Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[dookiex]

Originally Posted by popeflick

Where is a list of these losses?

The simple fact is this: there are great releases of their films in HD. Bottom line. An enormous amount made since the 60's is fine and most made by the studios is included in that. Once you begin pushing deeper than that you get into the realm of PD films, films made by bankrupt production or distribution companies, obscure stuff with small releases, like Fear and Desire by Kubrick - preserved with the help of Scorcese, but that film is 55 years old.

You have overestimated the popularity of most films. The films that have excellent original prints are ones that were never blockbusters to the extent of The Godfather and Star Wars. If a film is a runaway success, it is a given that the original print is going to be manhandled. The abuse that comes with handling the prints along with the fact that it hasn't been until relatively recently where studios began to go "hey, I think it's a good idea to store these properly" AND on top of that, by the time studios realized that they should archive these things, digital scanning of the original prints is now more or less a standard practice. Especially bad storage of original prints are also very evident with the films that came out in the 70's because in the early 70's, studios actually wanted to close down. They thought that the film industry was going to become extinct. The last thing they thought about was archiving films. Period.

[Monkey_Boy]

Originally Posted by BouCoupDinkyDau

For me, Menace was watched in complete silence, but everyone let out a really surprised "Whoa!" when Maul broke apart into two pieces.

On Clones, people shifted around in their seats, whispered, giggled, and let out uncomfortable sighs during all of the romance scenes. The rest of the viewing was in silence as well.

On Sith (also watched with seeming emotional detachment by the audience), people were rolling when Vader cries out "NOOOOOOO!" It was embarrassing really, because it was the kind of laughter that was not about humor, but about release. It was as though we were finally glad the whole thing was over with. Please just let the credits roll and we can all pretend none of this ever happened.

Interesting. You were in a theater where EVERYBODY thought the same as you?! Wow. Just wow. My experience was quite different with cheers for the action and laughter at Jar Jar's antics. Maybe you just heard what you wanted to hear, I dunno. I can't get over the fact that folks keep saying how "everybody in the theater hated it" and then it still went on to make a profit.

Having been one who has experienced racism first hand, I can honestly say that I took zero offense at Jar Jar. I truly believe people are projecting their own thoughts and feelings into the character so that they have a more reasoned argument for hating him. As for Anakin and Padme's relationship, I think it was supposed to be a flip side of Han and Leia's. Han's relationship with Leia made sense in how it evolved. Han wasn't a virgin when he met Leia. He had grown up around women. Anakin hadn't. He was a confused kid with issues of co-dependency. Padme was exactly the same. They both took responsibility for each other. Anakin focused on the fact that he couldn't save his mother and took it upon himself that he would stop this from happening to him again. Padme saw Anakin as "that little boy from Tattooine." She felt responsible for him slaughtering the Sand People, which is why she comforted him. At the very end of ROTS she's still taking responsibility by telling Obi-Wan that there was still good in him, but she couldn't live with herself because of what he had done. CLASSIC CO-DEPENDECY ISSUES! Their love didn't evolve the way Han & leia's did because it was built on a foundation of co-dependency, so it was destined to fail. I think alotta people's problem is that they thought they were gonna witness an amazing love story, but it wouldn't and couldn't have gone that way. Like I typed before, Anakin ain't gonna have no mack daddy skills without chicks to play off of!

[Weirded Wonder]

Originally Posted by dookiex

You are HILARIOUS. You're comparing NASA which have HISTORICALLY archived everything to the film industry which only cared about making theatrical prints then and there.

I misunderstood what you were getting at. You're talking about preservation, which is maintaining the print in an optimal usable state. Archiving is simply the cataloging and storage of the media. Sorry for the confusion on my part.

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by Monkey_Boy

Interesting. You were in a theater where EVERYBODY thought the same as you?! Wow. Just wow. My experience was quite different with cheers for the action and laughter at Jar Jar's antics. Maybe you just heard what you wanted to hear, I dunno. I can't get over the fact that folks keep saying how "everybody in the theater hated it" and then it still went on to make a profit.

Having been one who has experienced racism first hand, I can honestly say that I took zero offense at Jar Jar. I truly believe people are projecting their own thoughts and feelings into the character so that they have a more reasoned argument for hating him. As for Anakin and Padme's relationship, I think it was supposed to be a flip side of Han and Leia's. Han's relationship with Leia made sense in how it evolved.

That's a good observation. In Star Wars themes and characters are treated very much like music with the same tune played in different keys. Luke is a variation of Anakin and the more "modern" love-story of Han/Leia is the variation of the classic love-story of Anakin/Padme that preceeded it.

[al cos.]

Originally Posted by dookiex

You have overestimated the popularity of most films. The films that have excellent original prints are ones that were never blockbusters to the extent of The Godfather and Star Wars. If a film is a runaway success, it is a given that the original print is going to be manhandled. The abuse that comes with handling the prints along with the fact that it hasn't been until relatively recently where studios began to go "hey, I think it's a good idea to store these properly" AND on top of that, by the time studios realized that they should archive these things, digital scanning of the original prints is now more or less a standard practice. Especially bad storage of original prints are also very evident with the films that came out in the 70's because in the early 70's, studios actually wanted to close down. They thought that the film industry was going to become extinct. The last thing they thought about was archiving films. Period.

Star Wars was extremely (and extensively) well-archived.

[42041]

The original negative isn't in great shape but most of what you're seeing on these transfers is the original negative, except for some shots that are from black and white separations where the OCN was badly damaged. The Jabba scene in A New Hope is from an IP since the negative for that was gone. The only real question is whether they saved the parts that got replaced with digital effects in 1997.

[popeflick]

Originally Posted by dookiex

You have overestimated the popularity of most films. The films that have excellent original prints are ones that were never blockbusters to the extent of The Godfather and Star Wars. If a film is a runaway success, it is a given that the original print is going to be manhandled. The abuse that comes with handling the prints along with the fact that it hasn't been until relatively recently where studios began to go "hey, I think it's a good idea to store these properly" AND on top of that, by the time studios realized that they should archive these things, digital scanning of the original prints is now more or less a standard practice. Especially bad storage of original prints are also very evident with the films that came out in the 70's because in the early 70's, studios actually wanted to close down. They thought that the film industry was going to become extinct. The last thing they thought about was archiving films. Period.

Right. No list.

Bad copies of prints from the 70s have more to do with the emulsion used than any storage or lack of care in storage did. In fact, the movement for preservation started at Disney DURING the 70s, so you're kind of mixing and matching here and not making sense in some areas. You did flat out say a little earlier no one undertook preservation, and that's flat out wrong as well. Finally, if a studio wanted to go out of business... they would have gone out of business.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

You can whine all you want and demand anything you like! I just said I don't like it! You have to live with that - I think you can live without my approval!

Yes, I most certainly can. In fact, I prefer it that way!

[dookiex]

Originally Posted by popeflick

Right. No list.

Bad copies of prints from the 70s have more to do with the emulsion used than any storage or lack of care in storage did. In fact, the movement for preservation started at Disney DURING the 70s, so you're kind of mixing and matching here and not making sense in some areas. You did flat out say a little earlier no one undertook preservation, and that's flat out wrong as well. Finally, if a studio wanted to go out of business... they would have gone out of business.

Don't argue with me about this. Go argue with Coppola, Lucas, and Spielberg. Go watch the featurette from the Coppola Restoration Godfather set. Hell, it's available in two parts on YouTube. There's also another featurette from that set about how The Godfather was at risk of not being made. The Paramount exec in that featurette also explains the extent of the danger of the studios going out of business. You can also learn more of the subject by reading The Kid Stays in the Picture. Don't come on here claiming things which you clearly have no knowledge of because the resources for you to learn just how horrendously wrong you are is widely available and documented pretty thoroughly.

[BouCoupDinkyDau]

Originally Posted by Monkey_Boy

Interesting. You were in a theater where EVERYBODY thought the same as you?! Wow. Just wow.

Interesting. You read somewhere, ANYWHERE in my post that I was experiencing exactly the same thing as what I described everyone else to be exhibiting? Wow. Just wow.

God, I wish some people would take some reading classes. Comprehension is a very important part of the reading process.

Oh, and where the hell did you get that my post about the reaction of the theater had anything to do with racism? Maybe those "first hand experiences" you are getting are not racism, but people being annoyed with your charged attitude that has nothing to do with anything at hand.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Monkey_Boy

I think alotta people's problem is that they thought they were gonna witness an amazing love story, but it wouldn't and couldn't have gone that way.

We knew going in the love story wasn't going to end well but it most certainly could have - and should have - been amazing.

You can dress it up however you want but this supposed love story that started as a schoolboy crush, never really advanced from there and ended with Padme 'losing the will to live' was simply dreadful. It's difficult to think of a single note that rang true.

I didn't care in the slightest that their love was doomed from the start because I never believed any of it anyway.

Anakin could have been an heroic character and his fall could have mattered. They could have had a real romance and its end could have been genuinely tragic.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

[dookiex]

Originally Posted by popeflick

Right. No list.

Bad copies of prints from the 70s have more to do with the emulsion used than any storage or lack of care in storage did. In fact, the movement for preservation started at Disney DURING the 70s, so you're kind of mixing and matching here and not making sense in some areas. You did flat out say a little earlier no one undertook preservation, and that's flat out wrong as well. Finally, if a studio wanted to go out of business... they would have gone out of business.

Actually, Disney is probably the only studio that actually gave some thought to preservation. The major Hollywood studios did not, so, I'm actually not mixing and matching here. When talking about Hollywood studios, Disney really doesn't fall into that category. Disney has always operate in its own little world. The major Hollywood studios did indeed not have the notion at the time to preserve original prints. The emulsion was NOT the problem for deteriorating original prints, it was actually the handling of them (I've worked 5 years in photo development, so please, don't argue with me about how to preserve film). The emulsion and the stock itself, even at that time, would not have deteriorated so badly so quickly. It was the fact that if you take film stock, any film stock, run it through machines over and over and over as well as expose it to light (which is what you're doing when you are striking copies from the original), it deteriorates. That along with improper storage (have you been to any archival vaults? by and large, regardless of the size of the corporation, where they keep files for archival purposes are FAR from optimum climate for storage, this includes record warehouses where they are SUPPOSED to have climate controlled environments as that is what you are paying them for to store your records).

As for if the studios wanted to go out of business they would have, guess what? They actually did. The Godfather was kind of their last hoorah before selling the studios not as a studio but just the asset (mainly the real estate). You have realize that Paramount Pictures, by far the largest Hollywood studio if not THE Hollywood studio at the time was close to selling itself, the whole kit and kaboodle, for roughly $600,000. Robert Evans basically convinced Paramount to give making films one last go and he hit on a gold mine with The Godfather. Let's just say that The Godfather pretty much single handedly saved Hollywood. Go read The Kid Stays in the Picture, great book, it's all laid out in the open for you there in regards to the dire straits condition Hollywood was in for that period.

Ironically, this information really isn't hard to find. All you have to do is google it, read some books on cinema, go through some director interviews, etc. Also, most true film buffs and historians would be able to give you basically the same information. It's been a huge topic of discussion in regards to how film preservation should really be a big focus for the studios but the studios aren't doing their part to preserve these precious original prints. It's all out there in the open. George Lucas is in the same boat with Star Wars, fans for some reason are under the impression that Lucas was a fortune teller and knew the extent of the success of Star Wars and the advent of HD media formats and thus would have taken especially good care of the original prints. The truth is, they didn't and by the time they went back to the original prints, they were in pretty bad shape. So when Lucas says that it's going to be very costly to do a true restoration as the fans would like, it's quite and ordeal and at the end of the day, it's actually cheaper to do what he did with the Blu Ray set and what he's doing with the 3D updates. At this point Lucas is more of a businessman than a creative genius and he's going to do what makes more financial sense.

[svenge]

Originally Posted by dookiex

At this point Lucas is more of a businessman than a creative genius and he's going to do what makes more financial sense.

He's more marketing machine than man, twisted and evil.

[BouCoupDinkyDau]

Originally Posted by octagon

We knew going in the love story wasn't going to end well but it most certainly could have - and should have - been amazing.

You can dress it up however you want but this supposed love story that started as a schoolboy crush, never really advanced from there and ended with Padme 'losing the will to live' was simply dreadful. It's difficult to think of a single note that rang true.

I didn't care in the slightest that their love was doomed from the start because I never believed any of it anyway.

Anakin could have been an heroic character and his fall could have mattered. They could have had a real romance and its end could have been genuinely tragic.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

+1

Yes. Lucas so could have really pulled at our emotions and made it truly awesome. Had Anakin been as likable as Luke or Han, and the romance been truly heart aching (rather than a cliched nightmare) it would have been terrible-awesome to see Anakin fall. We would have fallen in love with SW all over again, and Vader would have had this sadness to him that would have been great. We could have watched IV-VI and felt sorry for him the whole time, thinking: It's okay, bro. I know you're not truly evil, just misguided. Luke will show you your true heart.

Instead, we got:

[Monkey_Boy]

Originally Posted by BouCoupDinkyDau

Interesting. You read somewhere, ANYWHERE in my post that I was experiencing exactly the same thing as what I described everyone else to be exhibiting? Wow. Just wow.

God, I wish some people would take some reading classes. Comprehension is a very important part of the reading process.

Oh, and where the hell did you get that my post about the reaction of the theater had anything to do with racism? Maybe those "first hand experiences" you are getting are not racism, but people being annoyed with your charged attitude that has nothing to do with anything at hand.

For me, Menace was watched in complete silence, but everyone let out a really surprised "Whoa!" when Maul broke apart into two pieces.

On Clones, people shifted around in their seats, whispered, giggled, and let out uncomfortable sighs during all of the romance scenes. The rest of the viewing was in silence as well.

On Sith (also watched with seeming emotional detachment by the audience), people were rolling when Vader cries out "NOOOOOOO!" It was embarrassing really, because it was the kind of laughter that was not about humor, but about release. It was as though we were finally glad the whole thing was over with. Please just let the credits roll and we can all pretend none of this ever happened.

Maybe you need writing lessons if that's not what you meant. The Jar Jar comment was aimed at other posters who were claiming racism and such. Different paragragh. Different topic. Thought it was easy enough to figure out. Oh, well.

[BouCoupDinkyDau]

Originally Posted by Monkey_Boy

Maybe you need writing lessons if that's not what you meant. The Jar Jar comment was aimed at other posters who were claiming racism and such. Different paragragh. Different topic. Thought it was easy enough to figure out. Oh, well.

You're mistaking a person who is reporting his observations with a person that is including himself in a group. The only thing in my post that says I was a part of the group was the laughing at Vader part, where I did indeed say "we," because I did laugh at it, and and can interpret the inflections in laughter just as almost anyone can, and the mood of the laughter was exactly the same thing I was feeling as well, which was: That was funny for all the wrong reasons. Thank god this is finally over.

So because I had one fifteen-second group experience out of seven hours of film, you somehow came to believe my post was indicating that I was in sync with the theater on each and every occasion? And you seem to think I have the reading problem?

The truth of the matter is the audiences I sat with through the prequels were indeed silent through all three films with the exceptions I mentioned. But when I went and saw Jedi in it's original run, you could not contain the audience for most of the film. People were cheering and laughing and at all the right moments for all the right reasons, and I saw Jedi seven times that summer! It was only after the third of fourth viewing that those audiences started so get silent, because by then we were all repeat viewers. And with THAT film, I was in sync with the audience the whole time.

Again, I just think you wanted to be offended, and to offend someone else in the process, and the racism part of your post didn't belong to a post your were addressing me in. So again, who has the problem, because I don't remember ever addressing you.

[MCT]

I remember the ROTS showing, when Palpatine killed Mace and made his pitch to Anakin, you could hear people giggling and sighing around the theater....it was supposed to be such a pivotal moment but Palpatine's makeup and voice were just terrible.

then when the "dark side spirit" or whatever took over his body and he says, "The FAAWWWWCE is strooong with YEWWWWW"....it turned into full blown laughter around the theater. All I could do was stare in disbelief at how badly Lucas botched one of the biggest moments in the entire Star Wars saga!

[BouCoupDinkyDau]

Originally Posted by MCT

I remember the ROTS showing, when Palpatine killed Mace and made his pitch to Anakin, you could hear people giggling and sighing around the theater....it was supposed to be such a pivotal moment but Palpatine's makeup and voice were just terrible.

then when the "dark side spirit" or whatever took over his body and he says, "The FAAWWWWCE is strooong with YEWWWWW"....it turned into full blown laughter around the theater. All I could do was stare in disbelief at how badly Lucas botched one of the biggest moments in the entire Star Wars saga!

I can't remember if anyone reacted to that in my theater or not. The silence in the room was thick. I do remember feeling let down (yet again) when I saw that, but by that time it was no longer heartbreak (that ended with Clones), but more Jesus, and this part sucks too kinda thoughts. Sith was the very lowest I have ever felt about a movie even though its the best of the three prequels. I have never before or since felt any kind of depression over a film. I usually just take them or leave them, but as Sith progressed, I felt as though I was watching the end of a beloved pet's life, and for two and a half hours I had to endure the final moments of its slow death that had begun in '99. I had in essence given up on the entire affair and just waited for the final disappointments to come. They sure did.

Roll credits.

[AlexSing]

Originally Posted by BouCoupDinkyDau

+1

Yes. Lucas so could have really pulled at our emotions and made it truly awesome. Had Anakin been as likable as Luke or Han, and the romance been truly heart aching (rather than a cliched nightmare) it would have been terrible-awesome to see Anakin fall. We would have fallen in love with SW all over again, and Vader would have had this sadness to him that would have been great. We could have watched IV-VI and felt sorry for him the whole time, thinking: It's okay, bro. I know you're not truly evil, just misguided. Luke will show you your true heart.

Instead, we got:

Excellent point.

And do those who continually write long winded and extremely detailed explanations to justify both the love story and the other perceived faults of the PT wonder why, for a kids film, that should even be necessary at all?

[BouCoupDinkyDau]

Originally Posted by AlexSing

Excellent point.

And do those who continually write long winded and extremely detailed explanations to justify both the love story and the other perceived faults of the PT wonder why, for a kids film, that should even be necessary at all?

The 'Kid's Film' defense again. If the prequel fans would just provide one credible excuse as to why it "intentionally" all turned out so horribly instead of falling back on Lucas's ridiculous justifications that simply do not fly (and we all know they don't), there wouldn't be much argument over the matter.