Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[HylianBowcaster]

Originally Posted by budious

I think the dullness came from the prequel trilogy, even if not directly injected with changes into the original trilogy, just the knowledge of the adjusted storyline affects your emotion and absorption of the OT material. The changes to the OT just roots that new narrative that much deeper in overwriting the original presence of the films.

For example, the battle between Luke and Darth Vader was more psychological than physical. The prequels came in and robbed Darth Vader of his image of being dark and manipulative figure into an annoying kid with a bad love life. All the PT fights were choreographed exceptionally well but had no emotion or spirit as the mind games between Luke and Vader. By the time you get to the OT 4.0 you just don't feel it anymore.

Well that's interesting. I have the completely opposite feeling, literally the completely opposite. I found that the PT really added to the background information about the major SW characters, especially Vader and Obi-Wan. That moment when Obi-wan confronts Vader on the Death Star is great knowing that Anakin is probably seeking revenge for what Obi-wan did to him.

[IndyMLVC]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

Not really; the biggest changes don't usually last too long, with the exception of the musical number in "Jedi". Everything else is very minor, so in terms of the whole saga, its not a high number.

Then you haven't noticed the atrocious sound changes as well. The entire mix has been altered.

[Agent Bond]

I'm not terribly offended or disgusted by the changes, and I really don't understand why so many are. They're not some kind of sacred entity, so there's no point in treating them as such.

Because when Lucas does dumb stuff like changing it so Greedo shot first, you can't help, but feel pissed realizing he just ruined Han's character arc by doing that!

The prequels came in and robbed Darth Vader of his image of being dark and manipulative figure into an annoying kid with a bad love life.

Agreed. In Episode IV, Obi-Wan made it sound like Anakin was this badass Jedi who went to the darkside because he was greedy for power. Instead, you find out he was really a whiny, guy trying to save the life of his wife. UGH!

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by budious

The prequels came in and robbed Darth Vader of his image of being dark and manipulative figure into an annoying kid with a bad love life.

He was a lot more than that; you just have to keep the right context in mind. Lucas even said himself that the image of Vader being this evil psycho originally took hold much more than he intended, and that's one of the reasons he made the prequels. Instead of being some mindless machine, we find out there's a fallible, emotional human being behind that mask, trapped by his own hate and thirst for control.

Anakin was a slave, treated like property from a young age, and the only stability he had came from his mother. That was essentially stolen from him, and replaced by something which could be almost worse: a life where intense emotion of any kind was frowned upon, seen as a distraction instead of a benefit. As his power increased, the Jedi Council grew tougher on him, and he resented them for it. His desperation led him back to Tatooine, where he discovered his mother murdered by Tusken Raiders. He flew into a mad rage, and later showed remorse...but that anger was still rooted deeply in his heart. Instead of comfort, the Jedi offer more rules, and only Padme is seen as his salvation.

When Palpatine twists the truth, and the Jedi force him (no pun intended) to spy back, he's trapped all over again. Fearing that Padme will die as his mother did, he grows so desperate that even darkness itself seems appropriate. In the end, he indirectly causes her premature delivery, and crushes her spirit, too. Hating himself for what he's become, the only solace he seeks is power, and when Palpatine lies again about Padme's fate, it destroys him. His choices have turned him into a monster, and over the next 20 years, he seeks a way to destroy his master. After realizing Luke is his son, a small bit of hope is reborn in him, but his lust for control returns, and it takes Luke almost being murdered himself for Anakin to finally say "No!!! Enough!!!"

Originally Posted by Agent Bond

Because when Lucas does dumb sh*t like changing it so Greedo shot first, you can't help, but feel pissed realizing he just ruined Han's character arc by doing that!

I admit it is a little less bold, and I'd prefer Han to shoot first, but ultimately, its not a huge issue for me.

In Episode IV, Obi-Wan made it sound like Anakin was this badass Jedi who went to the dark side because he was greedy for power.

That sentiment isn't found anywhere in the OT; pay attention to Kenobi's dialogue...

Episode IV

"I was once a Jedi Knight, the same as your father...he was the best star pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior...and he was a good friend. A young Jedi named Darth Vader...betrayed and murdered your father."

Episode V

"I don't want to lose you to the Emperor, the way I lost Vader."

Episode VI

Ben: "Your father was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker, and became Darth Vader...I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him."

[Bluyoda]

Originally Posted by Sky_Captain

The worst thing about this set, is not the changes, IMO, but the quite frankly dire extras.

Have you watched all of them yet?

I have found that the best way to watch the extras on Bonus disc 1+2 is to press PLAY ALL.

Really amazing stuff. I fast forwarded when the turnaround models were on.

[mayday72]

Well thats that! I sold my collection . . . it was a bit difficult but it's done now. Perhaps in the years to come GL will remaster & release the originals unedited on blu ray & I will be able to look past the PT (which I don't dislike) and feel the magic again. I know the odds of this happening are a billion to one but never undrestimate the power of greed.

[budious]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

He was a lot more than that; you just have to keep the right context in mind. Lucas even said himself that the image of Vader being this evil psycho originally took hold much more than he intended, and that's one of the reasons he made the prequels. Instead of being some mindless machine, we find out there's a fallible, emotional human being behind that mask, trapped by his own hate and thirst for control.

...

That sentiment isn't found anywhere in the OT; pay attention to Kenobi's dialogue...

...

Luke: How did my father die?
Obi-Wan: A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. Now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force.

He sounds pretty bad ass to me.

GL interpretation outside of the OT doesn't really matter, because once you release the movie, the public and the fans interpret the film and the meaning and construct a cultural heritage around common consensus. OT says Darth Vader is a badass, and that Han shot first. End of discussion.

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by budious

He sounds pretty bad ass to me.

GL interpretation outside of the OT doesn't really matter, because once you release the movie, the public and the fans interpret the film and the meaning and construct a cultural heritage around common consensus. OT says Darth Vader is a badass, and that Han shot first. End of discussion.

The line says that Vader turned to evil, and helped the Empire destroy the Jedi...that doesn't mean he was some cold-hearted scumbag from the start.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Sky_Captain

The worst thing about this set, is not the changes, IMO, but the quite frankly dire extras.

I wouldn't say it was all the way bad, as the OT deleted scenes and the prop turnarounds are excellent IMO. But yeah, the documentaries disc is a complete waste of time and the PT deleted scenes scrape the bottom of the barrel, omitting stuff that STILL hasn't been seen, like Threepio getting his coverings and being given to Padme in Clones. And why not put the DVD deleted scenes - mostly finished at 1080p/2K - on the Blu-ray in high-def, as they were meant to be seen?

As for the PT and OT affecting the enjoyment of one another, I love the way how the PT is basically a "reimagining" of the OT, riffing on the structure of the original films and taking the characters in different directions, whilst filling in the backstory at the same time. Little things are given new contexts, like Vader torturing Han to get Luke's attention in Empire. He knows that force-sensitives can be alerted to pain and suffering even from across the galaxy, because that's exactly what happened to him when his mum was captured by the sand people in Clones. Details like that are why I LOVE Star Wars, the OT, PT, Clone Wars, the lot.

[budious]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

The line says that Vader turned to evil, and helped the Empire destroy the Jedi...that doesn't mean he was some cold-hearted scumbag from the start.

I'm talking about how a viewer should perceive Darth Vader if the PT story is unknown. In a world where the PT does not exist and the OT has not be revised, your perception of Darth Vader is that he large menacing man that likes to choke people and intimidate young women. Then you learn to top it off he killed some poor farm boy's father who was student of some old fart who lives in the desert. The old drunk rambles on about how he and Vader used to kick ass together until Vader wanted more than the good side could offer, so he saber stabbed farm boys dad in face, and made the old man chicken out and run to save his own hide (though he omits it this is implied) and left the rest of the Jedi to be slaughtered by Vader and his Emperor. Then we learn later when Vader and Obi Wan confront each other on the Death Star, that Vader left he was but a student (as opposed to Obi Wan leaving him for dead in a lava pit), but now he is the self-proclaimed master. Obi Wan comments he's only mastered evil presumably at the instruction of the Emperor. Obi Wan surrenders himself because he should have died defending the Old Republic with his fellow Jedi, so he lets Vader cut him down. At this point, all Luke knows is that his father was killed by this bad ass dude known as Darth Vader (as opposed to him actually being his father, that's for the next movie, duh!). Did I miss anything?

[BouCoupDinkyDau]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

Maybe all you guys have simply been listening to too many haters. Does less than 10% being changed ultimately mean that much to all of you?

It does to me. The franchise is like a sore that's been picked at so many times that it has festered into an ugly infection.

It's a good lesson to other filmmakers though. Lucas has provided the industry with the prime example of what not to do:

1. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
2. Story is more important than visuals.
3. Don't surround yourself with yes men.
4. Don't buy into your own hype.
5. Most prequels don't work.
6. Respect your own limitations, and know when to call on others for help.
7. People don't mind "other" editions, but most want the experience they originally had.
8. Too much CGI can turn an audience off.
9. Do more than one take.
10. Direct your actors, don't just record them reciting lines.
11. Cast based on ability, not just if they fit the look you want.
12. People like practical FX and sets because they like to be amazed at the craftmanship involved. This is akin to the old days of magicians where people would be dazzled and then wonder "how did he do that?!"
13. Dialogue and characters are IMPORTANT.

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by budious

I'm talking about how a viewer should perceive Darth Vader if the PT story is unknown. In a world where the PT does not exist and the OT has not be revised, your perception of Darth Vader is that he large menacing man that likes to choke people and intimidate young women.

I don't recall having that perception as a kid. I certainly wondered who he was, and then after the "Empire" reveal, I thought to myself, "something bad must have happened". By the end of "Jedi", I felt sorry for him.

[aiman04]

Now this thread has become sentimental. Honestly my interest is dwindling, but not as much you guys. I can still watch them, but not as much excitement as before. And it's not because of the changes or the prequel. I think when you watch too many times of any movie it'll be the same, and I say the Star Wars Saga holds up pretty well after 30 years and thousands of viewing times.

[BouCoupDinkyDau]

I disagree. I've seen Aliens over 500 times (more than any other movie) and I still enjoy it.

[aiman04]

Originally Posted by BouCoupDinkyDau

I disagree. I've seen Aliens over 500 times (more than any other movie) and I still enjoy it.

Me too. But I've seen the Star Wars movies a lot more than that, more than a thousand times since early 1980s. Almost every week I watched one of the movies.

[al cos.]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

Does less than 10% being changed ultimately mean that much to all of you?

Yes. Especially when there are plenty of other great movies that were left alone to watch now. Given the choice, who needs the annoyance?

[Troy73]

Originally Posted by mayday72

Well thats that! I sold my collection . . . it was a bit difficult but it's done now. Perhaps in the years to come GL will remaster & release the originals unedited on blu ray & I will be able to look past the PT (which I don't dislike) and feel the magic again. I know the odds of this happening are a billion to one but never undrestimate the power of greed.

That shouldn't matter though since you said the Star Wars films have lost their magic for you. If you've grown tired of them even with huge breaks between viewings no re-release will change that.

Sometimes we just out grow certain things. It happens to everyone and there's nothing wrong with it. I think as we get older and see so much we expect more. Our tastes change and memories fall short to realities.

[PUsokrJosh305]

The biggest enjoyment that I can't wait for is showing them to my kids (which won't happen for awhile since I'm still young, lol!!), passing the stories onto the next generation, that's how these movies have continued to live and prosper because they are passed down. It's the same thing that will happen to Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter. I hope one day to pass all of these fantastic stories of Luke, Han, Leia, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Padme, C-3PO, R2-D2, Chewbacca, Darth Vader, and all the rest of the characters on to my children!! And Star Wars will continue to live on until the end of time itself!!

[HylianBowcaster]

Originally Posted by Troy73

That shouldn't matter though since you said the Star Wars films have lost their magic for you. If you've grown tired of them even with huge breaks between viewings no re-release will change that.

Sometimes we just out grow certain things. It happens to everyone and there's nothing wrong with it. I think as we get older and see so much we expect more. Our tastes change and memories fall short to realities.

I'm not too sure that everyone is like this. I've grown bored with some music and often I give it a break for a few months, maybe a year or so, and I come back and enjoy it more than I did before.

[AlexSing]

Originally Posted by BouCoupDinkyDau

It does to me. The franchise is like a sore that's been picked at so many times that it has festered into an ugly infection.

It's a good lesson to other filmmakers though. Lucas has provided the industry with the prime example of what not to do:

1. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
2. Story is more important than visuals.
3. Don't surround yourself with yes men.
4. Don't buy into your own hype.
5. Most prequels don't work.
6. Respect your own limitations, and know when to call on others for help.
7. People don't mind "other" editions, but most want the experience they originally had.
8. Too much CGI can turn an audience off.
9. Do more than one take.
10. Direct your actors, don't just record them reciting lines.
11. Cast based on ability, not just if they fit the look you want.
12. People like practical FX and sets because they like to be amazed at the craftmanship involved. This is akin to the old days of magicians where people would be dazzled and then wonder "how did he do that?!"
13. Dialogue and characters are IMPORTANT.

Excellent post