tragedy level event that Lucas wanted it to be.

But above all, rewrite him to not be such a spoiled, whiny brat.

I like that. I think the problem with Lucas waiting so long in between sagas is that he was aware of a lot of what was being written by fans and knew that he couldn't write Star Wars as they saw it. He had to make it his own, no matter how bad it was and throw a label on it that says, 'that was the way I always saw it from the beginning'.

[Kizzo]

Originally Posted by sevb36

On another note, no one has brought up the fact that at least 85 percent of the dialogue is dubbed in later. (I read this a few places) Does this effect the acting? Or is this normal with most films? People complain about bluescreens hurting the acting, but if someone is in a sound booth, they are also speaking to pretty much nothing.

Hmmmm.. interesting. I didn't know that.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by Kizzo

Hmmmm.. interesting. I didn't know that.

Neither did I.

To the best of my knowledge, dialogue has been recorded on-set with boom mics and LAVs since the late 60's. Sure people do ADR later if lines are recorded badly or have noise etc., but it would be very surprising to me if the PT had "85% of the dialogue" recorded in post.

In fact I'd be shocked.