Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[RayCRP]

Originally Posted by JimmyTwoTimes

George really screwed the pooch on that one. I'm sure the EU has tried its best to plug the holes, but it shouldn't have to. This stuff should have been explained in the films which are the only thing that 90% of people who are asking the question will be exposed to.

It was supposed to be in Sith, right before Organa interrupts Yoda, but the scene was never finished.

From the official Revenge of the Sith novelization, which apparently went through a line-by-line editing by Lucas:

"My failure, this was. Failed the Jedi, I did."

He spoke to the Force. And the Force answered him.

"Do not blame yourself, my old friend."

As it sometimes had these past thirteen years, when the Force spoke to him, it spoke in the voice of Qui-Gon Jinn.

"Too old I was," Yoda said. "Too rigid. Too arrogant to see that the old way is not the only way. These Jedi, I trained to become the Jedi who had trained me, long centuries ago—but those ancient Jedi, of a different time they were. Changed, has the galaxy. Changed, the Order did not—because let it change, I did not."

"More easily said than done, my friend."

"An infinite mystery is the Force." Yoda lifted his head and turned his gaze out into the wheel of stars. "Much to learn, there still is."

"And you will have time to learn it."

"Infinite knowledge..." Yoda shook his head. "Infinite time, does that require."

"With my help, you can learn to join with the Force, yet retain consciousness. You can join your light to it forever, Perhaps in time, even your physical self."

Yoda did not move. "Eternal life..."

"The ultimate goal of the Sith, yet they can never achieve it; it comes only by the release of self, not the exaltation of self. It comes through compassion, not greed. Love is the answer to the darkness."

"Become one with the Force, yet influence still to have..." Yoda mused. "A power greater than all, it is."

"It cannot be granted; it can only be taught. It is yours to learn, if you wish it."

Slowly, Yoda nodded. "A very great Jedi Master you have become, Qui-Gon Jinn. A very great Jedi Master you always were, but too blind I was to see it."

He rose, and folded his hands before him, and inclined his head in the Jedi bow of respect.

The bow of the student, in the presence of the Master.

"Your apprentice, I gratefully become."

This was also reflected in the Revenge of the Sith screenplay, albeit in an abbreviated form:

YODA: "Failed to stop the Sith Lord, I have. Still much to learn, there is..."

QUI-GON: "Patience. You will have time. I did not. When I became one with the Force I made a great discovery. With my training, you will be able to merge with the Force at will. Your physical self will fade away, but you will still retain your consciousness. You will become more powerful than any Sith."

YODA: "Eternal consciousness."

QUI-GON: "The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed."

YODA: ". . . to become one with the Force, and influence still have . . . A power greater than all, it is."

QUI-GON: "You will learn to let go of everything. No attachment, no thought of self. No physical self."

YODA: "A great Jedi Master, you have become, Qui-Gon Jinn. Your apprentice I gratefully become."

In the AOTC commentary, Lucas himself points out that Qui-Gon's voice during Yoda's meditation was a subtle establishing of Qui-Gon's ability to make a connection with Yoda through the Force, even though it, up through the saga thus-far (in episode order), hadn't been established. He then SPECIFICALLY states that this will become a factor in Episode III.

In "Making of Revenge of the Sith," Lucas himself acknowledges that we never see his body as a Force ghost. He's able to retain his personal identity, but he's not so accomplished as to have retained his physical image.

In the ROTJ commentary, Lucas states that Luke burning Vader's body wasn't in the original script, but that it gave more closure to the film. According to Lorenzo Bouzereau in Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays, it was then decided that if "Vader becomes one with the dark side of the Force, he will lose all identity. If he turns to the good side, he will pass through the Netherworld" and that Yoda and Obi-wan "will rescue him before he becomes one with the Force."

Originally Posted by JimmyTwoTimes

But Qui-Gon didn't disappear and become a ghost. So he figured this out when he was dead. And it took him a few years to tell anyone. So his body didn't disappear, but his spirit was out there somewhere or something. So he told Yoda who told Obi-Wan and I guess the two of them figured out the parts that dead Qui-Gon didn't because they got to disappear and be ghosts that people could see, while Qui-Gon's invisible spirit is presumably still out there whispering in people's ears. I don't know, I still think I'm missing something.

My understanding is that Qui-Gon learned of the process long before he died, but not quite how to retain his physical self (i.e., a visible ghost). Notice in the novelization, he states that, "Perhaps in time, even your physical self [can join the Force]," suggesting that he hadn't mastered that process before he died, but that he was hopeful Yoda would figure it out, and that he and Obi-wan would study it together.

The fact is, this was all supposed to be explained in Revenge of the Sith. But at some point in post, they decided to not finish the scene. IIRC, they couldn't quite get the scene to work, at least not in time. Whatever, I understand. But at the very least they should have had (or still should have) Liam Neeson and Frank Oz record the dialogue, so that the scene could be added at some point in the future. Of the many possible changes that can and may be made to the series in the future, this is one that needs to be made.

[manunited1]

Yoda also disappeared btw, so obi wan was not the only one. As for anakins ghost coming back idk lol. That is a very short time to learn said trick.

As for my Chewie memories, these were all thoughts conjured up by a young child and carried until now so they may not have been sound so I can see your point. They never really suggest anything into how their relationship started. Han may have saved him from Trandoshans on some smuggling run to Kashyyyk or something epic. You can make some pretty strong connections in 19 years. Hopefully we get a good origin film for Han

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Originally Posted by RayCRP

It was supposed to be in Sith, right before Organa interrupts Yoda, but the scene was never finished.

From the official Revenge of the Sith novelization, which apparently went through a line-by-line editing by Lucas:



This was also reflected in the Revenge of the Sith screenplay, albeit in an abbreviated form:



In the AOTC commentary, Lucas himself points out that Qui-Gon's voice during Yoda's meditation was a subtle establishing of Qui-Gon's ability to make a connection with Yoda through the Force, even though it, up through the saga thus-far (in episode order), hadn't been established. He then SPECIFICALLY states that this will become a factor in Episode III.

In "Making of Revenge of the Sith," Lucas himself acknowledges that we never see his body as a Force ghost. He's able to retain his personal identity, but he's not so accomplished as to have retained his physical image.

In the ROTJ commentary, Lucas states that Luke burning Vader's body wasn't in the original script, but that it gave more closure to the film. According to Lorenzo Bouzereau in Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays, it was then decided that if "Vader becomes one with the dark side of the Force, he will lose all identity. If he turns to the good side, he will pass through the Netherworld" and that Yoda and Obi-wan "will rescue him before he becomes one with the Force."



My understanding is that Qui-Gon learned of the process long before he died, but not quite how to retain his physical self (i.e., a visible ghost). Notice in the novelization, he states that, "Perhaps in time, even your physical self [can join the Force]," suggesting that he hadn't mastered that process before he died, but that he was hopeful Yoda would figure it out, and that he and Obi-wan would study it together.

The fact is, this was all supposed to be explained in Revenge of the Sith. But at some point in post, they decided to not finish the scene. IIRC, they couldn't quite get the scene to work, at least not in time. Whatever, I understand. But at the very least they should have had (or still should have) Liam Neeson and Frank Oz record the dialogue, so that the scene could be added at some point in the future. Of the many possible changes that can and may be made to the series in the future, this is one that needs to be made.

That's fair, and it helps to make sense of this, at least as much sense as something like this can make. It's also good to know that Lucas sort of had a plan going in. But even the explanations you gave seem like retcons. I'll wager a guess and say that they probably are. I think it was a mistake not to have Qui-Gon disappear. Even if it wasn't, I don't think Lucas had the whole thing figured out in his head. Some ideas, perhaps, but mostly, "I'll figure it out later." As the years went by, I think he had to do a lot of scrambling and backtracking to come up with something that just barely works. And when he did that, it wasn't in the movies due to any number of factors. It's really too bad.

But thanks for the info, it does help a little bit.

[manunited1]

Qui Gon also died not fully expecting it, Obi Wan and Yoda knew it was coming so maybe that is something...

[RayCRP]

Originally Posted by JimmyTwoTimes

That's fair, and it helps to make sense of this, at least as much sense as something like this can make. It's also good to know that Lucas sort of had a plan going in. But even the explanations you gave seem like retcons. I'll wager a guess and say that they probably are. I think it was a mistake not to have Qui-Gon disappear. Even if it wasn't, I don't think Lucas had the whole thing figured out in his head. Some ideas, perhaps, but mostly, "I'll figure it out later." As the years went by, I think he had to do a lot of scrambling and backtracking to come up with something that just barely works. And when he did that, it wasn't in the movies due to any number of factors. It's really too bad.

But thanks for the info, it does help a little bit.

Well, it's all a series of retcons, sure. Let's see if I can shed some light on that, based on everything's that come out regarding it...

Obi-wan wasn't originally going to die in A New Hope. But to make Vader appear as more of a threat and since Obi-wan didn't really do much at Yavin, Lucas decided to have Obi-wan sacrifice himself and speak to Luke through the Force.

When writing Return of the Jedi, Lucas explored the idea of this ability being something that could be (and needed to be) taught, since Vader had stomped on Obi-wan's leftover cloak in bewilderment. An early concept for ROTJ was to have Obi-wan return via the Netherworld of the Force and help Luke in his final battle against Vader and Palpatine, with Yoda there as well. At the end, Yoda and Obi-wan would teach a redeemed Anakin their knowledge of the Force to save Anakin's soul from being lost within the Force. It was Kasdan who helped Lucas decide against that idea of Obi-wan and Yoda assisting in the final battle, instead keeping Obi-wan and Yoda to their scenes on Dagobah and Endor. Thus, Anakin's body does not disappear as Obi-wan's and Yoda's did. He was never taught.

Lucas intentionally wrote Qui-Gon's death so that he didn't vanish at the end of The Phantom Menace. Attack of the Clones was supposed to hint that he had become an incorporeal ghost, with Revenge of the Sith explaining why, and then suggesting that Qui-Gon would teach what he had discovered to Yoda (and Obi-wan) prior to the events of A New Hope.

[Geoff D]

Yep. Lucas did not have Qui-Gon disappear quite deliberately, simply because he was going to reveal the mystery of the Force Ghosts. And, as Ray said, Lucas actually says in the Clones DVD commentary that this will be specifically addressed in the third movie - and then he ****ing junked it!

IIRC much the same thing was said about the retro-fitted Sifo-Dyas mystery, which was again ignored in the next movie and explained in the EU instead, and when pressed on it Lucas haughtily said that it was already explained in Ep II.

[rickah88]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

I think people can agree/disagree without getting personal.

Non-approved artworks and all.

Did it bug you in Air Force One the F-15s at Ramstein had our "EG" (Eglin AFB) tail IDs?

It's not personal. Believe me I don't get paid enough here to make it personal!
It's your opinion, definitely. You'd be very hard pressed to find a lot of support of that opinion, that's all....but hey, to each his own.

Yeah that was a noticable goof in Air Force One, but there was a lot more left desired in that movie than fighter jet tail markings!

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by JimmyTwoTimes

I think Force ghosts were always kind of a problem, a result of ANH being a single movie before the mythology took on a life of its own in the sequels. In the original film, it worked because no one (including Lucas) really knew what was going on with Obi-Wan's disappearance. Vader was puzzled by it and the voice heard by Luke was mysterious and a little ambiguous. In the following two films, we see Yoda do the same thing, and eventually Vader but without disappearing (I don't care what later material says, he clearly didn't disappear on screen and the notion of Luke burning empty armor on a funeral pyre doesn't make any sense). The question, even in the original trilogy, was what happened to the ghosts of the Jedi of the past? Did they disappear too? Or did we only see these three ghosts because they were significant to Luke? It wasn't explained and I guess it didn't really need to be. It could be sold as these three came back because they wanted to commune with Luke. There were really only two problems left then: Why Vader was confused at Obi-Wan's disappearance if it was just something that Jedi did and something that he himself did later, and what about the Emperor? The concept of the Sith was not established in the movies. Was he considered something apart from what the Jedi were? Did Vader only get to be a ghost because he was once a Jedi? Are there no evil ghosts?

~snip~

The ability to become a Force Ghost is something that was lost over many many generations.
Qui-Gon Jinn was the first one to rediscover the Ability.
He was trying to teach Obi-Wan all along this ability, he kept telling him to attune himself to the Living Force...
Not all Jedi can do it as it is supposedly very hard to do.
Qui-Gon was training Yoda and Obi-Wan how to do it for years between Episodes III and IV.
This of course doesn't account for Anakin...
Though probably through sheer will Yoda and Obi-Wan were able to bring Anakin back as a Force Ghost?

The Force Ghost is an aspect of being a "Pure" Jedi.
The Sith and Dark Jedi are unable to attain Force Ghost status.

[Tok]

A 'pure' Jedi that murdered defenseless children.

[Gold Ranger]

Lets see what we can do about getting a list of things that were said that were going to get explained in Episodes II and III.

Episode II explanations that were dropped:
- Padme' being Force Sensitive

Episode III explanations that were dropped:
- Force Ghosts
- Padme' being Force Sensitive (was moved to III because they didn't do it in II)
- Syfo Dyas

[Geoff D]

Where was it ever said (either inside or outside of the movies) that Padme was force sensitive? That's a new one to me.

[blonde_devil]

Originally Posted by KaineKinetic

Lets see what we can do about getting a list of things that were said that were going to get explained in Episodes II and III.

Episode II explanations that were dropped:
- Padme' being Force Sensitive

Episode III explanations that were dropped:
- Force Ghosts
- Padme' being Force Sensitive (was moved to III because they didn't do it in II)
- Syfo Dyas

midiclorians(or however you spell it). "It will be explained, it will all make sense" then nothing. I don't think they ever get mentioned again. and worse, they are in the "first" film yet you never hear about them again and the later movies seem not to care about them! You can't help but think about them now.

Personally, I think Anakin shouldn't have even been in the first film. It should have been Qui-Gon and Kenobi doing the Jedi thing, going on some mission and starting to discover that the Sith have returned. The second film could have then been Phantom Menace and Clones as one film which would have cut out the crap from both - first hour or so being then finding Anakin and Maul, ending with the fight and Qui-Gon dying/Kenobi starting to train Anakin, then jump 10 years into the Clones story. Even if Lucas wants to maintain that it is all about Vader, he doesn't need to appear in the first film. Show that the future Emperor was a patient man, waiting and setting things up until the last pience(Anakin) was discovered and then he took over. Still all about Vader.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Tok

A 'pure' Jedi that murdered defenseless children.

Perhaps Anakin shouldn't have gone to Jedi heaven, but killing Palpatine and sacrificing himself to save Luke was some small measure of redemption.

[blonde_devil]

Originally Posted by Tok

A 'pure' Jedi that murdered defenseless children.

They had little Yoda sized lightsabers. But maybe they are like safety sizzors and can't really cut anything.

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Where was it ever said (either inside or outside of the movies) that Padme was force sensitive? That's a new one to me.

It was just after Episode I came out.
They said they would hint at it in II and talk more about it in III but neither happened.
They said it would help with showing why Anakin was and Padme' were drawn together and explain more why Luke and Leia are strong in the Force...
As the movies are now, it's really not needed...

[manunited1]

Originally Posted by KaineKinetic

It was just after Episode I came out.
They said they would hint at it in II and talk more about it in III but neither happened.
They said it would help with showing why Anakin was and Padme' were drawn together and explain more why Luke and Leia are strong in the Force...
As the movies are now, it's really not needed...

Luke and Leia were strong with the force because Their father was a Jedi knight. IF Padme was supposed to be with the force as well it would probably have something to do with Anakin loving her/ having sex with her and passing something on. But I think that whole idea never really was intended to happen. Maybe just a lame thought like Boba being a woman at one point.

[Tok]

Sorry as father he killed children. No level of forgiveness will ever be granted.

I know they were trying to make the transitition to Darth dramatic but that was too much to ever be forgiven for. Darth/Anakin should rot in hell for that.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by RayCRP

But at the very least they should have had (or still should have) Liam Neeson and Frank Oz record the dialogue, so that the scene could be added at some point in the future. Of the many possible changes that can and may be made to the series in the future, this is one that needs to be made.

No. I think we've all learned by now that if you change existing movies, the fan base rebels. I also think that there are far more plot holes in the PT than this and that those films cannot be fixed by adding back a few scenes or fixing dialogue here and there. The plot holes that you and others have pointed out serve to demonstrate just how incompetently these films were made. And one of the reasons is because the actual screenplays were largely not written until the productions were well underway.

In one of the documentaries, Lucas says something to the effect of "geez, I'd better start writing this thing." What that shows me is that he paid far more attention to (virtual) set design, costumes, props, character makeup, etc., than he did to the script and even during shooting, to the actors. This is all pretty obvious.

As for the plot holes, I can't tell whether this was incompetence because the screenplays were written quickly or whether Lucas thought that the audience wouldn't notice the gaps and inconsistencies.

If Disney's handling of the Star Wars franchise is successful, I would expect that the original story will get rebooted sometime around 2030 (although even then there will be danger in remaking the OT because they will still be considered classics that shouldn't be touched, like "Lawrence of Arabia", "The Wizard of Oz," or "Casablanca"). But if they do eventually make reboots, they can fix the flaws then.

And I say all that even though I personally feel that the failure of the Jedi (the missing dialogue you pointed out) is one of the most important serious points of the PT, even if any seriousness in these movies was not really intended. I've always wondered whether Lucas intended it to be this way or whether he didn't realize what he was doing. From my perspective, the Jedi, who are supposed to be heroes, failed at absolutely everything they ever tried up until the point where Luke turns Vader (and maybe that wasn't successful either, since we don't know how long peace lasted in the galaxy after that).

So what was George trying to tell us, if anything? If you take him at his word as presented in the films, it seems to me it's a major criticism of organized religion, even religions that are supposedly on the "right" side of morality. If the Jedi had not taken Anakin away from his mother at such a young age and did not have the regimented opposition to Jedi having relationships, would Anakin still have become Vader? The question is whether Anakin's paranoia and anger was caused more by conditions mandated by his Jedi training or whether it was inherent to his being, perhaps because of an overload of midi-chlorians as well as the fact that he was a slave as a kid (although he seemed to be a pretty happy kid). However, in the end, I don't give George that much credit - I think the plot, especially in the PT, evolved without a lot of thought.

There's another issue even in the OT, but it's also an issue in many movies: we take it for granted that the Empire (and the Sith Lords behind it) want to rule the galaxy, but why do they want to rule the galaxy? What do they get out of it? And if the rebels are a "small band", why does the Empire care so much about them?

Furthermore, even though Vader (in the OT) may be the most recognized movie villain of all time and has certainly become part of our permanent culture, we never really are given any understanding of what motivates him. The PT tells us why he hates the Jedi, but by the time of the OT, the Jedi are all but gone. So what does the adult Vader want out of life? As far as I'm concerned, we are never given a clue and IMO, as wonderful as the OT was, Vader was never fully realized as a complete character.

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

No. I think we've all learned by now that if you change existing movies, the fan base rebels. I also think that there are far more plot holes in the PT than this and that those films cannot be fixed by adding back a few scenes or fixing dialogue here and there. The plot holes that you and others have pointed out serve to demonstrate just how incompetently these films were made. And one of the reasons is because the actual screenplays were largely not written until the productions were well underway.

In one of the documentaries, Lucas says something to the effect of "geez, I'd better start writing this thing." What that shows me is that he paid far more attention to (virtual) set design, costumes, props, character makeup, etc., than he did to the script and even during shooting, to the actors. This is all pretty obvious.

As for the plot holes, I can't tell whether this was incompetence because the screenplays were written quickly or whether Lucas thought that the audience wouldn't notice the gaps and inconsistencies.

If Disney's handling of the Star Wars franchise is successful, I would expect that the original story will get rebooted sometime around 2030 (although even then there will be danger in remaking the OT because they will still be considered classics that shouldn't be touched, like "Lawrence of Arabia", "The Wizard of Oz," or "Casablanca"). But if they do eventually make reboots, they can fix the flaws then.

And I say all that even though I personally feel that the failure of the Jedi (the missing dialogue you pointed out) is one of the most important serious points of the PT, even if any seriousness in these movies was not really intended. I've always wondered whether Lucas intended it to be this way or whether he didn't realize what he was doing. From my perspective, the Jedi, who are supposed to be heroes, failed at absolutely everything they ever tried up until the point where Luke turns Vader (and maybe that wasn't successful either, since we don't know how long peace lasted in the galaxy after that).

So what was George trying to tell us, if anything? If you take him at his word as presented in the films, it seems to me it's a major criticism of organized religion, even religions that are supposedly on the "right" side of morality. If the Jedi had not taken Anakin away from his mother at such a young age and did not have the regimented opposition to Jedi having relationships, would Anakin still have become Vader? The question is whether Anakin's paranoia and anger was caused more by conditions mandated by his Jedi training or whether it was inherent to his being, perhaps because of an overload of midi-chlorians as well as the fact that he was a slave as a kid (although he seemed to be a pretty happy kid). However, in the end, I don't give George that much credit - I think the plot, especially in the PT, evolved without a lot of thought.

There's another issue even in the OT, but it's also an issue in many movies: we take it for granted that the Empire (and the Sith Lords behind it) want to rule the galaxy, but why do they want to rule the galaxy? What do they get out of it? And if the rebels are a "small band", why does the Empire care so much about them?

Furthermore, even though Vader (in the OT) may be the most recognized movie villain of all time and has certainly become part of our permanent culture, we never really are given any understanding of what motivates him. The PT tells us why he hates the Jedi, but by the time of the OT, the Jedi are all but gone. So what does the adult Vader want out of life? As far as I'm concerned, we are never given a clue and IMO, as wonderful as the OT was, Vader was never fully realized as a complete character.

This is why I prefer Episodes I, II and III over Episodes IV, V and VI.
The Originals have NO plot...
There's no plot or motivation other then, "Lets overthrow a Legitimate Government/Lets destroy the Rebellion."
Only once Vader reveals himself as Anakin, does a Plot start to happen, and it's only in VI that it really comes to form. Backstory for "everything" is finally given. And then, only Vader, The Emperor and Luke really have any Motivation to really do anything.

[MifuneFan]

Originally Posted by KaineKinetic

This is why I prefer Episodes I, II and III over Episodes IV, V and VI.
The Originals have NO plot...
There's no plot or motivation other then, "Lets overthrow a Legitimate Government/Lets destroy the Rebellion."
Only once Vader reveals himself as Anakin, does a Plot start to happen, and it's only in VI that it really comes to form. Backstory for "everything" is finally given. And then, only Vader, The Emperor and Luke really have any Motivation to really do anything.