Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[jala12]

Originally Posted by RyanPom

Lots of the dumb Jar Jar and Padme episodes, and the do nothing episodes where the droids bumble around. Is Darth Maul still alive during the Sith movie, etc.

There are certainly a number of dumb and unnecessary episodes, but the rest of the series is generally pretty good and entertaining. And you can't say things like Anakin's distrust of the order wasn't better developed in the series than in Episode III. As for Maul, I feel as though his fate could have been permanently dealt with if the series were allowed to go on a bit further. For the time being, we have to assume he is still alive at least during the empire era. Maybe Rebels will deal with that.

[crazyBLUE]

Maybe I should change the name of the thread

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by motorheadache95

Yeah, taking into account the Clone Wars series, as well as some of the EU novels and comics really enhances Episode III. I think this is because Episodes I and II (which I think are very poor movies) failed to build up the story and characters to the point where the events of Episode III really make an impact.

We get to see Anakin and Obi Wan's friendship and camaraderie. We get to see Anakin building his abilities as a Jedi Knight, as well as a military commander, and why he stands out so much as unique and powerful among the Jedi. I think the other prequel films needed to focus on this, instead of Episode I: Nothing happens and Episode II: A bad love story/Some clones show up at the end.

This annoyed me more than anything else in the Prequel Trilogy...that I can currently think of...
They can't stand each other for the most part.
There are only 2 times in ALL 6 films where is seemed like there were really good friends...
Episode 3: Just before Obi-Wan leaves for Utapau and Episode 4 when Obi says "And he was a good friend."

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by BillieCassin

You know, I have been on the Internet since about 1992. I have been on many, many discussion groups, BBS, and message boards. And I am still constantly amazed by the level of complete arrogance and the superiority complexes demonstrated on this site. Particularly when it's pithy, mean-spirited and isn't backed up whatsoever.

On most serious discussion boards people who act that way at least take the time to prove their supposed superiority - but here it's perfectly acceptable to "hit'n run". In fact, they cannot help it - it's part of the complex. Even if they want to be rude about it, they know they aren't going to get away with it - but here it's perfectly acceptable to be rude and just say "BS" a few times instead of explaining yourself. It's quite fascinating, if still sad.

So, do either of you care to educate the utterly stupid people like myself who supposedly don't understand some esoteric meaning behind the way Lucas attempted to write himself out of the issue of Padme dying? I'd seriously appreciate being educated here if somehow I am completely ignorant. Padme is my favorite character in the prequels, by a very wide margin, but I can't gut the last ten minutes of her because it simply was not in her character.

If you were criticizing the people you quoted, I think that's unfair, because they didn't "hit and run". While their arguments may have been a bit too concise, I think their approach was fair. I think they were trying to make the point that people "hit and run" with negativity when the real answer is that the story was too sophisticated for those people.

As for the storyline, while I agree that conventional wisdom would say that the impending birth of her children should have given Padme the will to survive, she basically found out that her husband was Hitler (in our terms), that she could no longer rationalize his behavior AND she was physically attacked by his powers. We don't know how much those powers affected her, but I'm sure it was more than cutting off her air supply for a few seconds. (Do the books give more explanation?) I'm satisfied with that explanation. The "died of a broken heart" explanation doesn't mean all that much because they might not have been able to perceive the damage caused by Anakin. (Edit: Just noticed above that Motorheadache95 came to the same conclusion, but stated it much better than I did.)

Personally, I would have liked her to have lived and raised the children in hiding for a few years before she was killed or "died of a broken heart". That would have been more consistent with Leia's line at the end of Episode VI that she remembered her mother. But that also would have taken more exposition and screen time in an already long film.

It's not that I think these films were well written - I think much of the writing, especially in the PT, was terrible. To my view, the horrors Anakin caused in the PT does not permit the redemption that happened in Episode VI. If they had been written in order, the ending of Episode VI would of had to have been different. This is where I think George got very sloppy.

I've posted this before, but I would have liked to have seen an Episode VII where even though the rebels won against the Empire, it soon becomes public knowledge that Vader was Luke's father. Luke is brought to trial where he must prove that he's not also a terrorist and when it becomes known that Leia is the daughter of Vader, she faces a similar fate. Of course they could always turn it into a "soap opera" and discover that even though Vader thought he was Luke and Leia's father, it turns out that he wasn't, either because in her troubles, Padme sought solace with another or because she conceived the same way Anakin's mother did.

In any case, I'm very interested to see whether they go with a sophisticated story for the next movie or whether it's just a bunch of action scenes in space with another illogical idiotic plot about some super-powered alien who wants to take over the universe.

Personally, I'd like to see an old Luke going crazy because he's still hearing/seeing Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda, etc. and no one believes in Jedi anymore because he's the only one.

[BillieCassin]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

If you were criticizing the people you quoted, I think that's unfair, because they didn't "hit and run". While their arguments may have been a bit too concise, I think their approach was fair. I think they were trying to make the point that people "hit and run" with negativity when the real answer is that the story was too sophisticated for those people.

This I guess we will disagree on - saying what someone is saying is "BS" repeatedly, or saying they aren't "sophisticated" enough to understand - another way of calling someone an idiot - and not explaining why exactly is a "hit and run" in my opinion. You can't really be more dismissive than to say, "Oh, you wouldn't understand..." and walk away. My statement was part of a larger idea, using it as an example - if they had asked why I felt the way I did, I would have explained (as I did above).

I still fail to see what is so "sophisticated" about it - I understand the tenets of tragedy, Padme clearly had to die. Even ignoring that, the story dictated it - it just wouldn't have completed that aspect of the story without her dying, it was one of the things on the "checklist" that really needed to happen (along with the droids memories being wiped, etc.) to lead into the OT.

It's not the fact she died that felt out of character, it's how she died. "She shouldn't have died, she is too strong!" would be unsophisticated. Although some dismiss it as a throw-away line, Obi-wan's explanation (in a conversation between two of the most perceptive people in the entire story) feels, no, reeks of "the movie is already running long, let's tie this up real quick since we have to". It's hard to imagine a throw-away line being used in the concluding moments of what is supposed to be an epic trilogy - and Lucas isn't so much known for deep dialogue. His characters generally speak rather directly.

As for the storyline, while I agree that conventional wisdom would say that the impending birth of her children should have given Padme the will to survive, she basically found out that her husband was Hitler (in our terms), that she could no longer rationalize his behavior AND she was physically attacked by his powers. We don't know how much those powers affected her, but I'm sure it was more than cutting off her air supply for a few seconds. (Do the books give more explanation?) I'm satisfied with that explanation. The "died of a broken heart" explanation doesn't mean all that much because they might not have been able to perceive the damage caused by Anakin. (Edit: Just noticed above that Motorheadache95 came to the same conclusion, but stated it much better than I did.)

Yeah, that's why as I said above - the only remotely plausible explanation was physiological. And if that's the case - we are talking about a society with advanced medical knowledge (demonstrated throughout all six films), and two of the wisest of the Jedi (Yoda and Obi-wan), I just don't buy the throw-away line theory. Something tells me Yoda or Obi-wan would have sensed if there was more to it. Like I said, Lucas isn't known for writing terribly deep - "We gotta get out of here", you know? LOL. Obi-wan could have said any number of things to allude to that, I honestly think Lucas intended what was said.

As to her mental trauma at Anakin's transformation, that makes her seem not only weak but stupid. It wasn't like he was rolling around giggling kissing happy puppies before. He was clearly traumatized by his mother's death, she knew about him slaughtering the Sandpeople ("Women...children"), so it shouldn't have been some insane shock. Padme would have been fearing it.

Then we look at Leia. Leia watched her entire planet and basically everyone she ever saw and ever knew, explode. And while it wasn't actually her fault, there obviously was tremendous guilt there (FYI, the newest novel, "Razor's Edge" delves into this and is quite good). All it did was make her stronger. That makes Padme look pretty weak - her baby Daddy turned out to be a creep, comparatively a big whoop. Shatter her emotionally and make her unable to trust? Sure. But to give up will to live, with two children arriving who she knew would be in terrible danger? Supposedly no bond in the world is greater than a mama bear who's children are in danger. Letting a man destroy you over that love is just pathetic, really.

It just makes no sense, unless you are trying to tie up all kinds of plot lines in a movie that was already famously running long.

While I'm not going to bring up the "M"-word, it does speak to Lucas' ineptitude of writing female characters. He somehow lucked out with Leia in Episode IV and V, and part of VI (though he lost her by the end of ROTJ).

Killing Padme was a given, but it could have happened any number of ways - it wasn't sophisticated, it was just poorly executed (no pun intended).

Personally, I would have liked her to have lived and raised the children in hiding for a few years before she was killed or "died of a broken heart". That would have been more consistent with Leia's line at the end of Episode VI that she remembered her mother. But that also would have taken more exposition and screen time in an already long film.

That's one I can agree on, though I find the fan-retcon of "Leia had that impression via the force at birth" to be at least plausible. While I too would have liked her to live on for a bit at least, even if they had to dispatch her as quickly as they did, it would have been far more satisfying for Palpatine to have been involved (sending an assassin to poison her, shoot her, etc.) which would have still allowed her to live long enough to secretly deliver the twins. And still keep in the "tragedy" tone, while at the same time giving a bit more bite to Palpatine, who by the end of III really just looks like a stereotypical Dr. Evil-type villain rubbing his hands together at how his plan is coming to fruition.

It's not that I think these films were well written - I think much of the writing, especially in the PT, was terrible. To my view, the horrors Anakin caused in the PT does not permit the redemption that happened in Episode VI. If they had been written in order, the ending of Episode VI would of had to have been different. This is where I think George got very sloppy.

I agree, but I do think that Padme's death was just another symptom of that.

Overall, the PT was written by Lucas, the father. I think Lucas felt the need to humanize Darth Vader, which in effect ruined him as one of the greatest villains of all time. By the time he got to Episode III, though, he realized he had to really turn him evil or it would all be silly, and that's why we saw such carnage. He went from an angsty, petulant brat to a serial killer way too quickly.

I've posted this before, but I would have liked to have seen an Episode VII where even though the rebels won against the Empire, it soon becomes public knowledge that Vader was Luke's father. Luke is brought to trial where he must prove that he's not also a terrorist and when it becomes known that Leia is the daughter of Vader, she faces a similar fate. Of course they could always turn it into a "soap opera" and discover that even though Vader thought he was Luke and Leia's father, it turns out that he wasn't, either because in her troubles, Padme sought solace with another or because she conceived the same way Anakin's mother did.

In any case, I'm very interested to see whether they go with a sophisticated story for the next movie or whether it's just a bunch of action scenes in space with another illogical idiotic plot about some super-powered alien who wants to take over the universe.

Personally, I'd like to see an old Luke going crazy because he's still hearing/seeing Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda, etc. and no one believes in Jedi anymore because he's the only one.

I think Abrams is "sophisticated" enough to do that - he was held so tightly in the first Trek movie to "this must happen, and this" in order to make the whole thing work as an alternate universe, but when you look at Into Darkness (bringing this full-circle since that's where this discussion about Padme off-shot from) there certainly was a lot of social commentary and deeper themes in that film.

Supposedly the new trilogy is based on outlines/treatments done by Lucas, and since it's been 20 years since he outlined the prequels, and he does seem to understand some of the missteps he may have made, his children are grown now - he's dealing with his own mortality - I think all of it will add up to something more sophisticated than we have seen previously.

I also have the feeling (and I'm not going to mark this as a spoiler because it's utter speculation) that we will see Han killed relatively quickly (possibly in the first film) and Luke somehow responsible (even indirectly) on his path dark. But that's just my theory. I have no attachment to it, but I am betting that Harrison doesn't need any more money, that's not why he's doing these films - as we know, he was supposed to die in Star Wars, and lobbied hard to be killed in ROTJ - I think the only way he would have come back is if he was promised that he could finally let Han RIP.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

If you were criticizing the people you quoted, I think that's unfair, because they didn't "hit and run". While their arguments may have been a bit too concise, I think their approach was fair. I think they were trying to make the point that people "hit and run" with negativity when the real answer is that the story was too sophisticated for those people.

Speaking for myself, I was being sarcastic. I thought that was pretty clear (which is why I thought an explicit eyeroll emoticon would have been a little too on the nose) but maybe not.

To be perfectly clear now - I am not in the 'George was being operatic' camp when it comes to Padme losing the will to live. It thought that was terribly handled and essentially gutted a genuinely heroic character.

Then again, I'm not a big opera fan so I don't really know. Maybe strong female characters routinely respond to heartbreak by flinging themselves from parapets. But I suspect they don't. At least not in good operas anyway.

[RyanPom]

Originally Posted by jala12

There are certainly a number of dumb and unnecessary episodes, but the rest of the series is generally pretty good and entertaining. And you can't say things like Anakin's distrust of the order wasn't better developed in the series than in Episode III. As for Maul, I feel as though his fate could have been permanently dealt with if the series were allowed to go on a bit further. For the time being, we have to assume he is still alive at least during the empire era. Maybe Rebels will deal with that.

I wouldn't be surprised if they actually bring back Maul for Episode 7 or 8. Having Luke VS Maul would be a nice touch, actually.

[Jumpman]

Originally Posted by RyanPom

I wouldn't be surprised if they actually bring back Maul for Episode 7 or 8. Having Luke VS Maul would be a nice touch, actually.

I hope not. I'm not watching this new trilogy anyway but leave Maul in the Prequel era. Just let him be a case of unsolved mysteries. It's really the only one from the Clone Wars that's unanswered.

[Falaskan]

So are the DVD copies of the new set from the Blu-ray masters or from previous DVD releases?

[stvn1974]

Originally Posted by Falaskan

So are the DVD copies of the new set from the Blu-ray masters or from previous DVD releases?

Blu-ray. Important stuff like blinking Ewoks, magically appearing and disappearing rock and now with bonus "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO".

[Falaskan]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

Blu-ray. Important stuff like blinking Ewoks, magically appearing and disappearing rock and now with bonus "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO".

crap. no sale!

[Roonan]

Originally Posted by KaineKinetic

There are only 2 times in ALL 6 films where is seemed like there were really good friends...
Episode 3: Just before Obi-Wan leaves for Utapau and Episode 4 when Obi says "And he was a good friend."

And at the beginning of Episode II and the whole first act of III. Not to mention the various times it's implied in the dialogue.

On-topic: Did anyone bought any of these sets? I would like to see the inside.

[motorheadache95]

Originally Posted by Roonan

And at the beginning of Episode II and the whole first act of III. Not to mention the various times it's implied in the dialogue.

On-topic: Did anyone bought any of these sets? I would like to see the inside.

The opening act of Episode III is the part before Obi Wan leaves for Utapau. I really liked that sequence because it FINALLY shows a scene of Obi Wan and Anakin working together as friends (although it gets awkward towards the end).

Everything else is the problem I have with the movies: We aren't shown the relationship between the two, we are merely told about it (as you mentioned with the implications in the dialogue). All we see in the films is Obi Wan scolding Anakin, while Anakin whines and complains about Obi Wan. Oh, but apparently at some point they had a funny thing happen involving falling into a nest of Gundarks that we didn't get to see. Woo hoo.

Contrast this with the original films, in which we watch the characters meet each other, not really get along at first, but develop a trusted friendship and camaraderie throughout the three films. That's why I love those movies and actually care about those characters.

For me, even though I actually like Episode III okay, I still felt because of the writing and the way the characters were handled, the finale where Anakin and Obi Wan face each other down still kind of falls flat, because throughout all three movies, there was only ONE scene with them at the beginning of the third movie that GENUINELY made them come off as friends and comrades-in-arms.

Until the Clone Wars series came out.

[Donl1282]

Sorry if this has been answered but do the 2 2013 blu ray re-release sets contain new extras and transfers? Do the discs slide out like the 2011 release or are they the press down discs?

[serenityncc880]

Originally Posted by Donl1282

Sorry if this has been answered but do the 2 2013 blu ray re-release sets contain new extras and transfers? Do the discs slide out like the 2011 release or are they the press down discs?

all i've been able to find is that there will be new commentaries. Such a lame cash grab after only 2 years...

[Rizor]

Originally Posted by Donl1282

Sorry if this has been answered but do the 2 2013 blu ray re-release sets contain new extras and transfers? Do the discs slide out like the 2011 release or are they the press down discs?

I'm pretty sure they're just the existing movie Blu-ray discs with DVD copies (probably from 2004). I thought they were in traditional Blu-ray keep cases when I saw them in store, but I'm not positive.

[stvn1974]

They are the BDs of the six films that were released in 2011 and the DVDs are of the same versions of the films from 2011. Nothing new. Can't comment on the packaging.

[Wolf-man]

Is there anything missing from these "new" releases that was on the previous blu-ray release?

[stvn1974]

Originally Posted by Wolf-man

Is there anything missing from these "new" releases that was on the previous blu-ray release?

The Ewok blinks one less time on these new releases. Just kidding, they are the same discs as the two previous stand alone trilogies. No extras except for commentaries. The extras are all on the Complete Saga box set.

[Weirded Wonder]

What's with the missing scenes found on some demo laserdisc won via ebay? Where can I see this?