Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

While I agree that Lucas bashing has become a sport and much of the bashing is performed by people who can't write a single proper sentence and have never accomplished anything creative in their lives, it is still legitimate to analyze and criticize his works as long as those criticisms are backed up by logical arguments that take history, literature and filmmaking into account. Obviously, the "Lucas sucks and he ruined my childhood" crowd doesn't fall into that category.

After all, critics have been doing the same for Shakespeare for 400 years.

It's because Star Wars is such an icon in filmmaking history and because it's so loved that it's subject to such criticism and analysis.

Like you, I have bashed the bashers but at the same time I've also posted many times about what I perceive as critical flaws in the telling of the tale. As I posted not too long ago, I recently re-watched the Blu-ray versions of all six films and I both liked and disliked them more than I had remembered. Each time I've seen them, I see both things that I love but also more critical flaws.

Before the age of home video, there were few opportunities to see films more than once, so they didn't get the kind of critical review that films get today when fans know every single scene and practically every single bit of dialogue in a film.

For once, I agree with every word you said. There's still room for reasoned, objective criticism and/or celebration of Lucas' work, which is why I love threads like this (well, when they're not being hijacked by anti/pro Lucas zealots and/or outright trolls). I see so much of what I love about Star Wars and also a lot of what I don't like about Star Wars, and it's fun to discuss it all in a civilised manner.

It's a good job there was no internet in Shakespeare's day, he'd have had to put up with RLM and Honest Trailers and Everything Wrong With... and HISHE and every other Youtube Hero™ breaking his stories down out of context and ripping the piss out of them.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

To be fair to Lucas, the Jedi do actually state in Ep II that their powers are diminishing because they couldn't sense the creation of the Clone Army, nor were they aware that Kamino had been wiped from their archives (which touches on the myopia of the Jedi Order when Jocasta Nu haughtily states that "if it is not in our archives, it does not exist"). As for them not sensing that the Clones are 'bad', that's all explained in Clone Wars S6.

[Show spoiler]Basically there's a biological 'chip' implanted in every clone's brain which will be activated when Order 66 is given. And S6 fills in so many more of the PT's gaps it's not even funny.

It's not mentioned specifically why their powers are diminishing, but with all the talk about bringing 'balance' to the Force it's not difficult to surmise that as the Sith have grown in power behind the scenes, the influence of the Jedi has waned. Something I've always loved about the OT is how Leia talks smack to Vader and Tarkin in Star Wars because she doesn't give a shit, and she (nor Vader) can sense anything between them because the Force is so out of whack. But as the Force begins to realign itself, i.e. as the 'good' grows due to Luke's increasing power, she can sense more of the Force: I love that bit in Empire when she looks darkly at Vader in the carbon freeze chamber and backs away from him, and of course there's the properly written 'Force' elements in Jedi, like Leia giving a knowing look when Luke says he can sense Vader on the command ship, and of course "He wasn't. I can feel it" at the end of the movie.

Sorry, I can't buy all this. The Jedi are supposed to be very sophisticated - if there's a possibility of a chip implanted in the clones, why didn't they check for that possibility. Since the approval of the building of the clones was supposedly done by a Jedi, shouldn't they have checked every aspect of that? Obi-wan takes a cursory look at the factory, gets into his little fight with Jango and leaves.

I think you're making rationalizations to make the story work. But I don't think those elements are really there. Leia talks tough to Vader and Tarkin because we're led to think that she's been helping to fight the war for years and therefore she's become a tough chick, not because of anything having to do with the Force. When she looks at Vader in the Carbon Freeze chamber and backs away, there's really nothing in the film that implies it has anything to do with the force, she's just scared of the 'man in black'. And if she had the Force, why didn't Vader sense it when they first met? The answer is simple: when Episode IV was written, Lucas hadn't yet decided to make Leia sister and Luke son of Vader. Once he did, we try to rationalize the story and it's certainly okay to hide some info from the audience, but the reality is that because of the story changes, it could never really work. It's a miracle it worked as well as it did.

You can't tell me that if Lucas had ever decided to reboot all six films that they wouldn't have been written differently to correct all the logical flaws in the story.

As others have posted, this "balance to the Force" thing doesn't make much sense either. Wouldn't there be balance in the Force if there were an equal number of Jedi and Sith? Or is it that "balance in the Force" really means that there can be no challenges to the Jedi and "balance" is a rationalization for the Jedi to eliminate their enemies. And do the Jedi want to eliminate the Sith because they want to rule the galaxy and this would bring harm to its citizens or do they want to eliminate the Sith because of ancient hatreds, not unlike Sunni and Shia.

When Star Wars was released in 1977, my wife was studying esoteric philosophy. When she saw Star Wars, she felt like Lucas was trying to adapt some of its principles, restated as the Force, but as if he had just studied the first page of the very first course book and nothing else.

How have the Sith "grown in power behind the scenes"? There seems to be as few Sith as Jedi. And when the films talk about "if the Sith have returned" what does that mean? From the Jedi perspective, does it mean that they thought they had already eliminated all the Sith? From the Sith perspective, they know the Jedi are there - they have that Temple right in midtown where they don't permit parking in front.

I think in your other post, you and JimmyTwoTimes raise some very valid points on the issue of what "balance in the Force" really means. Frankly, I think Lucas thought up this general concept, but never really thought it through, partially because he never expected to make six films and it wasn't all that important for just one, even if he had the outlines for nine stories in his head.

[Geoff D]

Of course I'm rationalizing the Leia/Force balance stuff, she wasn't the sister at that point. (I wasn't implying she was using the Force with Tarkin and Vader though, quite the opposite.) But, in the same way that Uncle Owen's "that's what I'm afraid of" works like a mofo, Leia's stuff does too, even if it is just dumb ****ing luck.

[thegoat]

Originally Posted by JimmyTwoTimes

When first hearing about Anakin, Mace refers to the prophecy of the chosen one who will bring the Force back into balance. Wouldn't this suggest that the Force is already out of balance? If so, shouldn't they know why (the Sith)? If not, does the prophecy state that one day the Force will go out of balance but then be brought back into balance?

The movies never tell us what "balance" means in this case or what the prophecy even says. The line in ROTS says "destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force". Does this mean that balance is restored by destroying the Sith, or is destroying the Sith separate from bringing balance? Everyone has their own theory and Lucas finally came up with the explanation that it meant the Sith had to be destroyed to re-balance the Force. So again, the Jedi believed the Sith were gone but knew the Force was out of balance because of the Sith. Or knew that the Force would someday be out of balance because of the Sith.

I'm sorry, none of this works for me. EU stuff shouldn't have to explain any of it. It's just not very good writing. Good lord, the movies never even explained what the Sith were. Evil Jedi with evil red lightsabers, apparently. Again, EU shouldn't have this job. TPM was supposed to be the starting point for the entire saga and it doesn't even explain who or what the villains are or what they're doing. It doesn't even tell the audience who the little green guy with the big ears is.

This is something that is key to Star Wars and always has been: the universe exists as it is. It doesn't try to justify or explain itself. It tells a story with the presumption that the audience is a part of the universe and understands the references made by the characters, whether it be the Sith, the Sand People, the Kessel run, gundarks, nerf herders, and so on. We know enough to make the story work, and that's it. Womprats are small creatures that it's okay to kill for fun, apparently. The prophecy is something that exists in Jedi culture that nobody really understands. Certain Jedi can retain their consciousness after death. We have no idea where this stuff comes from, how it works, or why it's there. We just know that it is. It's what makes the universe so engrossing. It sweeps you up just long enough for the adventure, leaving your imagination to fill in the blanks.

The EU is not needed to fill in most of this (though I would agree that certain dropped threads needed a bit more story time, thank you clone wars), but it's there for people who want to explore the fantasy world in a greater context.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

Sorry, I can't buy all this. The Jedi are supposed to be very sophisticated - if there's a possibility of a chip implanted in the clones, why didn't they check for that possibility. Since the approval of the building of the clones was supposedly done by a Jedi, shouldn't they have checked every aspect of that? Obi-wan takes a cursory look at the factory, gets into his little fight with Jango and leaves.

But the Jedi didn't have time to give the Clones the once-over, that's the point. It was either take charge of the Clone Army which was ordered by a Jedi or watch the Republic fall to the Separatists. War was literally thrust upon them. And if you've seen Clone Wars S6 then you'll know that

[Show spoiler]the 'chip' was a biological creation, so it wasn't a piece of metal that could be simply be detected with a scan. Why would they search for something like that anyway? If the Clones are fit, healthy and responding to orders, not to mention dying in their droves fighting for the Republic, what possible reason would the Jedi have to check them over in that manner? It's not about sophistication, it's about survival.

[The Fallen Deity]

Originally Posted by sarah_wentworth

lol thanks. the Stormtroopers seemed to be doing a good job.

i suppose whatever capitalistic country you are from is just perfect. anyway, i don't know if it was good for Italy. i've only seen some old news reels and Mussolini seemed to be popular in them.

Qui-Gon won anakin in a bet which isn't much better than taking him by force. i mean come on, he bet on anakin's freedom. anakin was nothing but an "object" that could benefit the jedi's from day one. notice how anakin's mother wasn't included in the wager? she had no force powers thats why. absolutely cruel to use children as objects.

the jedi council sent even sent windu to arrest Palpatine and for what crime? being a Sith? complete prejudice. all Palpatine ever wanted was peace. he said it to Vader and had no reason to lie, "Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy, and we shall have peace." and no, i'm not being contrary for the sake of it lol. the Sith actually cared about the galaxy and the people in it. jedi have no feelings and don't care. they actually practice supressing emotions and not caring

that makes sense. maybe they are both bad. i wish more people could understand that that.

they sure do!

i could never understand that either. i still don't understand how destroying the Sith can bring balance to the force when everyone has a right to use it or whatever. Sith can use the force to. are jedi's now saying being a Sith is a crime lol?

You do realise that Palpatine was bulls****ing when he said that he wanted peace.

He single handedly created a military dictatorship, ordered the construction of a planet destroying super weapon/space station and gave orders to slaughter children.

He only cared about ruling the galaxy with an iron fist and striking fear into people.

Also the Jedi aren't bad.

Whilst they can come across as a bit cold because they suppress their emotions they're still good people.

[thegoat]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

As others have posted, this "balance to the Force" thing doesn't make much sense either. Wouldn't there be balance in the Force if there were an equal number of Jedi and Sith? Or is it that "balance in the Force" really means that there can be no challenges to the Jedi and "balance" is a rationalization for the Jedi to eliminate their enemies. And do the Jedi want to eliminate the Sith because they want to rule the galaxy and this would bring harm to its citizens or do they want to eliminate the Sith because of ancient hatreds, not unlike Sunni and Shia.

Balance, in this case, doesn't work like a scale. Would you say there was a stable balance of powers if there was one genocidal dictator for every democratic leader? The Sith throw the Force out of balance because they twist and abuse it. They use it to gain physical strength and power, which they use to inflict cruelty and death. The Jedi, othe other hand, are "keepers of the peace," guardians of justice.

The order became corrupt, of course, to the point that they were partially responsible for the Force being out of balance. And their failures legitimized the Dark Side as an alternative, which Palpatine exploited to sway Dooku and Anakin.

[Elvis]

Originally Posted by popeflick

I love how people populate this thread bagging on the guy who's work created this thread. Lot of armchair filmmakers. This stuff gets old and you should let it go.

You like this stuff deep down or you wouldn't be here.

-or-

You don't like this stuff and enjoy living in negativity.

In either event get over yourself.

Umm kinda yeah both his good and bad work created this thread.

[Thomas Guycott]

Originally Posted by The Fallen Deity

You do realise that Palpatine was bulls****ing when he said that he wanted peace.

He single handedly created a military dictatorship, ordered the construction of a planet destroying super weapon/space station and gave orders to slaughter children.

He only cared about ruling the galaxy with an iron fist and striking fear into people.

Not to mention engineering a brutal war and controlling both sides to set his plan in motion, killing billions along the way.

[popeflick]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

For once, I agree with every word you said. There's still room for reasoned, objective criticism and/or celebration of Lucas' work, which is why I love threads like this (well, when they're not being hijacked by anti/pro Lucas zealots and/or outright trolls). I see so much of what I love about Star Wars and also a lot of what I don't like about Star Wars, and it's fun to discuss it all in a civilised manner.

It's a good job there was no internet in Shakespeare's day, he'd have had to put up with RLM and Honest Trailers and Everything Wrong With... and HISHE and every other Youtube Hero™ breaking his stories down out of context and ripping the piss out of them.

Even if you ignore the latent pro fascist statements there's been very little "reasoned" criticism the last few pages. The mocking tone is obvious, so use the roll eye gremlins all you like (not directed at you) but it's been pretty infantile for some time. If you're objective and reasoned you'll know what I speak of. It doesn't graduate past the level of "Lucas sucks LOL."

[sarah_wentworth]

Originally Posted by Thomas Guycott

I have no reason to pay attention to anything you say in the future. Blocked.

cool i guess.

Originally Posted by The Fallen Deity

You do realise that Palpatine was bulls****ing when he said that he wanted peace.

He single handedly created a military dictatorship, ordered the construction of a planet destroying super weapon/space station and gave orders to slaughter children.

He only cared about ruling the galaxy with an iron fist and striking fear into people.

Also the Jedi aren't bad.

Whilst they can come across as a bit cold because they suppress their emotions they're still good people.

he seemed sincere when he said he wanted peace but peace is hard to come by when jedi's are trying to kill you on sight for the crime of being a Sith.

many countries on this planet have planet destroying weapons called nuclear bombs. it doesn't make the leaders of those counties villains or evil. those were jedi children. they are being trained to hate and kill Sith. he was maybe acting in self defense.

running a nation is hard enough. i can only imagine how hard it would be to run a galaxy. in some cases ruling with an iron fist and striking fear into people may be warranted. i'm sure most people just went about their daily routine and it never really mattered who was in power. like when a republican or democrat is in power not much changes.

jedi aren't bad unless you are a Sith. look at it from a Sith's point of view.

anyway, i like Star Wars, especially the prequels. if my views are wrong then whatever. i'm glad you like the jedi. they're not that bad. thanks.

Originally Posted by thegoat

Balance, in this case, doesn't work like a scale. Would you say there was a stable balance of powers if there was one genocidal dictator for every democratic leader? The Sith throw the Force out of balance because they twist and abuse it. They use it to gain physical strength and power, which they use to inflict cruelty and death. The Jedi, othe other hand, are "keepers of the peace," guardians of justice.

The order became corrupt, of course, to the point that they were partially responsible for the Force being out of balance. And their failures legitimized the Dark Side as an alternative, which Palpatine exploited to sway Dooku and Anakin.

i honestly never checked this out but is there some Force rule book that explains all this?

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by sarah_wentworth

cool i guess.

he seemed sincere when he said he wanted peace but peace is hard to come by when jedi's are trying to kill you on sight for the crime of being a Sith.

many countries on this planet have planet destroying weapons called nuclear bombs. it doesn't make the leaders of those counties villains or evil. those were jedi children. they are being trained to hate and kill Sith. he was maybe acting in self defense.

running a nation is hard enough. i can only imagine how hard it would be to run a galaxy. in some cases ruling with an iron fist and striking fear into people may be warranted. i'm sure most people just went about their daily routine and it never really mattered who was in power. like when a republican or democrat is in power not much changes.

jedi aren't bad unless you are a Sith. look at it from a Sith's point of view.

anyway, i like Star Wars, especially the prequels. if my views are wrong then whatever. i'm glad you like the jedi. they're not that bad. thanks.




i honestly never checked this out but is there some Force rule book that explains all this?

you HAVE to be trolling, there's no other logical explanation

[Optimus]

Originally Posted by sarah_wentworth

cool i guess.

he seemed sincere when he said he wanted peace but peace is hard to come by when jedi's are trying to kill you on sight for the crime of being a Sith.

many countries on this planet have planet destroying weapons called nuclear bombs. it doesn't make the leaders of those counties villains or evil. those were jedi children. they are being trained to hate and kill Sith. he was maybe acting in self defense.

running a nation is hard enough. i can only imagine how hard it would be to run a galaxy. in some cases ruling with an iron fist and striking fear into people may be warranted. i'm sure most people just went about their daily routine and it never really mattered who was in power. like when a republican or democrat is in power not much changes.

jedi aren't bad unless you are a Sith. look at it from a Sith's point of view.

anyway, i like Star Wars, especially the prequels. if my views are wrong then whatever. i'm glad you like the jedi. they're not that bad. thanks.




i honestly never checked this out but is there some Force rule book that explains all this?

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by OptimusL

omg.... that has to be the greatest gif ever for that response... like a hand in a glove,

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by popeflick

Even if you ignore the latent pro fascist statements there's been very little "reasoned" criticism the last few pages. The mocking tone is obvious, so use the roll eye gremlins all you like (not directed at you) but it's been pretty infantile for some time. If you're objective and reasoned you'll know what I speak of. It doesn't graduate past the level of "Lucas sucks LOL."

It's a Star Wars thread, dude. To keep railing against the zealots and the trolls is to try and hold back the sea. I'm reminded of ROTS' title crawl: "There are heroes on both sides. Evil is everywhere". But I stick with it because there IS room for discussion and civilised debate, and I keep chipping away because I love Star Wars and I want to learn everything I can about it. That means taking in the good and the bad, and getting golden nuggets like this every so often:

Originally Posted by thegoat

Balance, in this case, doesn't work like a scale. Would you say there was a stable balance of powers if there was one genocidal dictator for every democratic leader? The Sith throw the Force out of balance because they twist and abuse it. They use it to gain physical strength and power, which they use to inflict cruelty and death. The Jedi, othe other hand, are "keepers of the peace," guardians of justice.

The order became corrupt, of course, to the point that they were partially responsible for the Force being out of balance. And their failures legitimized the Dark Side as an alternative, which Palpatine exploited to sway Dooku and Anakin.

Bloody hell, I never thought about it like that. Mind......BLOWN.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

It's a Star Wars thread, dude. To keep railing against the zealots and the trolls is to try and hold back the sea. I'm reminded of ROTS' title crawl: "There are heroes on both sides. Evil is everywhere". But I stick with it because there IS room for discussion and civilised debate, and I keep chipping away because I love Star Wars and I want to learn everything I can about it. That means taking in the good and the bad, and getting golden nuggets like this every so often:


Bloody hell, I never thought about it like that. Mind......BLOWN.

I think Lucas meant "equilibrium". Balance sounds better, though.

[Geoff D]

"Balance" is a simpler way of putting it for sure.

[The Fallen Deity]

Originally Posted by sarah_wentworth

cool i guess.

he seemed sincere when he said he wanted peace but peace is hard to come by when jedi's are trying to kill you on sight for the crime of being a Sith.

many countries on this planet have planet destroying weapons called nuclear bombs. it doesn't make the leaders of those counties villains or evil. those were jedi children. they are being trained to hate and kill Sith. he was maybe acting in self defense.

running a nation is hard enough. i can only imagine how hard it would be to run a galaxy. in some cases ruling with an iron fist and striking fear into people may be warranted. i'm sure most people just went about their daily routine and it never really mattered who was in power. like when a republican or democrat is in power not much changes.

jedi aren't bad unless you are a Sith. look at it from a Sith's point of view.

anyway, i like Star Wars, especially the prequels. if my views are wrong then whatever. i'm glad you like the jedi. they're not that bad. thanks.




i honestly never checked this out but is there some Force rule book that explains all this?

As I already said he was talking crap when he said he wanted peace.

Palpatine's established as an evil, manipulative person who's only goal was to rule the galaxy through fear and brute force.

That's why the Jedi tried to kill him.

The Jedi are good and the Sith are evil.

That's how Lucas wrote them.

The Galactic Empire are basically Nazis in space.

There's nothing good about that.

[svenge]

Originally Posted by The Fallen Deity

The Galactic Empire are basically Nazis in space.

That would explain the Imperial Navy's snappy black and grey uniforms, wouldn't it...

[Gold Ranger]

The Jedi did not try to kill Palpatine, they went to arrest him.
They got their arses handed to them withing 10 seconds.
Mace decided that he needs to die, because NO prison will hold him.

He wasn't arrested for being a Sith, rather for starting a war and artificially prolonging it.
Also for destroying planets and cultures and species because of the war.

And yes, right from Episode 1, we learn that Palpatine subjugated his own HomeWolrd to further his Political Ambitions. He enslaved and killed millions on his own planet to become Supreme Chancellor.