Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by sdchrgrboy

There was a reason he had the cough. It was explained in the CW series. His fight with Mace was the reason for the cough.

Bless. Yeah, I know how they wrote it into the story, but it was put in to begin with because Lucas came in to work one day with a hacking cough. And he subsequently gave it to Grievous, it must've been very contagious.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by Thomas Guycott

Yes, it sucks that Anakin was separated from his mother, but at the same time it's not like Qui-Gon kidnapped Anakin by force, nor is the Order at large simply murdering families to acquire new students. The Jedi Order is a flawed, stagnant institution, but they aren't the villains in this equation.

You question the Jedi Order's motives but you seem to treat Palpatine's as inconsequential: it's okay to get rid of them because they're a bunch of bullies. Palpatine's motivation was to eliminate the Jedi Order so the Sith could destroy the Republic and conquer the galaxy. The dark side is all about exploiting the Force through fear, anger and hatred for personal gain and power.

Looking at things from a different perspective is fine, but that perspective needs to have some factual grounding. It can't just be contrary for the sake of it.

From the audience's perspective, we see the Jedi as heroes and the Sith as villains and certainly the Jedi thought they were doing the right thing. What we don't really know is what was truly in the minds of Palpatine and the Sith because Lucas never really tells us. We know that Palpatine wants to rule the galaxy, but we don't know why he wants to rule the galaxy. What does he (or the Sith) get out of it? Power? Wealth? Fame? Does Palpatine think he's doing the right thing for the galaxy or does he know that what he's doing is for personal gain? We don't know.

We don't even know what Vader gets out of the deal once he learns that Padame is dead since we missed out on some 20 years of the story.

Meanwhile while the Jedi don't seem to be intentionally evil, they sure are completely incompetent and they make the wrong decision at almost every venture, beginning with separating Anakin from his mother and in the end, they've completely destroyed themselves.

For the most part, I don't think the U.S. Government is intentionally evil, but it sure does a lot of evil things, even when it has supposedly good intentions. Past support for fascists over communists is just one example, especially in Latin America. Arming Bin Laden to fight the Russians in Afghanistan is another.

In spite of their supposed powers of perception of The Force, they don't know that Palpatine is the Sith Lord, they don't know that both the Clone Army and the Droid Army will be used against them; while they have misgivings about Anakin, they don't really do anything about it, they get caught up in trade negotiations, they don't protect the children in their own temple and they're pretty much outwitted at every turn.

One can make the case that their restrictions on thought, behavior and relationships are what caused Anakin to essentially become a paranoid psychotic. Their teachings and actions are completely inconsistent: they preach that anger leads to the dark side, but when they're in a fight, they sure do seem angry. And in the end (of the PT), they fail to kill Anakin, giving the galaxy 25 years of Vader (even if the reality is that Lucas had no choice since he wrote the OT first).

The Jedi Order is a flawed, stagnant institution, but they aren't the villains in this equation.

They might not be the biggest villains, but because they are a highly flawed and stagnant institution, they still could be considered to be villains.

I've always wondered (and I've posted about this before) whether Lucas intentionally made the Jedi so flawed and he was purposely making a comment on well-meaning organized religions in our world or whether it was simply a matter of that the Jedi had to fail in the PT in order for the OT to still make sense.
If it's the former, his writing (the story, not the dialog) was actually more sophisticated than he's generally given credit for. If it's the latter, it explains why so much of these films' plots don't really make any sense.

I've hoped that Episode VII would have picked up on some of these ideas - perhaps Luke himself realizes that the Jedi were completely flawed and all these years later is still troubled by that fact. Perhaps he's been able to "research" the history of Anakin and discovers that the Jedi's flaws certainly had a role in turning Anakin into Vader. Or the opposite: that Luke sticks with his belief in the Jedi in spite of everyone else agreeing that their incompetence helped lead to 25 years of grief for the galaxy. But I have a feeling that none of this will be part of the new plot. I suspect they'll be some new Sith bad guy and Luke has to get off his butt to go fight him. A lot of action and not many new ideas, but I don't want to pre-judge a film I haven't seen since I complain when other people do that. Hopefully, it will be great.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Lucas says on the Blu-Ray commentary track he wanted a respiratory issue for Grievous as foreshadowing for Vader. Had nothing to do with the cartoon.

I did like how each of the Sith apprentices foreshadowed an aspect of Vader. Maul was a powerful young apprentice who got pwned by Obi-Wan. Dooku was a fallen Jedi who'd turned to the Dark Side. Grievous was a cyborg. Mix 'em all together, and thatsa Vader!

That's what Lucas is GREAT at doing, weaving these (and plenty more) thematic elements into the prequels ([edit]which links into Zoet's point about the sophistication of his writing). They're richly textured films, if one cares to look deep enough. Trouble is, the dialogue and the acting and the plotting is usually so shite it's often hard to look past those facets and appreciate what's underneath. But, on the flip side, the prequels cannot be appreciated purely as abtract works either. They needed a much better balance between story and subtext and action, but sadly Lucas wasn't up to the task.

[stvn1974]

Originally Posted by Thomas Guycott

It also made half the audience wonder why a robot was coughing.

Grievous was running on Windows is why he was coughing. If he was a Mac he would have defeated the Jedi.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

In spite of their supposed powers of perception of The Force, they don't know that Palpatine is the Sith Lord, they don't know that both the Clone Army and the Droid Army will be used against them; while they have misgivings about Anakin, they don't really do anything about it, they get caught up in trade negotiations, they don't protect the children in their own temple and they're pretty much outwitted at every turn.

To be fair to Lucas, the Jedi do actually state in Ep II that their powers are diminishing because they couldn't sense the creation of the Clone Army, nor were they aware that Kamino had been wiped from their archives (which touches on the myopia of the Jedi Order when Jocasta Nu haughtily states that "if it is not in our archives, it does not exist"). As for them not sensing that the Clones are 'bad', that's all explained in Clone Wars S6.

[Show spoiler]Basically there's a biological 'chip' implanted in every clone's brain which will be activated when Order 66 is given. And S6 fills in so many more of the PT's gaps it's not even funny.

It's not mentioned specifically why their powers are diminishing, but with all the talk about bringing 'balance' to the Force it's not difficult to surmise that as the Sith have grown in power behind the scenes, the influence of the Jedi has waned. Something I've always loved about the OT is how Leia talks smack to Vader and Tarkin in Star Wars because she doesn't give a shit, and she (nor Vader) can sense anything between them because the Force is so out of whack. But as the Force begins to realign itself, i.e. as the 'good' grows due to Luke's increasing power, she can sense more of the Force: I love that bit in Empire when she looks darkly at Vader in the carbon freeze chamber and backs away from him, and of course there's the properly written 'Force' elements in Jedi, like Leia giving a knowing look when Luke says he can sense Vader on the command ship, and of course "He wasn't. I can feel it" at the end of the movie.

[blonde_devil]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I did like how each of the Sith apprentices foreshadowed an aspect of Vader. Maul was a powerful young apprentice who got pwned by Obi-Wan. Dooku was a fallen Jedi who'd turned to the Dark Side. Grievous was a cyborg. Mix 'em all together, and thatsa Vader!

only problem is Lucas is good at hiding the hints so well that most people don't really see them. That or he is good at making it up after people start pointing random things out.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by blonde_devil

only problem is Lucas is good at hiding the hints so well that most people don't really see them. That or he is good at making it up after people start pointing random things out.

As I said, everything else is so dire at various points it gets hard to spot all that thematic goodness. And as for your second point, that also has some truth to it, like how Lucas 'always' wanted to tell the first movie from the droid's POV. Uh, no, he shot a load of stuff with Luke and his mates on Tatooine which was intercut with the droids, until Lucas was told by his pals that the movie was too long.

[blonde_devil]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

As I said, everything else is so dire at various points it gets hard to spot all that thematic goodness. And as for your second point, you're spot on, like how Lucas 'always' wanted to tell the first movie from the droid's POV. Uh, no, he shot a load of stuff with Luke and his mates on Tatooine which was intercut with the droids, until Lucas was told by his pals that the movie was too long.

Yep. He even said that the whole series was from the droid's perspective. Yeah, if they were so insignificant as he wanted they wouldn't be allowed near half the stuff we saw so nice try but nope. Lucas should have stuck to being a producer - get the ideas, hire writers and directors who can then bring them to life but stay away from it himself.

[Geoff D]

That's pretty much what we're gonna get with Ep VII, so fingers crossed!

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

To be fair to Lucas, the Jedi do actually state in Ep II that their powers are diminishing because they couldn't sense the creation of the Clone Army, nor were they aware that Kamino had been wiped from their archives (which touches on the myopia of the Jedi Order when Jocasta Nu haughtily states that "if it is not in our archives, it does not exist"). As for them not sensing that the Clones are 'bad', that's all explained in Clone Wars S6.

[Show spoiler]Basically there's a biological 'chip' implanted in every clone's brain which will be activated when Order 66 is given. And S6 fills in so many more of the PT's gaps it's not even funny.

It's not mentioned specifically why their powers are diminishing, but with all the talk about bringing 'balance' to the Force it's not difficult to surmise that as the Sith have grown in power behind the scenes, the influence of the Jedi has waned. Something I've always loved about the OT is how Leia talks smack to Vader and Tarkin in Star Wars because she doesn't give a shit, and she (nor Vader) can sense anything between them because the Force is so out of whack. But as the Force begins to realign itself, i.e. as the 'good' grows due to Luke's increasing power, she can sense more of the Force: I love that bit in Empire when she looks darkly at Vader in the carbon freeze chamber and backs away from him, and of course there's the properly written 'Force' elements in Jedi, like Leia giving a knowing look when Luke says he can sense Vader on the command ship, and of course "He wasn't. I can feel it" at the end of the movie.

But in TPM, the Council doesn't even believe that the Sith still exist. But they know about the prophecy of the one who will bring the Force back into balance. The movie never tells us what that means, but they seem to know. In ROTS this is expanded to say, "destroy the sith and bring balance to the Force". But when they first learned of Anakin, they believed the Sith had been gone for years and couldn't have returned without them knowing, yet they knew of the prophecy.

I'm sorry, none of that makes sense. Didn't then, doesn't now. I think it's just another sign that Lucas was really flying by the seat of his pants when he wrote the PT.

[sarah_wentworth]

Originally Posted by Lope de Aguirre

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqF_...ature=youtu.be

lol thanks. the Stormtroopers seemed to be doing a good job.

Originally Posted by Thomas Guycott

You should realize that's like saying the National Fascist Party wasn't so bad because it was good for Italy.



Yes, it sucks that Anakin was separated from his mother, but at the same time it's not like Qui-Gon kidnapped Anakin by force, nor is the Order at large simply murdering families to acquire new students. The Jedi Order is a flawed, stagnant institution, but they aren't the villains in this equation.

You question the Jedi Order's motives but you seem to treat Palpatine's as inconsequential: it's okay to get rid of them because they're a bunch of bullies. Palpatine's motivation was to eliminate the Jedi Order so the Sith could destroy the Republic and conquer the galaxy. The dark side is all about exploiting the Force through fear, anger and hatred for personal gain and power.

Looking at things from a different perspective is fine, but that perspective needs to have some factual grounding. It can't just be contrary for the sake of it.

i suppose whatever capitalistic country you are from is just perfect. anyway, i don't know if it was good for Italy. i've only seen some old news reels and Mussolini seemed to be popular in them.

Qui-Gon won anakin in a bet which isn't much better than taking him by force. i mean come on, he bet on anakin's freedom. anakin was nothing but an "object" that could benefit the jedi's from day one. notice how anakin's mother wasn't included in the wager? she had no force powers thats why. absolutely cruel to use children as objects.

the jedi council sent even sent windu to arrest Palpatine and for what crime? being a Sith? complete prejudice. all Palpatine ever wanted was peace. he said it to Vader and had no reason to lie, "Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy, and we shall have peace." and no, i'm not being contrary for the sake of it lol. the Sith actually cared about the galaxy and the people in it. jedi have no feelings and don't care. they actually practice supressing emotions and not caring

Originally Posted by Cook

Sorry for jumping on your ass about it last night. I also think the Jedi were insufferable douche nozzles in the PT lol just not the villains. Truth be told the star wars galaxy suffers because of the actions of both the Jedi and Sith, but the Sith are definitely the worse of the two groups by a large margin.

And yeah Sauron was the lieutenant of and trained under Morgoth who was an evil sadistic god of Middle Earth. Both Sauron and Morgoth got their jollies off by destroying beautiful things and torturing and maiming various creatures and people. Basically they took a shit on middle-earth and its people to spite Eru the Creator of Arda and the other gods of Middle Earth.

that makes sense. maybe they are both bad. i wish more people could understand that that.

Originally Posted by KaineKinetic

So is the population... The empire know how to implement great population control.

they sure do!

Originally Posted by JimmyTwoTimes

But in TPM, the Council doesn't even believe that the Sith still exist. But they know about the prophecy of the one who will bring the Force back into balance. The movie never tells us what that means, but they seem to know. In ROTS this is expanded to say, "destroy the sith and bring balance to the Force". But when they first learned of Anakin, they believed the Sith had been gone for years and couldn't have returned without them knowing, yet they knew of the prophecy.

I'm sorry, none of that makes sense. Didn't then, doesn't now. I think it's just another sign that Lucas was really flying by the seat of his pants when he wrote the PT.

i could never understand that either. i still don't understand how destroying the Sith can bring balance to the force when everyone has a right to use it or whatever. Sith can use the force to. are jedi's now saying being a Sith is a crime lol?

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by sarah_wentworth

lol thanks. the Stormtroopers seemed to be doing a good job.

i suppose whatever capitalistic country you are from is just perfect. anyway, i don't know if it was good for Italy. i've only seen some old news reels and Mussolini seemed to be popular in them.

Qui-Gon won anakin in a bet which isn't much better than taking him by force. i mean come on, he bet on anakin's freedom. anakin was nothing but an "object" that could benefit the jedi's from day one. notice how anakin's mother wasn't included in the wager? she had no force powers thats why. absolutely cruel to use children as objects.

the jedi council sent even sent windu to arrest Palpatine and for what crime? being a Sith? complete prejudice. all Palpatine ever wanted was peace. he said it to Vader and had no reason to lie, "Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy, and we shall have peace." and no, i'm not being contrary for the sake of it lol. the Sith actually cared about the galaxy and the people in it. jedi have no feelings and don't care. they actually practice supressing emotions and not caring

that makes sense. maybe they are both bad. i wish more people could understand that that.

they sure do!

i could never understand that either. i still don't understand how destroying the Sith can bring balance to the force when everyone has a right to use it or whatever. Sith can use the force to. are jedi's now saying being a Sith is a crime lol?

the amount of sheer ignorance in this post is overwhelming

[Thomas Guycott]

Originally Posted by sarah_wentworth

i suppose whatever capitalistic country you are from is just perfect. anyway, i don't know if it was good for Italy. i've only seen some old news reels and Mussolini seemed to be popular in them.

I have no reason to pay attention to anything you say in the future. Blocked.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by JimmyTwoTimes

But in TPM, the Council doesn't even believe that the Sith still exist. But they know about the prophecy of the one who will bring the Force back into balance. The movie never tells us what that means, but they seem to know. In ROTS this is expanded to say, "destroy the sith and bring balance to the Force". But when they first learned of Anakin, they believed the Sith had been gone for years and couldn't have returned without them knowing, yet they knew of the prophecy.

I'm sorry, none of that makes sense. Didn't then, doesn't now. I think it's just another sign that Lucas was really flying by the seat of his pants when he wrote the PT.

They don't believe that Anakin is The One in TPM, so why should they then automatically believe that the Sith have returned just because the prophecy sez so? Mace even says so - "I do not believe the Sith could've returned without us knowing" - which is another example of their arrogance. But if you paid attention at the end of the film, you'll remember that Mace then concludes that Maul was a Sith, which is why they go into Eps II and III believing that the Sith are active again and so the prophecy is now coming into focus. See? It's not that hard to make sense of some of this stuff.

As for the balance thing, I always saw it as Anakin brought balance by destroying the Jedi (the organisation, if not the "faith") and the Sith. He did the former at the end of ROTS and the latter at the end of ROTJ. Luke may well proclaim that he is a Jedi, "like my father before me", but make no mistake: he's not a Jedi of old.

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

They don't believe that Anakin is The One in TPM, so why should they then automatically believe that the Sith have returned just because the prophecy sez so? Mace even says so - "I do not believe the Sith could've returned without us knowing" - which is another example of their arrogance. But if you paid attention at the end of the film, you'll remember that Mace then concludes that Maul was a Sith, which is why they go into Eps II and III believing that the Sith are active again and so the prophecy is now coming into focus. See? It's not that hard to make sense of some of this stuff.

As for the balance thing, I always saw it as Anakin brought balance by destroying the Jedi (the organisation, if not the "faith") and the Sith. He did the former at the end of ROTS and the latter at the end of ROTJ. Luke may well proclaim that he is a Jedi, "like my father before me", but make no mistake: he's not a Jedi of old.

When first hearing about Anakin, Mace refers to the prophecy of the chosen one who will bring the Force back into balance. Wouldn't this suggest that the Force is already out of balance? If so, shouldn't they know why (the Sith)? If not, does the prophecy state that one day the Force will go out of balance but then be brought back into balance?

The movies never tell us what "balance" means in this case or what the prophecy even says. The line in ROTS says "destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force". Does this mean that balance is restored by destroying the Sith, or is destroying the Sith separate from bringing balance? Everyone has their own theory and Lucas finally came up with the explanation that it meant the Sith had to be destroyed to re-balance the Force. So again, the Jedi believed the Sith were gone but knew the Force was out of balance because of the Sith. Or knew that the Force would someday be out of balance because of the Sith.

I'm sorry, none of this works for me. EU stuff shouldn't have to explain any of it. It's just not very good writing. Good lord, the movies never even explained what the Sith were. Evil Jedi with evil red lightsabers, apparently. Again, EU shouldn't have this job. TPM was supposed to be the starting point for the entire saga and it doesn't even explain who or what the villains are or what they're doing. It doesn't even tell the audience who the little green guy with the big ears is.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by JimmyTwoTimes

When first hearing about Anakin, Mace refers to the prophecy of the chosen one who will bring the Force back into balance. Wouldn't this suggest that the Force is already out of balance? If so, shouldn't they know why (the Sith)? If not, does the prophecy state that one day the Force will go out of balance but then be brought back into balance?

The movies never tell us what "balance" means in this case or what the prophecy even says. The line in ROTS says "destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force". Does this mean that balance is restored by destroying the Sith, or is destroying the Sith separate from bringing balance? Everyone has their own theory and Lucas finally came up with the explanation that it meant the Sith had to be destroyed to re-balance the Force. So again, the Jedi believed the Sith were gone but knew the Force was out of balance because of the Sith. Or knew that the Force would someday be out of balance because of the Sith.

I'm sorry, none of this works for me. EU stuff shouldn't have to explain any of it. It's just not very good writing.

Mace refers to the prophecy but he doesn't say whether or not he believes it is happening - he's certainly not impressed by Anakin - so all the agonising about what they did/didn't know about balance or the Sith in TPM is pointless. By the end of the show, they realise that the Sith have returned without their knowledge and that it's likely that the boy is the Chosen One, but they weren't able to detect either event so they now know that the Force is indeed out of balance (which is proven beyond doubt in AOTC when they realise they did not forsee the Clone Army). Every event of what we know of the prophecy is coming to pass, do we really need to know every clause, footnote and sub-paragraph of it?

I totally agree that Lucas tied himself in knots when trying to explain it - killing the bad guys brings balance? wut? - but I didn't need any EU stuff to fill in the gaps. Anakin helped to destroy the Jedi. Fact. Anakin helped to destroy the Sith. Fact. This leaves the way clear for Force users to follow their own paths, not the narrow views of the Jedi nor the lust for power of the Sith. If Luke starts up his own new Jedi order in the new movies, it then follows that there must be Sith also.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by JimmyTwoTimes

Good lord, the movies never even explained what the Sith were. Evil Jedi with evil red lightsabers, apparently. Again, EU shouldn't have this job. TPM was supposed to be the starting point for the entire saga and it doesn't even explain who or what the villains are or what they're doing. It doesn't even tell the audience who the little green guy with the big ears is.

Just caught your edit. They're valid points, not least when approaching the movie as a standalone work in and of itself. But it's NOT a standalone work, it never was and it never will be - and I'm just talking about the OT and NOT the EU - so Lucas made some big assumptions of the audience with his writing. They might, on the off chance, have seen the original trilogy so Lucas didn't see the need to burden TPM with more exposition about why the good guys are good and the bad guys were bad. Jeez, people moan so much about all the politics and the other boring talky bits in TPM, now the complaint is that there's not enough of the talky stuff? I do concede that not actually identifying Yoda during the course of the film was dumb, but did anyone here honestly sit there in the theater and say "who's the little green guy?".

It's a shame, then, that Lucas didn't put his shortcuts to better use by telling a more compelling story. Instead, his use of cinematic shorthand only added fuel to the fanboy fire.

[popeflick]

I love how people populate this thread bagging on the guy who's work created this thread. Lot of armchair filmmakers. This stuff gets old and you should let it go.

You like this stuff deep down or you wouldn't be here.

-or-

You don't like this stuff and enjoy living in negativity.

In either event get over yourself.

[Geoff D]

Still, it would've been cool to have had an LOTR-style prologue where we saw the Sith and the Jedi throw down in a massive final battle, with a voice-over from Obi-Wan that explained who/what/when/where, but what would they have prefaced it with? "An even longer time ago..."? Sadly, such an opening would've betrayed the stylistic template of the entire series. As it is, I'm surprised Lucas actually showed Anakin's nightmares in ROTS, it's the only time we're allowed into a character's head like that.

[edit] You know what though? In the same way that Clone Wars - which is canon, kids! - fills in some of the gaps in the PT, I'm hoping that the new movies may also fill in the gaps of the entire saga to date, like who the Sith are etc. Doesn't have to be in the 'numbered' Eps either, we could well get a standalone Jedi vs Sith origin movie at some point. That's the thing about Lucas' storytelling intentions with the PT, it's so grand and so sprawling and has got so much implied history that a few lines of exposition were never gonna cut it anyway, he made it too big to cover in just three movies. Good job there are some more coming up.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by popeflick

I love how people populate this thread bagging on the guy who's work created this thread. Lot of armchair filmmakers. This stuff gets old and you should let it go.

You like this stuff deep down or you wouldn't be here.

-or-

You don't like this stuff and enjoy living in negativity.

In either event get over yourself.

While I agree that Lucas bashing has become a sport and much of the bashing is performed by people who can't write a single proper sentence and have never accomplished anything creative in their lives, it is still legitimate to analyze and criticize his works as long as those criticisms are backed up by logical arguments that take history, literature and filmmaking into account. Obviously, the "Lucas sucks and he ruined my childhood" crowd doesn't fall into that category.

After all, critics have been doing the same for Shakespeare for 400 years.

It's because Star Wars is such an icon in filmmaking history and because it's so loved that it's subject to such criticism and analysis.

Like you, I have bashed the bashers but at the same time I've also posted many times about what I perceive as critical flaws in the telling of the tale. As I posted not too long ago, I recently re-watched the Blu-ray versions of all six films and I both liked and disliked them more than I had remembered. Each time I've seen them, I see both things that I love but also more critical flaws.

Before the age of home video, there were few opportunities to see films more than once, so they didn't get the kind of critical review that films get today when fans know every single scene and practically every single bit of dialogue in a film.