Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Kryptonic]

Anyone pick up the Frames book? Holy cow is it awesome...and huge!

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by RayCRP

We're still discussing viewing order??

I absolutely hated trying to watch the series in that flashback/detour order. Even as a flashback, the prequels are such different movies from the original trilogy that to insert them into the middle (and take a flashback longer than the combined ANH/TESB episodes that precede it) really messes with the flow and pacing of the OT and sort of removes me from that experience, which as I understand it is the opposite intention of the order (to make the OT the focus).

I think the prequels, including TPM, are decent movies in their own right. It's not that they pale in comparison to the original trilogy that makes this flashback order not work for me, it's that the two trilogies are so different thematically and visually (among other reasons) that I prefer to keep them as separate trilogies. The Star Wars Trilogy. The Star Wars Prequel Trilogy.

Since I'm familiar with the series by now, I don't mind viewing them 123456 or 456123. When I eventually have kids and introduce them to the movies, I'll do so in the order of 456123789. After that, I'll accepting viewing in either theatrical release order or chronological order, but that's it.

I call the The Empire Trilogy and The Republic Trilogy

[blonde_devil]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

Sure it does. The main message of The Phantom Menace is not the origin of Vader (most people seem to believe this) as that's just a side note. Instead, it's how a good individual can turn to evil and what sparks those tendencies in the first place. That's why the middle part of the film spends so much time on Yoda and Windu referencing fear, anger and hate. TPM essentially shows why Anakin will rise and fall in the remaining 5 films.

The story has relevance but the way it was done was poor. Really they could have written a few more lines into the elevator scene between Kenobi and Anakin in Attack of the Clones and accomplished the same thing. Lucas just tried cramming too many things into the movie to make it work and instead it just made a mess. Why does Palpatine need to "convince" Padme that the Chancellor is not doing his job so he can get rid of him? He would have access to him, why not just use the Force and Jedi mind trick to get him to do things you want and eventually take over? He can at least blame him down the road when people complain. The whole trade issue wasn't needed and took away from what could have been a good movie. Phantom Menace shows the basic problem with the new trilogy - good ideas but poorly thought through and executed. I think they got better as they went along but it isn't hard to see why Phantom Menace gets ignored by a lot of people.

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by blonde_devil

The story has relevance but the way it was done was poor. Really they could have written a few more lines into the elevator scene between Kenobi and Anakin in Attack of the Clones and accomplished the same thing. Lucas just tried cramming too many things into the movie to make it work and instead it just made a mess. Why does Palpatine need to "convince" Padme that the Chancellor is not doing his job so he can get rid of him? He would have access to him, why not just use the Force and Jedi mind trick to get him to do things you want and eventually take over? He can at least blame him down the road when people complain. The whole trade issue wasn't needed and took away from what could have been a good movie. Phantom Menace shows the basic problem with the new trilogy - good ideas but poorly thought through and executed. I think they got better as they went along but it isn't hard to see why Phantom Menace gets ignored by a lot of people.

I agree somewhat, but I don't think it could have been covered briefly in Episode II. IMHO you could have combined the two into a single film and gotten rid of a lot of filler, but saying that it could been accomplished in a single conversation is just silly.

[Geoff D]

I watched Phantom Menace again yesterday, and I've got to say that I still like the film quite a bit. The trouble is, Lucas made the mistake of thinking he could treat the audience like he did with the first movie, i.e. throw them into the middle of a story and hope they could keep up, and the script assumes a lot on the audience's behalf; Yoda is referred to by name but never actually addressed as such in the film, which is very lazy writing.

With the original, it was a straightforward tale of a boy, a girl and a universe (to paraphrase the trailer) so there wasn't much to grasp. But when you're dealing with a backstory of taxation of trade routes in a corrupt galactic senate filled with thousands of members, you can't just throw that at the audience and expect them to run with it.

But I understand it now, having watched the prequels many times. Palps wants to engineer a crisis in the Senate to undermine the Chancellor, so he can make a bid for power. Why not just use a mind trick? Well, the Jedi are stupid in these movies, but not that stupid; they would notice such a brazen attempt at seizing power, and being at full strength they would be able to overpower him easily.

Yes, it's all very convoluted but the whole point of Palps doing it a bit at a time is so that he goes unnoticed, eventually engineering an entire war in secret so that he can undermine the Jedi both physically (by killing them off) and spiritually (by turning them into warmongers). When all the pieces are in place, and the galaxy has torn itself apart through war, he pulls off his spectacular power play and all but eradicates the Jedi.

When I give some proper thought to the prequels I can't help but admire the labyrinthine way that they're put together - then I press 'play' on the remote and I'm confronted with a farting CG animal or dumb dialogue like "I wish that I could wish away my feelings".

As you say blondie, "good ideas but poorly...executed" is pretty much the PT encapsulated in a single sentence.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I watched Phantom Menace again yesterday, and I've got to say that I still like the film quite a bit. The trouble is, Lucas made the mistake of thinking he could treat the audience like he did with the first movie, i.e. throw them into the middle of a story and hope they could keep up, and the script assumes a lot on the audience's behalf; Yoda is referred to by name but never actually addressed as such in the film, which is very lazy writing.

With the original, it was a straightforward tale of a boy, a girl and a universe (to paraphrase the trailer) so there wasn't much to grasp. But when you're dealing with a backstory of taxation of trade routes in a corrupt galactic senate filled with thousands of members, you can't just throw that at the audience and expect them to run with it.

But I understand it now, having watched the prequels many times. Palps wants to engineer a crisis in the Senate to undermine the Chancellor, so he can make a bid for power. Why not just use a mind trick? Well, the Jedi are stupid in these movies, but not that stupid; they would notice such a brazen attempt at seizing power, and being at full strength they would be able to overpower him easily.

Yes, it's all very convoluted but the whole point of Palps doing it a bit at a time is so that he goes unnoticed, eventually engineering an entire war in secret so that he can undermine the Jedi both physically (by killing them off) and spiritually (by turning them into warmongers). When all the pieces are in place, and the galaxy has torn itself apart through war, he pulls off his spectacular final gambit and all but eradicates the Jedi.

When I give some proper thought to the prequels I can't help but admire the labyrinthine way that they're put together - then I press 'play' on the remote and I'm confronted with a farting CG animal or dumb dialogue like "I wish that I could wish away my feelings".

As you say blondie, "good ideas but poorly...executed" is pretty much the PT encapsulated in a single sentence.

Well said.

I think The Phantom Menace has aged better as time has gone on, as well.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

Well said.

I think The Phantom Menace has aged better as time has gone on, as well.

I've always said it's the most Star Wars-like movie of all three prequels. There's loads of terrific model work, it's shot on anamorphic 35mm (though you wouldn't bloody well know it from the horribly DNR'ed Blu-ray) and I love all the callbacks to the OT.

The dialogue is terribly clunky and the lack of an actual menace - as opposed to the Phantom of the title - robs it of the impetus that drives the OT, but it can excite when it wants to. I love the pod race, being Ben Hur by way of CG, and the cross-cut end battle is expertly put together, as is the lightsaber fight between Obi-Wan and Darth Maul. That bit when Obi surges out of the energy barrier and attacks Maul is a breathtaking bit of choreography.

Right, I think I'll give Clones a spin tonight. It can't be any worse than I remember....can it?

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I've always said it's the most Star Wars-like movie of all three prequels. There's loads of terrific model work, it's shot on anamorphic 35mm (though you wouldn't bloody well know it from the horribly DNR'ed Blu-ray) and I love all the callbacks to the OT.

The dialogue is terribly clunky and the lack of an actual menace - as opposed to the Phantom of the title - robs it of the impetus that drives the OT, but it can excite when it wants to. I love the pod race, being Ben Hur by way of CG, and the cross-cut end battle is expertly put together, as is the lightsaber fight between Obi-Wan and Darth Maul. That bit when Obi surges out of the energy barrier and attacks Maul is a breathtaking bit of choreography.

Right, I think I'll give Clones a spin tonight. It can't be any worse than I remember....can it?

Skip past the Naboo scenes and it's much more tolerable IMHO.

[Geoff D]

Sure. I love seeing the Jedi go to war and Yoda kicking some arse, it's some of my favourite stuff in the whole saga. But damn, all that love story guff is just soooooooo bad - however, I'm not one for skipping things over. If I got to wade through crap to get to the gold, so be it.

[Rambaldi47]

I think the prequels should not have been about Anakin's fall, but about Obi-Wan and how he tried and failed to train Anakin, you know, like how it was said in A New Hope? They did a horrible job showing the brotherly bond between them, too. Clone Wars did a much better job.

For those who didn't really like The Phantom Menace, I suggest reading the book "Darth Plagueis." It really sheds light on Palpatine's massive plan, why he used Naboo/Padme, how Maul and Dooku were apprentices at the same time, and what the hell was up with the Sifo-Dyas thing. Knowing all of this actually made me like TPM. AOTC would've been a good movie, if not for Hayden's horrible acting/bad dialogue/Ewan's hair.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by blonde_devil

Can't disagree with you there - everyone is entitled to an opinion but not everyone's opinion is equal. But it is not the medium that makes it bad - people need to realise that. And you can't dismiss an opinion just because they are a fan or not "in the business". Bob Orci was quick to point out that he writes for a living and the complaining fans don't - fans like Ron Moore wrote TNG during its successful years and went on to successful careers and TNG was his first writing job. Also, what does that say about JJ and Star Wars since he has said he was a fan of the original films? Maybe he isn't the right person to work on them? It is very strange that when you are a fan and saying how great a film is, people accept it with no reasons needed but when you say something is bad and can explain why, you are just some idiot behind a keyboard who doesn't count.

In the end, the film maker has to do what they think is right and can't be at the whim of the fans but they can't be surprised when they get negative feedback from the audience over decisions that they made. If the audience is just sitting there going "Jar-Jar sucks" and nothing more, then yeah ignore it but if they provide constructive and logical reasons why they didn't like it, they have every right to express it without being shunned. There is no law that says the film maker needs to read or reply to the opinions.

I wasn't thrilled by the 3D conversion of Phantom Menace but with a new movie coming out, it does make sense to release them and get the hype started. I would go to see Star Wars in 3D especially if it was in IMAX format.

I'm of a different mind on 3D and so apparently is the market. 3D ticket sales declined this past year and at CES, most of the TV set manufacturers aren't even mentioning 3D even when the sets have the functionality. Instead, they're pushing UHD, curved screens and in at least one case (LG, I think), 21:9 AR screens. For me, given a choice between a 3D presentation and a Dolby Atmos sound mix, I'd opt for the sound.

My personal opinion is that most of the 3D I've been forced to see has been pretty bad. Instead of providing depth that makes the movie more exciting, one sees a series of successive flat planes. In addition, the dimness of digital 3D projection makes me crazy. The dimness issue should be resolved once we move to laser lamp projection over the next few years, but I think there's only been two films where I was legitimately impressed by the 3D: "Hugo" and "Gravity", although I think "Gravity" would have been just about as impressive without the 3D.

When I saw the trailer for Star Wars 3D, it looked horrible to me, so I didn't give George any more of my money. The trailer for the latest Tolkien movie also looked horrible to me in 3D and HFR will make it even worse.

[phlyle11]

I was (re)watching AOTC this past weekend, and it always kills me how much better the prequels could have been. I am not anti-prequel by any means, I think there is some value in all three, but some of the acting just makes me cringe. Every time Sam Jackson says a line, I am taken out of the movie and my mind drifts off to when it was being shot and I imagine SJ just finishes an oscar-caliber take, and George says, "Sam, that was real nice acting, but I was looking for something a little more, uhh, umm, wooden?" Some of those scenes feel like Lucas used the worst possible take he could get out of them. I just wish he could have either separated himself from the script or the directing. Watching him interact with cast and crew in some of the bonus features is almost embarrassing in his awkwardness.

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

I'm of a different mind on 3D and so apparently is the market. 3D ticket sales declined this past year and at CES, most of the TV set manufacturers aren't even mentioning 3D even when the sets have the functionality. Instead, they're pushing UHD, curved screens and in at least one case (LG, I think), 21:9 AR screens. For me, given a choice between a 3D presentation and a Dolby Atmos sound mix, I'd opt for the sound.

My personal opinion is that most of the 3D I've been forced to see has been pretty bad. Instead of providing depth that makes the movie more exciting, one sees a series of successive flat planes. In addition, the dimness of digital 3D projection makes me crazy. The dimness issue should be resolved once we move to laser lamp projection over the next few years, but I think there's only been two films where I was legitimately impressed by the 3D: "Hugo" and "Gravity", although I think "Gravity" would have been just about as impressive without the 3D.

When I saw the trailer for Star Wars 3D, it looked horrible to me, so I didn't give George any more of my money. The trailer for the latest Tolkien movie also looked horrible to me in 3D and HFR will make it even worse.

Both Hobbit films have impressed me immensely when it comes to their use of 3D both in the theater and at home. Some other excellent 3D titles include all of the IMAX titles, Dredd, A Christmas Carol, The Adventures of Tintin, Oz the Great and Powerful, Tangled, and TRON: Legacy. There are some other good ones, but these immediately come to mind.

[BouCoupDinkyDau]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

Sure it does. The main message of The Phantom Menace is not the origin of Vader (most people seem to believe this) as that's just a side note. Instead, it's how a good individual can turn to evil and what sparks those tendencies in the first place. That's why the middle part of the film spends so much time on Yoda and Windu referencing fear, anger and hate. TPM essentially shows why Anakin will rise and fall in the remaining 5 films.

Yeah, but dude, that could have been communicated in like a 30min sidebar. You could have had something like The Animatrix for SW to get that point across, or spent more time with Anikin and less on the horrendous "love story" and politics of Attack of the Awful Movie.

[Panama Jack]

Originally Posted by phlyle11

I was (re)watching AOTC this past weekend, and it always kills me how much better the prequels could have been. I am not anti-prequel by any means, I think there is some value in all three, but some of the acting just makes me cringe. Every time Sam Jackson says a line, I am taken out of the movie and my mind drifts off to when it was being shot and I imagine SJ just finishes an oscar-caliber take, and George says, "Sam, that was real nice acting, but I was looking for something a little more, uhh, umm, wooden?" Some of those scenes feel like Lucas used the worst possible take he could get out of them. I just wish he could have either separated himself from the script or the directing. Watching him interact with cast and crew in some of the bonus features is almost embarrassing in his awkwardness.

Hasn't Hayden said that before? That he would do the scenes the way he wanted to do them with a more gritty serious tone, and Lucas would have them do them over and over and over again that he'd do a cry-baby whiny take just for the sake of variety and then, bam, those are the ones Lucas would use in the final films?

But yes, that is always my reaction as well. I like the Prequels, but man it kills me every time thinking how much better they could have been if someone else had written the dialogue and directed.

[BouCoupDinkyDau]

Originally Posted by Panama Jack

Hasn't Hayden said that before? That he would do the scenes the way he wanted to do them with a more gritty serious tone, and Lucas would have them do them over and over again that he'd do a cry-baby whiny take just for the sake of variety and then, bam, those are the ones Lucas would use in the final films?

Star Wars isn't supposed to be serious or whiny. It's supposed to be fun (something I experienced very little of in the prequels).

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by Panama Jack

Hasn't Hayden said that before? That he would do the scenes the way he wanted to do them with a more gritty serious tone, and Lucas would have them do them over and over and over again that he'd do a cry-baby whiny take just for the sake of variety and then, bam, those are the ones Lucas would use in the final films?

But yes, that is always my reaction as well. I like the Prequels, but man it kills me every time thinking how much better they could have been if someone else had written the dialogue and directed.

Exactly and Portman's deliveries left a lot to be desired as well.

[blonde_devil]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

I agree somewhat, but I don't think it could have been covered briefly in Episode II. IMHO you could have combined the two into a single film and gotten rid of a lot of filler, but saying that it could been accomplished in a single conversation is just silly.

For sure that would have been better but nothing happens in Phantom Menace that has any real impact in the next movie other than the Jedis and Padme find him. He is already all hot and bothered at the thought of seeing Padme in the film, all they would need to say is something like "I was a child when you found me. You took me from my mother, my home and gave me a new life" and you are done. Don't need to get into how gifted he is - all Jedi are gifted and he can show he is more gifted in the later movies. Ideally I and II should have been one movie but I can see why it can easily be dismissed.

ZoetMB, you are right on about Star Wars. That was the issue I had with it in 3D - it wasn't really. It was a bunch of flat pictures arranged by the computer to try and give you some depth but in the end, it didn't. With a 3D movie, there is no way you should be able to watch it without glasses - there are 2 images there to capture the depth so there should always be some overlap, etc. With Phantom Menace, lots of times it was clear without the glasses it was just flat images. Really disappointing.

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

I'm of a different mind on 3D and so apparently is the market. 3D ticket sales declined this past year and at CES, most of the TV set manufacturers aren't even mentioning 3D even when the sets have the functionality. Instead, they're pushing UHD, curved screens and in at least one case (LG, I think), 21:9 AR screens. For me, given a choice between a 3D presentation and a Dolby Atmos sound mix, I'd opt for the sound.

~snip~

Toshiba started this last year with their LapTops.
I'm surprized that it took this long for TV's...

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by Panama Jack

Hasn't Hayden said that before? That he would do the scenes the way he wanted to do them with a more gritty serious tone, and Lucas would have them do them over and over and over again that he'd do a cry-baby whiny take just for the sake of variety and then, bam, those are the ones Lucas would use in the final films?

But yes, that is always my reaction as well. I like the Prequels, but man it kills me every time thinking how much better they could have been if someone else had written the dialogue and directed.

I don't remember if it was on the DvD's or not, but there were behind the scenes footage of Hayden/Natalie for the scene where she packs to go into hiding and this is shown very clearly.
Lucas was "ok, but try it this way now"
It was a worse take than the previous one...