Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by iamsometal

All of the criticism Lucas received for the last 17 years was completely self-induced. When you refuse to listen to your fans, and keep doing more of exactly what you're criticized for, how is it you could wonder why your fans keep complaining and slinging shit? Lucas just never learned to sleep in the bed he kept making for himself over and over. He just kept trying to ram that square peg into that round hole. I gotta say, I respect the integrity, but you can't expect people to just submit to your will after disappointing them so consistently. So he cashed out. That's the one decision Lucas has made in the last decade and a half that I can respect.

Perhaps I overstated the fan part, it's not like the hate wagon suddenly jumped out at him. Lucas always said that he'd take the critical mauling for the prequels because they were his films, down to the last frame, i.e. he got to make the Star Wars movies that he'd always wanted so he didn't give a shit about what anyone thought.

But when he couldn't sell Red Tails, when the studios turned their backs on him and most didn't even bother to send their reps to a screening, that's what did for him. He's put so much into the industry and I guess he thought he'd always get something back. When he didn't, it was time to move on. (Yes, Fox picked up Red Tails eventually, but the damage was done.)

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

It's simple as this - fans don't have a say in anything regarding content. If they don't like what's going on with a series or franchise, then they can stop paying to watch the movies. Obviously, they didn't. Lucas or any filmmaker should absolutely never listen to fans, most of whom have absolutely terrible ideas about creative decisions. Just because you bought a ticket, doesn't mean you "own" the film, it just means you can sit there and watch another persons art. Same if you buy a disc or a digital copy - it's just a copy of the film that you can watch. You don't "own" the film. You can certainly have an opinion about it and criticize it, but that's where it ends. These pedantic fanboys who bitch and moan all the time just need to grow up and either let it go or be an adult about it and realize that your are just an audience member, nothing more. If you want to be creative, by all means. Man up. Write a Star Wars book or draw a comic or create your own art in whatever medium suits you. Until you reach the level of Lucas. Until you are a truly creative and imaginative individual, your perspective on the situation is severely lacking.

I couldn't disagree with you more here. As someone said earlier today the theatrical cut of Star Wars was the one that took all of the Oscars. It doesn't matter how many warts it has in Lucas' eyes.

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Perhaps I overstated the fan part, it's not like the hate wagon suddenly jumped out at him. Lucas always said that he'd take the critical mauling for the prequels because they were his films, down to the last frame, i.e. he got to make the Star Wars movies that he'd always wanted so he didn't give a shit about what anyone thought.

But when he couldn't sell Red Tails, when the studios turned their backs on him and most didn't even bother to send their reps to a screening, that's what did for him. He's put so much into the industry and I guess he thought he'd always get something back. When he didn't, it was time to move on.

Except that Red Tails was fair at best. The script is incredibly sloppy.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by octagon

The relevant fanbase here really isn't all that big.

http://www.the-numbers.com/alltime-bluray-sales-chart

As of the end of the last year the Complete Saga sold 1.7M units. That's a respectable enough number for a pricey box set but it's not the kind of number that suggests some vast, untapped riches ripe for the taking.

I don't know what kind of numbers the OT standalone set moved but what's a realistic ballpark for a combined total? 2.5M? Maybe 3M?

Star Wars is huge by any standard. Star Wars on Blu-ray is only huge by Blu-ray standards. And a UOT release - for all the heat and buzz it would generate - wouldn't even be huge by that standard.

It wouldn't move millions of units. It wouldn't even move hundreds of thousands of units. In all likelihood it would move tens of thousands of units.

That's certainly a respectable enough number and would probably cover restoration costs but all this talk of free money and financial windfalls is unwarranted.

This release might very well happen someday but nobody is going to get rich doing it.

But you also have people who didn't buy the 6 movie set they bought just the Ep 4-6 set, and as mentioned people who didn't bother at all. Those people would most certain come out. When those are considered I think the original trilogy would sell at least 700,000-800,000. I would say at least half of the people who bought the 6 movie set are big Star Wars fans and more likely to re-buy restored versions. More Blu-ray players have also been sold since 2011 so the buyer base is larger too as a whole.

[al cos.]

1. It would not lose money
2. Doing it is worthwhile.

Every reason that gets trotted out to justify not doing it is feeble chickenshit.

[Gold Ranger]

1,700,000,000 Complete Saga Sets sold, correct?
Times that by 80...
That set alone paid for anything new to be done to the movies, be it more additions in future editions or even paving the way to get the Unaltered Set coming.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

Except that Red Tails was fair at best. The script is incredibly sloppy.

Sure, I didn't say it was Citizen Kane, the point is that the studios didn't even bother showing up to see the promo screening in the first place. Insider rumours and stories about the film may well have put them off, but that was a big slap in the face for Lucas.

[Kryptonic]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

I couldn't disagree with you more here. As someone said earlier today the theatrical cut of Star Wars was the one that took all of the Oscars. It doesn't matter how many warts it has in Lucas' eyes.

That has nothing to do with my post.

[The Fallen Deity]

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

It's simple as this - fans don't have a say in anything regarding content. If they don't like what's going on with a series or franchise, then they can stop paying to watch the movies. Obviously, they didn't. Lucas or any filmmaker should absolutely never listen to fans, most of whom have absolutely terrible ideas about creative decisions. Just because you bought a ticket, doesn't mean you "own" the film, it just means you can sit there and watch another persons art. Same if you buy a disc or a digital copy - it's just a copy of the film that you can watch. You don't "own" the film. You can certainly have an opinion about it and criticize it, but that's where it ends. These pedantic fanboys who bitch and moan all the time just need to grow up and either let it go or be an adult about it and realize that your are just an audience member, nothing more. If you want to be creative, by all means. Man up. Write a Star Wars book or draw a comic or create your own art in whatever medium suits you. Until you reach the level of Lucas. Until you are a truly creative and imaginative individual, your perspective on the situation is severely lacking.

No offence but I think this post is making you seem extremely childish and selfish.

You're basically saying that people have to suck it up and only accept the Special Editions and if they don't than they're pedantic fanboys who need to grow up.

Thanks for insulting a huge part of the Star Wars fanbase. *slow claps*

[svenge]

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

Until you reach the level of Lucas. Until you are a truly creative and imaginative individual, your perspective on the situation is severely lacking.

For the sake of clarification, are we speaking of the George Lucas of 1973-1983, or the George Lucas of the last 20 years? Because if it's the latter, even a summer camp arts-and-crafts tent would qualify under that criteria...

[Elvis]

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

That has nothing to do with my post.

Please elaborate on why you seem to not want the originals released. Its a win /win for everyone. It's a win for the constant Gen x crybabies like myself who finally get "our" version of Star Wars like we saw it and love it. It's a win for the studio's because they will make more money, much more than enough to pay for any kind of restoration. It's a win for the film industry beacuse the unaltered versions are the ones held in such high esteem by the various film archive groups. It's a win for Lucas's peers as the most important ones have stated that the originals should be preserved and released. And it's a win for this board......as no more arguing why they should or should not be released.

[thebard]

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

It's simple as this - fans don't have a say in anything regarding content. If they don't like what's going on with a series or franchise, then they can stop paying to watch the movies. Obviously, they didn't. Lucas or any filmmaker should absolutely never listen to fans, most of whom have absolutely terrible ideas about creative decisions. Just because you bought a ticket, doesn't mean you "own" the film, it just means you can sit there and watch another persons art. Same if you buy a disc or a digital copy - it's just a copy of the film that you can watch. You don't "own" the film. You can certainly have an opinion about it and criticize it, but that's where it ends. These pedantic fanboys who bitch and moan all the time just need to grow up and either let it go or be an adult about it and realize that your are just an audience member, nothing more. If you want to be creative, by all means. Man up. Write a Star Wars book or draw a comic or create your own art in whatever medium suits you. Until you reach the level of Lucas. Until you are a truly creative and imaginative individual, your perspective on the situation is severely lacking.

Ok, so now that you've defined the films as art, let's follow that analogy with a hypothetical: If Picasso, later in his life, after Guernica had been exhibited and garnered critical praise, decided that the painting needed... more color. Or he wanted to change the expression on that cow's face. You'd be ok if he took it off the wall at the museum, and just... painted over it? And said "well the original doesn't exist anymore. It was just a draft."

You'd be ok with that?

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

That has nothing to do with my post.

It has everything to do with it. See my comments above.

[jlk5844]

Originally Posted by thebard

Ok, so now that you've defined the films as art, let's follow that analogy with a hypothetical: If Picasso, later in his life, after Guernica had been exhibited and garnered critical praise, decided that the painting needed... more color. Or he wanted to change the expression on that cow's face. You'd be ok if he took it off the wall at the museum, and just... painted over it? And said "well the original doesn't exist anymore. It was just a draft."

You'd be ok with that?



It has everything to do with it. See my comments above.

Agreed.
Once you put your art out into the world it's not your baby anymore. People are free to do whatever they please with it.

[Kryptonic]

Originally Posted by The Fallen Deity

No offence but I think this post is making you seem extremely childish and selfish.

You're basically saying that people have to suck it up and only accept the Special Editions and if they don't than they're pedantic fanboys who need to grow up.

Thanks for insulting a huge part of the Star Wars fanbase. *slow claps*

That's not what I said at all. I'm basically saying have your opinion, but respect the artist and their intentions and quit acting like he or she owes you something. The only person an artist, like Lucas, owes anything to his him or herself.

Originally Posted by thebard

Ok, so now that you've defined the films as art, let's follow that analogy with a hypothetical: If Picasso, later in his life, after Guernica had been exhibited and garnered critical praise, decided that the painting needed... more color. Or he wanted to change the expression on that cow's face. You'd be ok if he took it off the wall at the museum, and just... painted over it? And said "well the original doesn't exist anymore. It was just a draft."

You'd be ok with that?

Yes, because it's his art, not mine. I have no say in the matter. If he wants to change it later in life, that's up to him. Of course, I can choose not like it, but I can't demand that he give me something that he doesn't think is his best work.

[Kryptonic]

Originally Posted by jlk5844

Agreed.
Once you put your art out into the world it's not your baby anymore. People are free to do whatever they please with it.

This is 100% wrong in every regard. It's the artists movie or book or painting because...they created it. When you buy a print of a Picasso, it's just a print. You don't own the painting. Of course you can go over it with Crayons and proclaim it to be an improvement, but even that still doesn't make it yours.

[rickah88]

Originally Posted by jlk5844

Agreed.
Once you put your art out into the world it's not your baby anymore. People are free to do whatever they please with it.

Unless you buy the artwork(in the case of Star Wars ~$5 Billion), the only thing you own is an opinion of it. That's it.

[thebard]

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

Yes, because it's his art, not mine. I have no say in the matter. If he wants to change it later in life, that's up to him. Of course, I can choose not like it, but I can't demand that he give me something that he doesn't think is his best work.

Ok, so... bear with me while we follow this further. Let's assume you're correct, and the social and cultural value of a work of art has no bearing whatsoever.

Does Lucas have the right to alter Star Wars and eliminate the originals (and let's be clear, this is the point. I don't argue that he can tinker all he wants; the unavailability of the originals is the issue here), because he owns the rights to the intellectual property, or because he is the creator of the material?

If the former... and let's go back to the Picasso example for a second... assume the painting isn't on loan to a museum, but rather purchased at auction by a private collector. Does that collector have the right to "go over it with crayons", as you put it? If George Lucas purchased the rights to The Wizard of Oz, or Snow White, or War And Peace... could he alter them, and make the originals unavailable?

If the latter... How far does this "right of creativity" extend? To the story? The special effects? The cinematography? Maybe he had a hand in those things, arguably even oversaw them, but he didn't construct them by himself, in a vacuum. Can he re-edit and recompose the music? He certainly didn't write that. What if, for example, he only directed one of the first three movies, and not the other two... would he still have the right to alter another director's work?

[Maxwell Everett]

Originally Posted by octagon

I don't know how many people refused to buy the existing BDs because they wanted unaltered cuts but I very strongly suspect there aren't millions of those people lurking in the weeds just waiting to pounce on a UOT bd release.

Are there thousands of people like you out there? Of course. Tens of thousands? Perhaps.

Hundreds of thousands or millions? No, sorry, don't see it.

Worldwide? There could be hundreds of thousands, easily. Harmy's STAR WARS Despecialized Edition thread at originaltrilogy.com has nearly 2 million views.

[rickah88]

Originally Posted by thebard

Ok, so... bear with me while we follow this further. Let's assume you're correct, and the social and cultural value of a work of art has no bearing whatsoever.

Does Lucas have the right to alter Star Wars and eliminate the originals (and let's be clear, this is the point. I don't argue that he can tinker all he wants; the unavailability of the originals is the issue here), because he owns the rights to the intellectual property, or because he is the creator of the material?

If the former... and let's go back to the Picasso example for a second... assume the painting isn't on loan to a museum, but rather purchased at auction by a private collector. Does that collector have the right to "go over it with crayons", as you put it? If George Lucas purchased the rights to The Wizard of Oz, or Snow White, or War And Peace... could he alter them, and make the originals unavailable?

If the latter... How far does this "right of creativity" extend? To the story? The special effects? The cinematography? Maybe he had a hand in those things, arguably even oversaw them, but he didn't construct them by himself, in a vacuum. Can he re-edit and recompose the music? He certainly didn't write that. What if, for example, he only directed one of the first three movies, and not the other two... would he still have the right to alter another director's work?

Yes. All day long.

Clearly the answer is yes, as Lucas has maintained his stance for decades, and I fully support him. As the artist(and previous owner) of all things Star Wars, it was totally his right. Anyone demanding that he release, what he perceives as the unfinished project, is just a self-entitled fan.
Now let me just state, I would love to have the originals, and would buy them Day #1, but this IS not the case, and HAS not been the case...and I fully support that. I have lost exactly zero sleep over this, since the blu-ray was announced.

Artistic intent trumps all.

As for all your examples, I guess we'll just have to see if any of them come into play. Although I suspect they won't.

[thebard]

Originally Posted by rickah88

Yes. All day long.

Clearly the answer is yes, as Lucas has maintained his stance for decades, and I fully support him. As the artist(and previous owner) of all things Star Wars, it was totally his right. Anyone demanding that he release, what he perceives as the unfinished project, is just a self-entitled fan.
Now let me just state, I would love to have the originals, and would buy them Day #1, but this IS not the case, and HAS not been the case...and I fully support that. I have lost exactly zero sleep over this, since the blu-ray was announced.

Artistic intent trumps all.

As for all your examples, I guess we'll just have to see if any of them come into play. Although I suspect they won't.

You actually evaded my question... but you would fall, it seems, on the side of creatorship.

So when Episode VII comes out, and appearances are made my Han Solo, Luke & Leah... characters created by Lucas... we can expect that a few years down the line we will see Lucas adding new special effects, new music cues, a new ending... and an insistence that the original cut disappear... because he is the artist that created this universe and because he can?