Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Bruce Campbell]

Originally Posted by blonde_devil

That's what I mean about a modern audience - the planets needed to look more realistic. Putting in a picture of a globe just wouldn't cut it today. Look at TNG - same thing is happening there because you need to make it look realistic. But look at the ship - no major changes that jump out. The idea was just to make it looks like it was sharper as opposed to adding a beak to a sand monster or some of the changes that happened in Star Wars.

BillieCassin, I'll check it out but I thought he always said there is no complete scan. I know there were issues with the original negative but I thought he said he just scanned what he needed/could and recreated the rest. I could be wrong though(it does happen occasionally).

I don't know, Amok Time could have used a dance number right before the fight between Spock and Kirk takes place. Vulcan's doing the Egyptian would have been awesome.

[crazyBLUE]

Wow ~ Don't think in all the years I have seen this thread turn into a Star Trek thread

[Geoff D]

@BillieCassin: I wouldn't say that the original versions are "lost". The fact is, there's still huge swathes of original camera footage in the bastardised SE negatives. There's your starting point.

Yes, a few frames have gone here and there due to the SE edit, but let's not make it into a bigger issue than it needs to be. Back in 2003 a new transfer was done for Terminator 2 which seamlessly recreated the 'lost' frames for the SE edit, and here we are 11 years later so there's no reason why such a technique wouldn't work for Star Wars.

The biggest issue is regarding the trims of the original negative which were replaced outright. If Lucas had any sense at all, even just the tiniest scintilla of recognition of what these movies mean to pop culture, then he'd have stored the offcuts. Even if he didn't, there are other sources which can be used to fill in (which was in fact done in 1997 for some of the CRI negative shots which were too badly faded, though even those shots could probably have the colour restored digitally with today's tools). Hell, why not scan the VistaVision VFX passes at 6K like Warners did with the large format VFX shots for Blade Runner's Final Cut?

It'd go a little something like this: Lowry scans the SE negatives. Lowry scans the offcuts from the originals. They then work their dirt removal/degrain/sharpening/regrain mojo on it, along with the recreation of the missing frames. LFL signs off on the colour grade. JOB DONE: they've now got pristine 4K versions that will literally look better than they did in 1977/80/83, and they can then create DCP's, Blu-rays, even do a filmout to modern intermediate stock to create brand-new 'archival' negatives that can then be stored safely away.

The original versions of the Star Wars movies are out there, they just need the right people to put 'em together.

[Elvis]

Originally Posted by crazyBLUE

Wow ~ Don't think in all the years I have seen this thread turn into a Star Trek thread

LoL crazy...maybe it's for the best? it morphed....

[rexcrk]

Originally Posted by Elvis

At least with Star Trek you had a choice. That's all that matters is the choice.

Exactly. I feel like, watching all the movies in I-VI order is great with the special editions.

But sometimes I'd like to just watch the original version of the movies for standalone viewings too.

[crazyBLUE]

Originally Posted by Elvis

LoL crazy...maybe it's for the best? it morphed....

It might just be Elvis But If it continues much more then it will be considered off topic.

A little off topic is OK because it happens everywhere. The Mods know this & allow it. When it takes the thread over then something needs to be done about it

[bongozoid]

Originally Posted by BillieCassin

That has always been my base issue with them (aside from the historical significance of the original films not being able to appreciate).

In short, it's that what was done wasn't done very well, and it's largely revisionist/random vs. things that really could have been fixed and looked better.

Some of the changes I actually like - Bespin, for example - it was always so strange and isolated feeling, for a "cloud city". I love the inserted windows. They enhance. And I actually don't mind the Ewoks blinking - it was intended to begin with they just couldn't get it to work right and it proved to be too expensive to do it practically.

But other stuff - like the Rancor scene - which could have been cleaned up so much more and has always looked a little iffy (I daresay, as neat as how they did it was, that even as a small kid in the theaters in 1983 I thought it took me out of the film for a moment in the close-ups because the compositing was just not right, even if I didn't know what compositing was at the time). Now while I definitely didn't want a CGI rancor stuck in there, I just can't believe that with modern tech they couldn't go back in and make the existing elements blend more seamlessly together.

And what really gets folks going, I think you will find, is the tonal revisionism - the poster child being Han Shot First, but also elsewhere. Jedi Rocks (the biggest abomination of them all, to me, next to replacing Sebastian Shaw at the end) changes the entire tone of Jabba's Palace from a dark and scary place to the set of a children's television show. It's sole purpose is to make the Palace more "kid friendly" and less "scary". It changes the entire tone of the entire Jabba's Palace sequence.

If it had just been fixes like correcting matte lines, etc., and tweaks to the backgrounds like Cloud City, vs. what was actually done, I think the topic wouldn't nearly be as controversial as it obviously still is, all these years later.

More than anything, these are the things that bother me most. I am in the VAST minority that always had Return of the Jedi as my fav of the films. The revisions to that film have made it the one I genuinely can not watch anymore. It isn't the same movie - not at all. Sure, it has the same title, but it might as well be Attack of the Clones.

[Elvis]

Originally Posted by bongozoid

More than anything, these are the things that bother me most. I am in the VAST minority that always had Return of the Jedi as my fav of the films. The revisions to that film have made it the one I genuinely can not watch anymore. It isn't the same movie - not at all. Sure, it has the same title, but it might as well be Attack of the Clones.

I really think it's an age thing more than anything else. I would not say you were in a VAST minority though. Maybe I am wrong but the reason I say that is most Star Wars fans that I have met that are around 10 years younger than I and Jedi was the first one that they saw in the theater and were old enough to remember always seem to like Jedi the most. For myself it was always the first was the best film (even though ESB might have had a beter story) as I was 18 when Jedi came out and by then I thought it had gone too muppet/puppet...and liked it nowhere near as much as the first two.

[IndyMLVC]

But...but...but...but...once again, only the "fanboys" hate the prequels.

[Batmon77]

Is the Ewoks cartoon considered canon?

[Elvis]

Originally Posted by IndyMLVC

But...but...but...but...once again, only the "fanboys" hate the prequels.

Other than Empire over Star Wars that is spot on with me. The Phantom Menace (other than Jar Jar and dumb Midi-chlorian story) was by far the best of the Prequels (that's the only reason I even own the prequel set). Clones the worst and Sith not much better...in fact I can't understand all the love for Sith. Just dreadful....

[bongozoid]

Originally Posted by Elvis

I really think it's an age thing more than anything else. I would not say you were in a VAST minority though. Maybe I am wrong but the reason I say that is most Star Wars fans that I have met that are around 10 years younger than I and Jedi was the first one that they saw in the theater and were old enough to remember always seem to like Jedi the most. For myself it was always the first was the best film (even though ESB might have had a beter story) as I was 18 when Jedi came out and by then I thought it had gone too muppet/puppet...and liked it nowhere near as much as the first two.

I only say that it feels like a large minority because I always see negative comments about Return of the Jedi. It's cool - it doesn't diminish my enjoyment of the film, unlike Lucas' apologists seem to think any insult directed at the prequels/the altered trilogy ruins their enjoyment. I can appreciate we all have different opinions.

You could be right, though. I was the generation after you; my first Star Wars viewing was a triple feature when I was 5. I remember getting a full playset of Sy Snootles and the Max Rebo band the following xmas (so you can imagine just what I think of 'Jedi Rocks')

Originally Posted by IndyMLVC

But...but...but...but...once again, only the "fanboys" hate the prequels.

I'm more surprised there are actually people that think Attack of the Clones is the best of the series.

[bongozoid]

Originally Posted by Batmon77

Is the Ewoks cartoon considered canon?

Good question... what about Caravan of Courage?
Battle for Endor??

[radewagon]

Originally Posted by bongozoid

More than anything, these are the things that bother me most. I am in the VAST minority that always had Return of the Jedi as my fav of the films. The revisions to that film have made it the one I genuinely can not watch anymore. It isn't the same movie - not at all. Sure, it has the same title, but it might as well be Attack of the Clones.

Out of curiosity, why do you think it is such a different film now? I agree with most people about the Jabba's Dance number being absolutely awful and changing the way the palace feels, but that's not enough of a change to make the movie feel like Attack of the Clones, is it?

Also, I know you didn't mention it, but I really love that they got rid of Sebastian Shaw at the end of Jedi. I remember growing up with Jedi and I never cared for the way that Anakin's ghost showed up at the end of the flick because I had no connection to the guy portraying him. To me, he was just some dude who had zero right to be Vader. I hated him being there.

After watching the version with Hayden replacing Shaw, seeing Anakin redeemed as a ghost finally had an emotional resonance with me. I felt happy for him. I was all like, yeah, there's the good that was in him. It's a very positive change. I honestly don't see why anyone would prefer that an actor that had such little impact on the saga be given precedent during a scene of such import.

Also, for what it's worth, I think that a lot of the effects changes in the OG Star Trek were far from being innocuous. Stylistically, they stick out like sore thumbs and briefly take you out of the experience (though they never ruin it). I'm pretty surprised they were accepted so easily by the Trek community.

[bongozoid]

Originally Posted by radewagon

Out of curiosity, why do you think it is such a different film now? I agree with most people about the Jabba's Dance number being absolutely awful and changing the way the palace feels, but that's not enough of a change to make the movie feel like Attack of the Clones, is it?

Also, I know you didn't mention it, but I really love that they got rid of Sebastian Shaw at the end of Jedi. I remember growing up with Jedi and I never cared for the way that Anakin's ghost showed up at the end of the flick because I had no connection to the guy portraying him. To me, he was just some dude who had zero right to be Vader. I hated him being there.

After watching the version with Hayden replacing Shaw, seeing Anakin redeemed as a ghost finally had an emotional resonance with me. I felt happy for him. I was all like, yeah, there's the good that was in him. It's a very positive change. I honestly don't see why anyone would prefer that an actor that had such little impact on the saga be given precedent during a scene of such import.

Also, for what it's worth, I think that a lot of the effects changes in the OG Star Trek were far from being innocuous. Stylistically, they stick out like sore thumbs and briefly take you out of the experience (though they never ruin it). I'm pretty surprised they were accepted so easily by the Trek community.

Anakin being replaced was the worst part for me... I mean, if you were Luke Skywalker, would you see that ghost and think 'Gosh, Dad, you look so happy and peaceful now!' or would you think 'Ben - who is that creepy young dude standing next to you?'

It has been so long that I probably couldn't pinpoint everything that changed the film for me, but the last time I watched it was the 2004 version it just was not the same. I'd watch it again and give you more detail, but I really don't want to.

If you still like it or consider it the best, that's cool. I just think all the changes were unnecessary and only served to distract from the original story. Things like song and dance numbers, galaxy-wide celebrations, and big beak coming out of a pit - they were all just so out of place.

[svenge]

Originally Posted by Batmon77

Is the Ewoks cartoon considered canon?

Originally Posted by bongozoid

Good question... what about Caravan of Courage?
Battle for Endor??

No, and no. Still prefer them over TPM, however...

[Thomas Guycott]

Originally Posted by svenge

No, and no. Still prefer them over TPM, however...

They used to be, until last month.

[BillieCassin]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

@BillieCassin: I wouldn't say that the original versions are "lost". The fact is, there's still huge swathes of original camera footage in the bastardised SE negatives. There's your starting point.

The original versions of the Star Wars movies are out there, they just need the right people to put 'em together.

Oh, like I said - I totally agree it can be done (and I believe it already has been). I was just giving a brief summary of the making of the SE's (another cheap plug for the article in my .sig - which I have no connection to whatsoever, it's just very good). And the treatment of the O-Neg, which just from a historical standpoint is bothersome - it can be fixed digitally and with tricks, and I'm sure the output would be great - but it's so highly ironic in terms of statements Lucas has made in the past about preserving original versions of films in a historic sense since he allowed them to mutilate the O-Neg of the OT.

It's also just such a blow that they DID restore the OOT fully - and then mussed it up. Since digitally doing the entire thing wasn't workable at the time, they could have at least worked off a new IP - those strips of film were historic relics. It would be like restoring a classic car to it's original glory, shiny and new - and then graffiti all over it. Or cleaning and restoring the Lincoln Memorial to it's original lustre and then replacing the head with (insert political figure). Just...a shame - the holy grail was done - and then it was dismantled.

Originally Posted by Elvis

I really think it's an age thing more than anything else. I would not say you were in a VAST minority though. Maybe I am wrong but the reason I say that is most Star Wars fans that I have met that are around 10 years younger than I and Jedi was the first one that they saw in the theater and were old enough to remember always seem to like Jedi the most. For myself it was always the first was the best film (even though ESB might have had a beter story) as I was 18 when Jedi came out and by then I thought it had gone too muppet/puppet...and liked it nowhere near as much as the first two.

I too love Jedi, and in ways it's my favorite (particularly Jabba's Palace). I agree it's an age thing as well - it was the first one I was old enough to see in theaters and know what was going on. I wasn't aware of any fan backlash until much later, probably the mid-90's when I saw an article in a magazine about "50 reasons ROTJ sucks" or something like that, which included things like Carrie Fisher's acting and pointing out that she was behind Jabba the Hutt getting high, LOL. I had no idea the hate for the film amongst some folks.

To be absolutely honest, all the films have their shortcomings - for instance, I find some portions of even Star Wars to be incredibly boring.

Obviously (see my avatar) Leia is my favorite character, bar none - which is why I have made my own edits just of her scenes. But if I was sitting down for an afternoon and only had a couple of hours, these are the "best" of the OT for me:

*Once Luke, Han, and Chewie enter the detention block to the end of the film
*Beginning of ESB until they depart from Luke in Space
*Asteroid Field/Mynock
*Arrival at Bespin to the end of the Film
*Beginning of ROTJ until (again) they depart in space
*The Battle of Endor

Basically, looking at that - I guess it's just that I find Luke pretty boring, haha. Yoda rocks, so I'd probably add a bit of that in - but overall, Luke is kind of whiny and bland to me.

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Originally Posted by bongozoid

Good question... what about Caravan of Courage?
Battle for Endor??

I hope so because that would mean Wilford Brimley is a part of Star Wars canon

[BillieCassin]

Originally Posted by JimmyTwoTimes

I hope so because that would mean Wilford Brimley is a part of Star Wars canon

I'm just tickled that Cliff Claven is

I had no idea about that until I read the Rinzler books. He was right there the whole time in one of my favorite scenes and I never even noticed him! Now I give him a nod every time.