Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[MercsOwnz]

You know, I have never seen a Star Wars movie. Not even a clip of a scene. I did that thinking I would never see them, but I hear they are quite enjoyable. So I will buy this set next year.

[Bluyoda]

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

If you can't (or don't want to) see it, then you're right, we'll disagree forever. But c'mon, the dialog in the OT (and I love the OT) is pretty much one (three actually) long strings of one-liners after another. While I can't find any real fault with Empire, Mark Hamill's acting in ANH was laughable while Harrison Ford & Carrie Fisher's performances in RotJ were both well below phoned in. As for the stories themselves, the PT is much more complex. When you look back at the OT, a lot of it is in reality, background information created outside the confines of the films that fans just associate with the lore of Star Wars. Believe me, I am not putting down the OT in any way, I'm simply saying that when compared to the PT, it is not superior. People just have a nostalgic thing for the OT that transcends the reality of what the films actually were.

While I'm not a big fan of CGI, I have to admit that the PT simply looks richer. I believe this is a real, populated galaxy somewhere. Where in the OT, it feels like a bunch of isolated sets with no real life going on outside of the events of the films. The OT almost looks/feels like someone filmed plays being performed, rather than grand scale motion pictures. This is one reason I don't mind a lot of the changes/additions made to new versions. Cloud City now looks somewhat like a city, Mos Eisley looks like a spaceport, etc.

I too could go on, but I really don't want to look like I'm putting down the OT, because I am not biased toward one trilogy over the other. I judge each film on it's own. I simply do not see the issues in the PT without seeing them in the OT as well. Sure each trilogy has it's own, seperate issues, but they share a lot as well. I could go on about the PT just as easily, but that's not the issue.

I am with you on this.

Originally Posted by motorheadache95

I get your argument, and it is more of a pro-PT argument than an anti-OT argument. But this is a case where we're watching the same movies and yet not watching the same movies. You think the prequels look "richer," I think they look artificial, phony, and sterile. I agree that the plotline is more complex, but I don't think it was well thought out at all. Again, I don't really want to go into it, but watch the Red Letter Media reviews-- you may not agree with what he's saying, but you'll at least understand how us prequel-haters see these movies (plus they're funny as hell-- even if I loved the Prequels I would still love those review videos).

Now, I don't think ALL the acting in the PT is bad. Ewan McGregor was absolutely phenomenal as the young Obi-Wan, and Ian McDiarmid (spelling?) is always great. But they had a lousy script to work with. And when two of your leading characters turn in awful performances (Natalie Portman and both Anakins) it really brings the movies down. I blame George Lucas more than the actors-- he actually makes them act badly (he calls it an acting style) and doesn't allow them any breathing room with his script.

I don't know why you would think Hamill's acting is just as bad-- I don't see that at all. The only thing I'll concede is that scene between Han and Leia on Endor was pretty cardboard-- again, I blame that on Lucas' script. But thats an exception-- the same film had the phenomenally dramatic confrontation between Luke and Vader at the end, which was way more dramatically powerful than anything in the PT (IMO). Though it's funny that the one movie Lucas didn't direct himself was by far the best story, script and acting of all the movies.

The bottom line for me is that the OT tells an exciting story with characters that I care about. The PT does not. It was never about nostalgia, or pre-conceived expectations. I think that excuse is BS. I simply think they are poor films.

To me ROTS is the most emotional SW film by far! It's the culmination of the entire Saga. It kills me every time I watch it. It's heartbreaking!
I also LOVE Hayden's acting in ROTS!
One of the best performances ever!!!!!

Originally Posted by MercsOwnz

You know, I have never seen a Star Wars movie. Not even a clip of a scene. I did that thinking I would never see them, but I hear they are quite enjoyable. So I will buy this set next year.

Someone is in need of attention.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Bluyoda

I also LOVE Hayden's acting in ROTS!
One of the best performances ever!!!!!

You must have pretty low standards on what constitutes a good performance.

[oaguirre]

Hayden did a very solid performance in ROTS. Actually that movie is my favorite from the last trilogy.

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by oaguirre

Hayden did a very solid performance in ROTS. Actually that movie is my favorite from the last trilogy.

Yeah, it wasn't bad at all. It wasn't a great performance, but it wasn't bad either. In all honesty, it compared with Mark Hamill's in Return of the Jedi. If you look back, Mark's performances got better with each OT film. He had three shots at the role, where Hayden was only in two of the films. They actually came off quite similar.

Compare any emotional scenes with Harrison & Carrie against Hayden & Natalie (sepecially the one where Padme is left crying in her apartment overlooking the Jedi Temple) and I think it's pretty obvious which has the most emotional impact. Natalie did a terrific job in that scene. Much better than anything Carrie Fisher had done in the OT.

[drobswim13]

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

Yeah, it wasn't bad at all. It wasn't a great performance, but it wasn't bad either. In all honesty, it compared with Mark Hamill's in Return of the Jedi. If you look back, Mark's performances got better with each OT film. He had three shots at the role, where Hayden was only in two of the films. They actually came off quite similar.

Compare any emotional scenes with Harrison & Carrie against Hayden & Natalie (sepecially the one where Padme is left crying in her apartment overlooking the Jedi Temple) and I think it's pretty obvious which has the most emotional impact. Natalie did a terrific job in that scene. Much better than anything Carrie Fisher had done in the OT.

I didn't realize a completely emotion-less performance is considered "not bad". I really think that you guys are not giving any credit to Hamill. His performance was not worthy of an Oscar nom, but at least I could believe that he was sad when he was, happy when he was, and longing for something more when he was. All Hayden did was read his lines.

I will give you, however, that the emotional scenes between Harrison and Carrie aren't all that good. That is mostly because of Carrie, not Ford. But I will not say that I was emotionally impacted on anything I saw from Hayden and Natalie. Natalie Portman is a great actress, but the scenes between the two of them are so stiff. It is actually painful to watch because the dialogue isn't too bad, but the delivery is just off.

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by motorheadache95

Right, I was talking about Empire in that sentence. And you're right about Marquand, but Lucas basically ghost-directed that film himself. He actually hired Marquand because he wanted a director that would basically do exactly what he wanted him to do, unlike Kershner. Lucas also ended up doing a lot of the directing work himself anyway.

Eh? Apparently you're unaware of Lucas' problems with the DGA and him having to pay Kershner's fines (and his subsequent leaving the guild).

Lucas is usually the first to say that he hates directing people and doing dialogue and writing and such. He's a master at the visual and SFX medium, though, but he's had no choice from RotJ on, since he won't have anything to do with American Directors or Writers Guilds and has to rely on relatively inexperienced foreign directors or just do it himself:

Worth another time:

"The Hollywood unions have been taken over by the same lawyers and accountants who took over the studios," Lucas says angrily. "When the Writers Guild was on strike, I couldn't cross the picket line in my function as a director in order to take care of American Graffiti when the studio was chopping it up. I quit the Director's Guild because the union lawyers were locked in a traditional combat with the studio lawyers. The union doesn't care about it's members. It cares about making fancy rules that sound good on paper and are totaly impractical. They said Lucasfilm was a personal credit, not a corporate credit. My name is not George Lucasfilm any more than William Fox's name was Twentieth Century-Fox. On that technicality, they sued me for $250,000. You can pollute half the Great Lakes and not get fined that much. When the DGA threatened to fine Kershner $25,000, we paid his fine. I consider it extortion. The day after I settled with the Director's Guild, the Writers Guild called up. At least their fine didn't go all into the business agents' pockets. Two-thirds went to writers."

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by drobswim13

I didn't realize a completely emotion-less performance is considered "not bad". I really think that you guys are not giving any credit to Hamill. His performance was not worthy of an Oscar nom, but at least I could believe that he was sad when he was, happy when he was, and longing for something more when he was. All Hayden did was read his lines.

I will give you, however, that the emotional scenes between Harrison and Carrie aren't all that good. That is mostly because of Carrie, not Ford. But I will not say that I was emotionally impacted on anything I saw from Hayden and Natalie. Natalie Portman is a great actress, but the scenes between the two of them are so stiff. It is actually painful to watch because the dialogue isn't too bad, but the delivery is just off.

Like I said, Mark Hamill's performances got better. In ANH, his acting was cheese with ham, but by Jedi, he was very good. If you reread one of my earlier posts, I do say the sequence between Luke, Vader & Palpatine in RotJ is amongst, if not the best sequence in the entire saga. I stick to that. I also didn't say Hayden was great. I said he wasn't bad. He too got better as the films progressed (though not to the same level as Mark Hamill).

For me, the absolute bottom line is that there was bad acting in BOTH trilogies. There was cheesey dialog in both trilogies. There was needless slapstick in both trilogies. There were goofy characters in both trilogies. The problem I have is that a lot of people want to make it seem as though these things are exclusive to the PT. They are not.

[STARKILLER--1138]

Originally Posted by motorheadache95

Right, I was talking about Empire in that sentence. And you're right about Marquand, but Lucas basically ghost-directed that film himself. He actually hired Marquand because he wanted a director that would basically do exactly what he wanted him to do, unlike Kershner. Lucas also ended up doing a lot of the directing work himself anyway. At that point, producer Gary Kurtz was also out, who was the guy who challenged Lucas' decisions the most when making the first two films.

No offense, but are you telling me that Lucas hired a man (Kersh) to do a job, and the man wouldn't do what "the boss" wanted him to do, but "the boss" kept him on anyway? No doubt when you hire someone to do a job, they do the job the way you want it done. Pure conjecture unless you can provide a source.

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by STARKILLER--1138

No offense, but are you telling me that Lucas hired a man (Kersh) to do a job, and the man wouldn't do what "the boss" wanted him to do, but "the boss" kept him on anyway? No doubt when you hire someone to do a job, they do the job the way you want it done. Pure conjecture unless you can provide a source.

Even funnier is that the job Kersh did, turned out to be the best of the six. I wonder if G.L. looks back now and can see (admit) it?

[Uxi]

It wouldn't matter unless the Guild is prepared to prostrate itself before Lucas and kiss his ass to say nothing of returning all the fine money he paid.

[OG Pooh]

If G.L. wants nothing to do with American directors, why does he continue to work with S.S.?

[STARKILLER--1138]

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

Even funnier is that the job Kersh did, turned out to be the best of the six. I wonder if G.L. looks back now and can see (admit) it?

Funniest is how people claim "Empire" is the best, but BO numbers show it didin't do as well as the other SW films. Even with the SE release ESB did about half of what ANH did, IIRC. You figure there would have been a bigger turnout for "the best SW film."

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

If G.L. wants nothing to do with American directors, why does he continue to work with S.S.?

They're friends, but how many times has Spielberg directed a Lucasfilm production since TESB? Indiana Jones was always as much SS as it is GL.

Even so, I'm sure GL would pick quite a few American directors... if it wasn't for the consequences they would face with the Guild. They defy the Guild and leave... what are they going to work on in the future? Would Lucas continue to employ them? His production volume isn't high enough to seriously consider that...

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by STARKILLER--1138

Funniest is how people claim "Empire" is the best, but BO numbers show it didin't do as well as the other SW films. Even with the SE release ESB did about half of what ANH did, IIRC. You figure there would have been a bigger turnout for "the best SW film."

But if you remember, when the films were rereleased (in '96 or '97), Empire did so well that it delayed the rerelease of Jedi because it was held over an additional week.

Besides, BO numbers don't mean anything. If they did, Avatar is the greatest motion picture ever filmed.

[drobswim13]

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

But if you remember, when the films were rereleased (in '96 or '97), Empire did so well that it delayed the rerelease of Jedi because it was held over an additional week.

Besides, BO numbers don't mean anything. If they did, Avatar is the greatest motion picture ever filmed.

In complete agreement here

[STARKILLER--1138]

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

But if you remember, when the films were rereleased (in '96 or '97), Empire did so well that it delayed the rerelease of Jedi because it was held over an additional week.

Besides, BO numbers don't mean anything. If they did, Avatar is the greatest motion picture ever filmed.

Heh, well, we're not talking about Avatar. We're talking about the support of ESB if it really was the best of the saga. If it really were, more people would have turned out for it...plain and simple. And, yes, BO numbers do mean something. Like brother Nino said, "Money talks! Bullshit runs the marathon!"

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by STARKILLER--1138

Heh, well, we're not talking about Avatar. We're talking about the support of ESB if it really was the best of the saga. If it really were, more people would have turned out for it...plain and simple. And, yes, BO numbers do mean something. Like brother Nino said, "Money talks! Bullshit runs the marathon!"

You brought up BO numbers, not me. Like it or not, that allows Avatar (and any other movie that has made even $1) into the conversation. Besides, how much money something has made seems to be the basis of your position.

What I'm saying is that BO numbers do not make a film a great film. There have been a lot of films that were absolute trash that did well. A lot of how well a picture does is in direct correlation to what it's up against. Put a fair movie out at a time when everything else is pure garbage, and guess what? A fair film ends up with three weeks at number one, while a truly great film may do nothing because it's up against an Avatar. Again, when the films were rereleased, the public DID turn out for Empire. So much so that it was the only one of the three that was held over an additional week. To be fair, during the original releases, A New Hope was a complete, world-wide phenomenon. None of the sequels (or many films at all) have come close to A New Hope, Actually only one (E.T.) has come anywhere near close, and it's over $200,000,000 behind. In fact, adjusted for inflation, NO film has beaten ANH since it was released. To take it even a step further, the only films that are ahead of Empire (since ANH's release in 1977) are E.T., Titanic and (just barely) Avatar. That's right, ESB is the 5th highest grossing film since 1977 (adjusted for inflation), bar none. It's ahead of Return of the Jedi, Phantom Menace, Jurassic Park, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Forrest Gump, Close Encounters, The Dark Knight... Hell, it's 18 spots above Return of the King. So don't tell me there was no support for Empire. ANH has simply been an untouchable juggernaut.

Again, BO numbers mean nothing. Take Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest, which is universally considered the worst of the three films. It made the most money at the BO, ranking over 20 spots ahead of Black Pearl and over 40 positions above At World's End. I guess that means Dead Man's Chest is the best Pirates of the Caribbean movie, while the other two are bullshit running a marathon, huh?

Just curious, what do you think is the best Star Wars film?

[s2mikey]

Originally Posted by STARKILLER--1138

Heh, well, we're not talking about Avatar. We're talking about the support of ESB if it really was the best of the saga. If it really were, more people would have turned out for it...plain and simple. And, yes, BO numbers do mean something. Like brother Nino said, "Money talks! Bullshit runs the marathon!"

Well, money does talk per say but it doesnt always equate to film quality. Transformers 2 made a billion bucks but I think we can agree on how suspect that film is! I even liked the first one.

To me, films that endure for generation after generation and reach new audiences along with catering to the original fans are what really "talk".

[drobswim13]

Originally Posted by STARKILLER--1138

Heh, well, we're not talking about Avatar. We're talking about the support of ESB if it really was the best of the saga. If it really were, more people would have turned out for it...plain and simple. And, yes, BO numbers do mean something. Like brother Nino said, "Money talks! Bullshit runs the marathon!"

Money may talk, but it shows no indication on if it was a great film. ESB is not my favorite, ROTJ is, but I think ESB is, by far, the best written.