Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by Uxi

uh? Lando was attempting to redeem himself from scumery before TESB was even over. Did you miss Han's mocking him for becoming respectable? His character in RotJ is perfectly consistent with the end of RotJ. In fact, more likely that he remains more than a little rogue-ish in wanting to give a little payback to the Empire by blowing up a Death Star (with Vader and/or the Emperor himself on it).

He was the straight man to the co-pilots comedy relief. The Han to Nunb's Chewie, if you will...

I know all this, I just don't agree with it. I think Han & Lando should have both remained questionable, at best. The Lando/Nunb comedy was just a little too much & too childish even for George.

Not to change the subject (though maybe we should), I thought you'd all find this interesting...

http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/12/09...ex.html?hpt=C1

[herzog4life]

OFF TOPIC, but still Star Wars related: Anyone here been buying the Star Wars prints from Mondo that they have been releasing. Because they are AWESOME.

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by Dotpattern

I
She was bored by ANH. In her words, "It went from this incredibly personal duel between [Anakin and Obi-Wan] and an emotional 'I HATE YOU!!' to "You should not have come back."

Did you remind her that it was 20 years later? Hard to keep up any extreme emotional reaction that long, no?

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by Uxi

Did you remind her that it was 20 years later? Hard to keep up any extreme emotional reaction that long, no?

They were brothers, mentor and student, comrades in arms, however if you listen to Obi-Wan talk to Luke about Vader and look at his facial expressions while he's talking, you can see what the two once meant to each other.

[kenkraly2004]

Here's some things I hope and many fans hope are fixed for the blu-ray release 1. the lightsaber effects on the 2004 dvds of ep 4-6 they looked awfull vader's a pink lightsaber , luke's a green saber in ep 4 ? Come on. 2. I hope some of the Episode 4 A New Hope sound issues are addressed for the blu-ray release that was a problem on the dvd release like the swaped music score in the battle of yavin. 3. I also hope the color timeming issues that where on the 2004 dvds of sw episodes 4-6 are addreesed as well.

[Dotpattern]

Originally Posted by Uxi

Did you remind her that it was 20 years later? Hard to keep up any extreme emotional reaction that long, no?

She's not dumb, she didn't need me to explain it. She's not talking about chronology and the psychology of how one reacts to another 20 years later. She's talking tone from one movie to the next. In the sense that the emotional arc isn't carried over from ROTS to ANH, she has a point.

[drobswim13]

Originally Posted by Dotpattern

I introduced Star Wars to my girlfriend beginning with Phantom Menace and then went in Episode order. I have to admit, I found her reaction to the movies completely fascinating. She had no baggage, no nostalgia - she was just watching the movies for the first time. Now remember, this is from the point of view of someone who knew very little about Star Wars other than "Luke, I am your father." So she already knew that "twist" and never saw the OT.

In short, she thought TPM was okay, nothing Earth shattering, and she was annoyed by Jar-Jar (apparently this is consistent with non-fans). She did not pick up on any of the foreshadowing of Palpatine.

She liked AOTC and was indeed thrown off by Anakin's behavior especially when he killed the Sand People.

She really liked ROTS. Anakin becoming Darth Vader, actually getting put into the suit, blew her mind! She simply did not know this is where the story was going. She wanted to immediately watch ANH!

She was bored by ANH. In her words, "It went from this incredibly personal duel between [Anakin and Obi-Wan] and an emotional 'I HATE YOU!!' to "You should not have come back." She thought their re-duel was terribly weak. Something that WAS interesting though was her reaction to Obi-Wan telling Luke what happened to his father - "Why is he lying to him??"

She thought ESB was a HUGE improvement over ANH. I got a good laugh at her reaction to Leia kissing Luke. "Woah...wait...aren't they brother and sister??" She enjoyed seeing Yoda return. She wasn't surprised by Vader's revelation to Luke (obviously). She did think that Luke's mechanical arm was foreshadowing that Palpatine would want to turn Luke to the Dark Side.

Okay...ROTJ...here's where her reactions got interesting...overall she liked it. She thought the rescue of Han dragged on especially R2 and C3PO being shown around the palace and the droid torture scene. She couldn't have cared less about how Boba Fett's demise because in her view, he was never an "important character." In her view, Fett never even captured Han. "He followed Han to Cloud City, Vader captured him and then turned him over to Fett. When I told her that Fett is considered the "greatest bounty hunter in the Star Wars universe" she replied, "Why? He never did anything." And realistically, based solely on the movies, she's right. She was confused by Obi-Wan's "from a certain point of view" speech and didn't understand why he didn't just tell Luke the truth up front. I had to remind her they were made out of order and that Lucas didn't know originally that he would have a chance to make sequels. She thought Yoda dying was weak, but sad. She loved seeing the Emperor return. She thought Carrie Fisher looked like she didn't want to be in the movie.

Now...and I found this to be very interesting...at the end, when Luke looks off and sees Obi-Wan, Yoda and then Anakin...are you sitting?...she LOVED seeing Anakin brought back in the form of Hayden Christiansen! I showed her the original version and she said she didn't like it. Her reason was that she had come to know Christiansen as Anakin, and felt that he had truly redeemed himself. She said she had no connection whatsoever to the older actor since she had never seen him before and therefore wouldn't have had the same sense of redemption. She was also disappointed that when Luke took Vader's mask off that it wasn't Christiansen made to look older.

Again, remember this is coming from someone without pre-conceived ideas or history of seeing the movies. Overall, her favorite was ROTS.

i did the exact opposite with my girlfriend, and her reaction was the exact opposite of yours. I will elaborate further when I have the time, but she absolutely hated the ROTJ change at the end with Hayden, and also loved the lightsaber duels in the OT and not the PT, b/c she says completely "choreographed" looking duels lack the emotion she saw in the OT

[s2mikey]

Originally Posted by Dotpattern

I introduced Star Wars to my girlfriend beginning with Phantom Menace and then went in Episode order. I have to admit, I found her reaction to the movies completely fascinating. She had no baggage, no nostalgia - she was just watching the movies for the first time. Now remember, this is from the point of view of someone who knew very little about Star Wars other than "Luke, I am your father." So she already knew that "twist" and never saw the OT.

In short, she thought TPM was okay, nothing Earth shattering, and she was annoyed by Jar-Jar (apparently this is consistent with non-fans). She did not pick up on any of the foreshadowing of Palpatine.

She liked AOTC and was indeed thrown off by Anakin's behavior especially when he killed the Sand People.

She really liked ROTS. Anakin becoming Darth Vader, actually getting put into the suit, blew her mind! She simply did not know this is where the story was going. She wanted to immediately watch ANH!

She was bored by ANH. In her words, "It went from this incredibly personal duel between [Anakin and Obi-Wan] and an emotional 'I HATE YOU!!' to "You should not have come back." She thought their re-duel was terribly weak. Something that WAS interesting though was her reaction to Obi-Wan telling Luke what happened to his father - "Why is he lying to him??"

She thought ESB was a HUGE improvement over ANH. I got a good laugh at her reaction to Leia kissing Luke. "Woah...wait...aren't they brother and sister??" She enjoyed seeing Yoda return. She wasn't surprised by Vader's revelation to Luke (obviously). She did think that Luke's mechanical arm was foreshadowing that Palpatine would want to turn Luke to the Dark Side.

Okay...ROTJ...here's where her reactions got interesting...overall she liked it. She thought the rescue of Han dragged on especially R2 and C3PO being shown around the palace and the droid torture scene. She couldn't have cared less about how Boba Fett's demise because in her view, he was never an "important character." In her view, Fett never even captured Han. "He followed Han to Cloud City, Vader captured him and then turned him over to Fett. When I told her that Fett is considered the "greatest bounty hunter in the Star Wars universe" she replied, "Why? He never did anything." And realistically, based solely on the movies, she's right. She was confused by Obi-Wan's "from a certain point of view" speech and didn't understand why he didn't just tell Luke the truth up front. I had to remind her they were made out of order and that Lucas didn't know originally that he would have a chance to make sequels. She thought Yoda dying was weak, but sad. She loved seeing the Emperor return. She thought Carrie Fisher looked like she didn't want to be in the movie.

Now...and I found this to be very interesting...at the end, when Luke looks off and sees Obi-Wan, Yoda and then Anakin...are you sitting?...she LOVED seeing Anakin brought back in the form of Hayden Christiansen! I showed her the original version and she said she didn't like it. Her reason was that she had come to know Christiansen as Anakin, and felt that he had truly redeemed himself. She said she had no connection whatsoever to the older actor since she had never seen him before and therefore wouldn't have had the same sense of redemption. She was also disappointed that when Luke took Vader's mask off that it wasn't Christiansen made to look older.

Again, remember this is coming from someone without pre-conceived ideas or history of seeing the movies. Overall, her favorite was ROTS.

Interesting. I would suggest to anyone though that you should always watch them in the order they were released, NOT chronologically. This is key for several reasons. The main one being that if they dont know about Vader/Skywalker then the prequels would kill that moment in ESB and everything else regarding that story line. Plus, the prequels work better when viewed afterwards, IMO. Some of your GF's other comments too would be better served by watching them in the order they were released.

Just my opinion, but this is how Ive watched them(4-5-6 / 1-2-3) with my own kids and some of the neighborhood kids and ending with Anakin turning to Vader(EP 3) is a great way to finish it!

BTW - I agree fully with your girlfriend that having Christensen shown at the end of ROTJ as the Ghost is better than the other guy. her and I are in the minority but thats the way I see it too!

[drobswim13]

Originally Posted by s2mikey

Interesting. I would suggest to anyone though that you should always watch them in the order they were released, NOT chronologically. This is key for several reasons. The main one being that if they dont know about Vader/Skywalker then the prequels would kill that moment in ESB and everything else regarding that story line. Plus, the prequels work better when viewed afterwards, IMO. Some of your GF's other comments too would be better served by watching them in the order they were released.

Just my opinion, but this is how Ive watched them(4-5-6 / 1-2-3) with my own kids and some of the neighborhood kids and ending with Anakin turning to Vader(EP 3) is a great way to finish it!

BTW - I agree fully with your girlfriend that having Christensen shown at the end of ROTJ as the Ghost is better than the other guy. her and I are in the minority but thats the way I see it too!

I agree with everything you said except for the end, but we will always disagree on that

[octagon]

I can see watching them in episode order after having seen them all but for a first viewing I would also suggest release date order.

In addition to the points already raised, whatever else one thinks of the prequels Ian McDiarmid is definitely one of the high points and it seems watching him without the full backstory (forestory?) would take a lot of the impact from his performances.

[Astrakan]

Originally Posted by s2mikey

I would suggest to anyone though that you should always watch them in the order they were released, NOT chronologically.

I disagree. Although I don't think they should be done in episode order either.

This is how I'd introduce a newcomer:

A New Hope
The Empire Strikes Back
Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones
Return of the Sith
Return of the Jedi

So: 4 - 5 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 6

Basically, start off the series the way it was originally started off. But then after the Luke/Darth bombshell, do what basically amounts to a flashback to show how Darth became the person he is, and then jump forward again with Return of the Jedi at the end, in order to see how the whole thing ends up, as well as get an happy ending instead of a downer like Return of the Sith.

Originally Posted by s2mikey

This is key for several reasons. The main one being that if they dont know about Vader/Skywalker then the prequels would kill that moment in ESB and everything else regarding that story line. Plus, the prequels work better when viewed afterwards, IMO.

I agree with all this, but I think moving RotJ to the end serves the overall story better, in that once you've watched all the other ones you'll likely be very keen to find out how it all ends. Instead of knowing how it all ends for three movies.

[s2mikey]

Originally Posted by Astrakan

I disagree. Although I don't think they should be done in episode order either.

This is how I'd introduce a newcomer:

A New Hope
The Empire Strikes Back
Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones
Return of the Sith
Return of the Jedi

So: 4 - 5 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 6

Basically, start off the series the way it was originally started off. But then after the Luke/Darth bombshell, do what basically amounts to a flashback to show how Darth became the person he is, and then jump forward again with Return of the Jedi at the end, in order to see how the whole thing ends up, as well as get an happy ending instead of a downer like Return of the Sith.

I agree with all this, but I think moving RotJ to the end serves the overall story better, in that once you've watched all the other ones you'll likely be very keen to find out how it all ends. Instead of knowing how it all ends for three movies.

ROTJ at the very end is an interesting way to do it. Hmmm.... cool!

Originally Posted by drobswim13

I agree with everything you said except for the end, but we will always disagree on that

Sure will - but it would be boring if we all agreed on everything, dont you agree?

[Bluyoda]

Originally Posted by Dotpattern

I introduced Star Wars to my girlfriend beginning with Phantom Menace and then went in Episode order. I have to admit, I found her reaction to the movies completely fascinating. She had no baggage, no nostalgia - she was just watching the movies for the first time. Now remember, this is from the point of view of someone who knew very little about Star Wars other than "Luke, I am your father." So she already knew that "twist" and never saw the OT.

In short, she thought TPM was okay, nothing Earth shattering, and she was annoyed by Jar-Jar (apparently this is consistent with non-fans). She did not pick up on any of the foreshadowing of Palpatine.

She liked AOTC and was indeed thrown off by Anakin's behavior especially when he killed the Sand People.

She really liked ROTS. Anakin becoming Darth Vader, actually getting put into the suit, blew her mind! She simply did not know this is where the story was going. She wanted to immediately watch ANH!

She was bored by ANH. In her words, "It went from this incredibly personal duel between [Anakin and Obi-Wan] and an emotional 'I HATE YOU!!' to "You should not have come back." She thought their re-duel was terribly weak. Something that WAS interesting though was her reaction to Obi-Wan telling Luke what happened to his father - "Why is he lying to him??"

She thought ESB was a HUGE improvement over ANH. I got a good laugh at her reaction to Leia kissing Luke. "Woah...wait...aren't they brother and sister??" She enjoyed seeing Yoda return. She wasn't surprised by Vader's revelation to Luke (obviously). She did think that Luke's mechanical arm was foreshadowing that Palpatine would want to turn Luke to the Dark Side.

Okay...ROTJ...here's where her reactions got interesting...overall she liked it. She thought the rescue of Han dragged on especially R2 and C3PO being shown around the palace and the droid torture scene. She couldn't have cared less about how Boba Fett's demise because in her view, he was never an "important character." In her view, Fett never even captured Han. "He followed Han to Cloud City, Vader captured him and then turned him over to Fett. When I told her that Fett is considered the "greatest bounty hunter in the Star Wars universe" she replied, "Why? He never did anything." And realistically, based solely on the movies, she's right. She was confused by Obi-Wan's "from a certain point of view" speech and didn't understand why he didn't just tell Luke the truth up front. I had to remind her they were made out of order and that Lucas didn't know originally that he would have a chance to make sequels. She thought Yoda dying was weak, but sad. She loved seeing the Emperor return. She thought Carrie Fisher looked like she didn't want to be in the movie.

Now...and I found this to be very interesting...at the end, when Luke looks off and sees Obi-Wan, Yoda and then Anakin...are you sitting?...she LOVED seeing Anakin brought back in the form of Hayden Christiansen! I showed her the original version and she said she didn't like it. Her reason was that she had come to know Christiansen as Anakin, and felt that he had truly redeemed himself. She said she had no connection whatsoever to the older actor since she had never seen him before and therefore wouldn't have had the same sense of redemption. She was also disappointed that when Luke took Vader's mask off that it wasn't Christiansen made to look older.

Again, remember this is coming from someone without pre-conceived ideas or history of seeing the movies. Overall, her favorite was ROTS.

Thanks for sharing this. I agree that she is a keeper.
It's interesting to see how SW virgins perceive the Saga.

My favorite is ROTS too, although it is utterly emotional, but the music, the story, the visual, the mood, the action, everything is amazing, save for a couple of VFX shots.

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

I can see all of this. In fact, it is exactly what I was eluding to when I said you could start someone off with Menace. It is also the reason why I don't see all the hate for the PT. They really are good Star Wars films. Again, all things considered, I find ESB & RotS to be the real standouts.

I too never really understood why Boba Fett was considered such a feared bounty hunter either, I just loved the character.

Yep, think so too, but that doesn't really mean that I prefer them over the others, except ROTJ, because they are part of a bigger story.

Originally Posted by supersonic395

@Dotpattern

Pretty interesting account.

If I have kids in the future, I plan to show them the films in the 1-6 order to see what their reactions are.

Also the way Alec Guiness tells Luke in ANH about his father (when he gives him the lightsaber), the faces Alec Guiness pulls is pretty telling that he is troubled to give a proper response. Very good imo.

I definately prefer Hayden Anakin in ROTJ as opposed to Shaw also. (In fact I like all the 2004 changes, except the Greedo scene. I think Lucas will change it back. (Maybe remove the Jaba scene from ANH too). All the other stuff is fine.

Lastly I don't get the complaints Cinematography wise for II. I was flicking through it the other day (for the awesome 5.1 track), and there's some really good shots in there. (Obviously in III it's at it's best. Some superb music in III too).

Can't wait to hear the lossless tracks, and I can't wait to see the packaging and new transfers.

I don't understand all the hate for EP.II either. I love it, and it completely blew me away in the theater, more than ANY other film ever!
Maybe, because I am a hopeless romantic, and not so much an action fanatic, but the action was ueber sweet in it too.

Originally Posted by supersonic395

I think more will probably be done on the PT. (I guess like the 2004 versions, the OT will probably have improved CGI, but in terms of new alterations, I don't think there will be that many, if any. I'd bet the Han/Greedo scene will be restored to the original version and that will probably be the biggest change for the OT. They definately need to fix the Lightsabers though).

In the PT, some CGI should be redone (plenty of stuff in II). Also in III the one scene that always looked "off" was in the early fight scene with Dooku. When Dooku force throws Kenobi into the side of the room and then drops some metal thing on his legs, it always looks really off/bad. They should fix it.

What's so bad in Ep.II?

I agree on the Dooku/Obi Wan scene in Ep.III though, and Obi Wan in his spaceship at 03:44 min. in EP.III looks like a rough Pre-viz version of the character. I think they seriously forgot to do a final render of this shot.

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

Jar Jar IS a major character, what was it, in the span of about 15 minutes he undoes the years of hard work Senator Amidala put in trying to make the galaxy a better place. One could argue that he is one of the most integral characters to the PT, even if he is so hated by many.

Qui Gon is one of the most pivotal characters in the entire Saga too.

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

Not to change the subject (though maybe we should), I thought you'd all find this interesting...



http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/12/09...ex.html?hpt=C1

Beautiful! Thanks for posting.

Originally Posted by s2mikey

Interesting. I would suggest to anyone though that you should always watch them in the order they were released, NOT chronologically. This is key for several reasons. The main one being that if they dont know about Vader/Skywalker then the prequels would kill that moment in ESB and everything else regarding that story line. Plus, the prequels work better when viewed afterwards, IMO. Some of your GF's other comments too would be better served by watching them in the order they were released.

Just my opinion, but this is how Ive watched them(4-5-6 / 1-2-3) with my own kids and some of the neighborhood kids and ending with Anakin turning to Vader(EP 3) is a great way to finish it!

BTW - I agree fully with your girlfriend that having Christensen shown at the end of ROTJ as the Ghost is better than the other guy. her and I are in the minority but thats the way I see it too!

I have really come to think that the Saga is best watched (for newbies anyway) in this order:

IV
V
I
II
III
VI (and maybe a slight reminder of what had happened at the end of V before that)

[dcowboy7]

Yea i have to end with VI so it ends on an up note.

[Gaius Marius]

Originally Posted by Astrakan

I disagree. Although I don't think they should be done in episode order either.

This is how I'd introduce a newcomer:

A New Hope
The Empire Strikes Back
Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones
Return of the Sith
Return of the Jedi

So: 4 - 5 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 6

Basically, start off the series the way it was originally started off. But then after the Luke/Darth bombshell, do what basically amounts to a flashback to show how Darth became the person he is, and then jump forward again with Return of the Jedi at the end, in order to see how the whole thing ends up, as well as get an happy ending instead of a downer like Return of the Sith.

I really like this order! I think I will watch it in that order for the Blu-ray release

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by Gaius Marius

I really like this order! I think I will watch it in that order for the Blu-ray release

That does sound pretty good. I was originally a fan of IV-VI, then I-III (in order of theatrical). I-VI does work, too. But I really want to watch it this way now. Gonna have to try it.

[motorheadache95]

Originally Posted by Dotpattern

She couldn't have cared less about how Boba Fett's demise because in her view, he was never an "important character." In her view, Fett never even captured Han. "He followed Han to Cloud City, Vader captured him and then turned him over to Fett. When I told her that Fett is considered the "greatest bounty hunter in the Star Wars universe" she replied, "Why? He never did anything." And realistically, based solely on the movies, she's right.

.

Actually, if it wasn't for Fett, Vader would have never found Han and Leia on Cloud City. Han had duped the entire fleet, and only Boba Fett was smart enough to figure out what trick Han was pulling. There is actually a moment in Episode II where Obi-Wan pulls the same trick on Jango and Boba, which is where he may have learned about it. I wouldn't say he "didn't do anything."

But still, I get your point. He doesn't do that much-- mostly he just stands there and looks mysterious-- it was the fans who interpreted him as such a great bad ass. The same sort of thing kind of happened with Aurra Sing (the white-skinned chick from The Phantom Menace) who was in the movie for about, oh, one second. But she just looked so damn cool.

Interesting experiment showing a Star Wars virgin the chronological order. Still, I don't understand how anyone could watch Episode II and not be both bored with the movie and repulsed with the Anakin/Padme love story.

[drobswim13]

Originally Posted by motorheadache95

Actually, if it wasn't for Fett, Vader would have never found Han and Leia on Cloud City. Han had duped the entire fleet, and only Boba Fett was smart enough to figure out what trick Han was pulling. There is actually a moment in Episode II where Obi-Wan pulls the same trick on Jango and Boba, which is where he may have learned about it. I wouldn't say he "didn't do anything."

But still, I get your point. He doesn't do that much-- mostly he just stands there and looks mysterious-- it was the fans who interpreted him as such a great bad ass. The same sort of thing kind of happened with Aurra Sing (the white-skinned chick from The Phantom Menace) who was in the movie for about, oh, one second. But she just looked so damn cool.

Interesting experiment showing a Star Wars virgin the chronological order. Still, I don't understand how anyone could watch Episode II and not be both bored with the movie and repulsed with the Anakin/Padme love story.

I loved how Red Letter Media did the "checkmarks and x's" for everthing Anakin did right or wrong with the relationship. I was nearly on the ground b/c I was laughing so hard

[supersonic395]

Originally Posted by Bluyoda

What's so bad in Ep.II?

I agree on the Dooku/Obi Wan scene in Ep.III though, and Obi Wan in his spaceship at 03:44 min. in EP.III looks like a rough Pre-viz version of the character. I think they seriously forgot to do a final render of this shot.

Well, Ep II was the first time they were using the digital camera, so it sort of threw them off when it came to the depth (as the digital camera made it look flatter than normal).

So

-redoing some of the backgrounds firstly (a couple of shots in EpIII too)
-IMO they should redo the cgi for those tall skinny Aliens who made the Clone army (Kimino?)
-The alien Kenobi visits in the cafe should be redone (make the cgi better)
-Yoda, whilst good, should also be redone to match him in EpIII (and EpI since he was done in EpI after EpII).
-Touchup some stuff in the factory sequence to make it gel better

Likewise in EpIII & EpI, try and get all 3 films to the same high quality of EpIII (especially since Avatar's release. And it should be doable too).

Also, when I say redo, I don't mean altering designs, just make the actual cgi better.

[Agent Bond]

What's so bad in Ep.II

The movie was so dry and boring until The Clone Troopers came to the rescue.