Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

You're asking people to change their belief that Lucas had no thought or storytelling ability to make the prequels. So of course not.

The fact that Lucas aped various moments is ultimately meaningless in a context where he contradicts said information. Yoda doesn't reverse-engineer every single line in the OT. He does in the Prequels. Yoda says the Force should be used for knowledge and defense, never for attack...then he attacks people in the Prequels. Lucas planned on revealing Anakin was created by the Sith...then said he ran out of time and couldn't get 20% of his planned backstory into the prequels. The fact that the use of the Gungans are similar to the use of Ewoks on a structural level doesn't compensate for the fact that Gungans irritated audiences. That's the problem with you guys and this Ring Theory promotion. You're tired of people bashing on the prequels, but citing instances where Lucas imitated elements from the original films doesn't compensate for all the other myriad choices. You're still talking about an Empire created by the words, "Dellow Fellegates", and giant plot points (Sifo-Dyas, Anakin's mysterious creation) completely abandoned. Ring Theory is no substitute for execution and ultimate achievement.

[Angel Eyes]

Originally Posted by svenge

According to Amazon UK, it looks like Fox is putting out all 6 movies individually on DVD in England this coming Monday (June 1st). I'm just glad that they had the common decency to use the 1997 SE posters as the basis for the SW/Empire/Jedi covers instead of the original theatrical one-sheets...

I'm confused because those OT SE Struzan posters were dog *. The original one sheets are by far the best posters.

[imsounoriginal]

Originally Posted by Wally Q

Mass Effect is a trilogy and excells beyond the genre and is cinematic in scope.

And yes, while The Godfather is a masterpiece on a technical level, it feels telegraphed to me by a guy who viewed the whole thing as a studio "for them" than an actual love or passion for it.

The Dark Knight had a beginning, a middle, and an ending to it's trilogy that felt organic thematically.

The Lord of the Rings is one of the great epics of cinema in 21st Century is pretty much the equivalent of three Empires.

Toy Story: flawless.

The Pusher trilogy is the best live action trilogy to ever be produced.


I'd kill to do my own Phantom Edit on Jedi and rework the whole first act because Jabba's Palace just brings the film to a huge halt before it can even get going. And it's a film where not enough happens. I've never cared for Jedi since I was a little boy and as I got older, I preferred the Revenge of the Jedi script with the Imperial homeworld and the multiple Death Stars. The Jedi we got was a.. Meh... that only felt alive on Dagobah and with Vader/Luke/The Empeor, space battle above Endor. But that's just me...

It's not just you, that's basically verbatim my exact feelings/criticisms of Jedi. Although I disagree with some of your assessments of other trilogies

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by imsounoriginal

Sorry, but no. Toy Story 3 is mostly a recycling of the previous two movies. Only the last 10 minutes are of any worth. The only flawless trilogy is theatrical LOTR, although that's more of a single movie broken up into three parts by necessity, much like the book.

Jackson's LOTR is not flawless...not by any stretch. Dwarf-tossing jokes, "Go home, Sam!", gutting the Choices of Master Samwise and the Tower of Cirith Ungol chapters, Arwen somehow dying and her mortality tied into Sauron's existence, Frodo showing the Ring to a Nazgul in Osgiliath yet we're then told Sauron believes Pippin has the Ring at Theoden's Hall in Rohan...

[imsounoriginal]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Jackson's LOTR is not flawless...not by any stretch. Dwarf-tossing jokes, "Go home, Sam!", gutting the Choices of Master Samwise and the Tower of Cirith Ungol chapters, Arwen somehow dying and her mortality tied into Sauron's existence, Frodo showing the Ring to a Nazgul in Osgiliath yet we're then told Sauron believes Pippin has the Ring at Theoden's Hall in Rohan...

Points addressed in spoiler:

[Show spoiler]Dwarf-tossing jokes: humor being used to break up tension isn't a bad thing (and I honestly found it funny).

"Go home, Sam!": I don't see what was wrong with this...

gutting the Choices of Master Samwise and the Tower of Cirith Ungol chapters: been a while since I've read the books so I honestly can't remember the specifics of what these chapters were and what was left out by Jackson, but the movies are an adaptation, not a carbon-copy.

Arwen somehow dying and her mortality tied into Sauron's existence: no idea what you're talking about here (not trying to be snarky, just I really don't know how you're saying Arwen's and Sauron's fates were tied together by Jackson).

Frodo showing the Ring to a Nazgul in Osgiliath yet we're then told Sauron believes Pippin has the Ring at Theoden's Hall in Rohan: Ok yeah this is a fair point, never even occurred to me, other than to offer up an explanation and say maybe Sauron thought the Ring had switched hands from one Hobbit to another.

Sorry to go off-topic, not trying to derail the thread (derail the Star Wars thread? WHAT?! ).

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by imsounoriginal

Points addressed in spoiler:

Dwarf-tossing jokes: humor being used to break up tension isn't a bad thing (and I honestly found it funny).

Boy, I sure didn't. Thought it was tone-shattering and out of left field in an otherwise terrific film.

gutting the Choices of Master Samwise and the Tower of Cirith Ungol chapters: been a while since I've read the books so I honestly can't remember the specifics of what these chapters were and what was left out by Jackson, but the movies are an adaptation, not a carbon-copy.

My favorite chapters in the book -- Sam is tempted by the Ring, rejects it, bravely storms Cirith Ungol, uses Galadriel's phial to move past supernatural statutes that are blocking him, fights with an Orc, rescues poor Frodo who freaks and flips the flip when he finds out Sam has the Ring (they basically moved that moment to the end of The Two Towers, when Frodo attacks Sam). But that's the problem...Frodo is supposed to devolve scene by scene because of the Ring. They moved the "Frodo attacks Sam" moment to the end of the Two Towers, which doesn't leave Frodo with more room to fall. It's inverted -- Frodo's second-to-worst moment with Sam is now at the end of a different movie. Frodo would never believe Gollum and think Sam had eaten all their food, it's manipulation...trying to get Frodo alone when meeting Shelob.

Arwen somehow dying and her mortality tied into Sauron's existence: no idea what you're talking about here (not trying to be snarky, just I really don't know how you're saying Arwen's and Sauron's fates were tied together by Jackson).

Seriously, man, it's in the movie. Elrond travels to the muster of Rohan and meets with Aragorn. If Aragorn doesn't pull a Simba and accept his responsibility to become King (and defeat Sauron), Arwen will die. It doesn't make any sense, except as some kind of stakes to force Aragorn to finally accept his birthright as King of Gondor. Aragorn shouldn't need that kind of kick in the pants, but Jackson, Walsh, and Boyens thought otherwise.

LOTR The Return of the King - Andúril - Flame of the West - YouTube

[Gold Ranger]

Also, they downplayed Pippin's importance from the books in the movies.

[imsounoriginal]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Seriously, man, it's in the movie. Elrond travels to the muster of Rohan and meets with Aragorn. If Aragorn doesn't pull a Simba and accept his responsibility to become King (and defeat Sauron), Arwen will die. It doesn't make any sense, except as some kind of stakes to force Aragorn to finally accept his birthright as King of Gondor. Aragorn shouldn't need that kind of kick in the pants, but Jackson, Walsh, and Boyens thought otherwise.

LOTR The Return of the King - Andúril - Flame of the West - YouTube

My understanding was:

[Show spoiler]
Arwen chose to remain mortal, which was shown in Fellowship, because she loves Aragorn and wants to be mortal with him rather than spend all of eternity without him. So she essentially chooses to die, unlike her father. Aragorn, meanwhile, is unwilling to claim his birthright as the rightful king and take on said responsibilities, which implicitly include vanquishing evil/Sauron from Middle-Earth.

By telling Aragorn that "Arwen is dying," Elrond is telling him that Arwen chose a mortal life to be with him because she knows Aragorn is a greater man than even Aragorn himself seems to think he is ("the blood of Isildur runs though my veins" or whatever the line was), thereby motivating him to destroy Sauron.

In turn, vanquishing Sauron validates Arwen's belief in Aragorn as a great man and, as any father would want for their daughter, would give Arwen's limited, mortal life peace, prosperity, happiness, etc. knowing that Sauron has been destroyed (and Elrond knows how bad things can get if Sauron lives). Obviously Elrond would want Arwen to remain immortal (that whole thing in Two Towers where he tries to convince her is beautiful), but if she is to remain mortal, he would want his daughter to live in a peaceful time with a man he deems worthy of her, so the other part of this is Elrond literally challenging Aragorn to prove that he's worthy of not just being the king, but of his daughter.

I really don't think it was meant to insinuate that Arwen and Sauron's fates are tied together or anything, but Jackson using Arwen's mortality to motivate Aragorn is something I have no problem whatsoever with. In fact I think it's quite powerful.

(I realize I wrote that with a lot of pronouns, hopefully not too confusing )

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by imsounoriginal

My understanding was:

[Show spoiler]
Arwen chose to remain mortal, which was shown in Fellowship, because she loves Aragorn and wants to be mortal with him rather than spend all of eternity without him. So she essentially chooses to die, unlike her father. Aragorn, meanwhile, is unwilling to claim his birthright as the rightful king and take on said responsibilities, which implicitly include vanquishing evil/Sauron from Middle-Earth.

By telling Aragorn that "Arwen is dying," Elrond is telling him that Arwen chose a mortal life to be with him because she knows Aragorn is a greater man than even Aragorn himself seems to think he is ("the blood of Isildur runs though my veins" or whatever the line was), thereby motivating him to destroy Sauron.

In turn, vanquishing Sauron validates Arwen's belief in Aragorn as a great man and, as any father would want for their daughter, would give Arwen's limited, mortal life peace, prosperity, happiness, etc. knowing that Sauron has been destroyed (and Elrond knows how bad things can get if Sauron lives). Obviously Elrond would want Arwen to remain immortal (that whole thing in Two Towers where he tries to convince her is beautiful), but if she is to remain mortal, he would want his daughter to live in a peaceful time with a man he deems worthy of her, so the other part of this is Elrond literally challenging Aragorn to prove that he's worthy of not just being the king, but of his daughter.

I really don't think it was meant to insinuate that Arwen and Sauron's fates are tied together or anything, but Jackson using Arwen's mortality to motivate Aragorn is something I have no problem whatsoever with. In fact I think it's quite powerful.

(I realize I wrote that with a lot of pronouns, hopefully not too confusing )

Dude, Elrond tells Aragorn flat out that Arwen is dying. "Arwen is dying. She will not long survive the evil that spreads from Mordor. As Sauron's power grows, her strength wanes. Arwen's life is now tied to the fate of the Ring." Sauron later taunts Aragorn with an image of a dying Arwen via the Palantir.

[imsounoriginal]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Dude, Elrond tells Aragorn flat out that Arwen is dying. "Arwen is dying. She will not long survive the evil that spreads from Mordor. As Sauron's power grows, her strength wanes. Arwen's life is now tied to the fate of the Ring." Sauron later taunts Aragorn with an image of a dying Arwen via the Palantir.

Ah, I stand corrected on that. Been forever since I've seen ROTK except for bits and pieces on TV.

[Show spoiler]But even still, the rest of what I said holds up. If Jackson wants to tie Arwen's fate to the Ring, I don't have a problem with that. Sauron taunting Aragorn is perfectly fine with me because it plays into the hubris of the villain. Elrond wanting Aragorn to defeat Sauron and become King by using his daughter's impending demise to motivate him is fine with me. Aragorn needs that little bit of motivation to finally push him into accepting his birthright and taking charge of bringing the Army of the Dead to Pelennor Fields and then creating the distraction at the Black Gate. I don't see a problem with Jackson and company creating extra tension by having Aragorn reluctant to accept his birthright and needing that kick in the pants.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by imsounoriginal

Ah, I stand corrected on that. Been forever since I've seen ROTK except for bits and pieces on TV.

[Show spoiler]But even still, the rest of what I said holds up. If Jackson wants to tie Arwen's fate to the Ring, I don't have a problem with that. Sauron taunting Aragorn is perfectly fine with me because it plays into the hubris of the villain. Elrond wanting Aragorn to defeat Sauron and become King by using his daughter's impending demise to motivate him is fine with me. Aragorn needs that little bit of motivation to finally push him into accepting his birthright and taking charge of bringing the Army of the Dead to Pelennor Fields and then creating the distraction at the Black Gate. I don't see a problem with Jackson and company creating extra tension by having Aragorn reluctant to accept his birthright and needing that kick in the pants.

I've got a problem with it...putting the book aside and just going by the films, Aragorn doesn't need a kick in the pants by that point in the story. He's already promised Boromir he will defend the Men of the West. Jackson, Boyens and Walsh were very odd ducks when it came to goosing the audience in Two Towers and Return of the King. Don't get me started on Pippin tricking Treebeard to go to Isengard.

[imsounoriginal]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

I've got a problem with it...putting the book aside and just going by the films, Aragorn doesn't need a kick in the pants by that point in the story. He's already promised Boromir he will defend the Men of the West. Jackson, Boyens and Walsh were very odd ducks when it came to goosing the audience in Two Towers and Return of the King. Don't get me started on Pippin tricking Treebeard to go to Isengard.

I wouldn't take his promise of defending the Men of the West to be the same as leading them and becoming their King, so he certainly did need some extra pushing to take up that mantle. As for Pippin tricking Treebeard, I didn't mind it since it helped keep a balance of Merry and Pippin being comic relief and useful characters who helped move the story forward.

[Wally Q]

Peter Jackson was the best editor Tolkien could have asked for on The Lord of the Rings.

[Wally Q]

Originally Posted by imsounoriginal

It's not just you, that's basically verbatim my exact feelings/criticisms of Jedi. Although I disagree with some of your assessments of other trilogies

You can disagree with me but that doesn't make my opinion less valid.


And back on topic:

ALL HAIL THE ERNEST RISTER ORDER!

How can you ensure that a viewing keeps the Vader reveal a surprise, while introducing young Anakin before the end of Return of the Jedi?

Simple, watch them in this order: IV, V, I, II, III, VI.

George Lucas believes that Star Wars is the story of Anakin Skywalker, but it is not. The prequels, which establish his character, are so poor at being character-driven that, if the series is about Anakin, the entire series is a failure. Anakin is not a relatable character, Luke is.

This alternative order (which a commenter has pointed out is called Ernst Rister order) inserts the prequel trilogy into the middle, allowing the series to end on the sensible ending point (the destruction of the Empire) while still beginning with Luke's journey.

Effectively, this order keeps the story Luke's tale. Just when Luke is left with the burning question "how did my father become Darth Vader?" we take an extended flashback to explain exactly how. Once we understand how his father turned to the dark side, we go back to the main storyline and see how Luke is able to rescue him from it and salvage the good in him.


The prequel backstory comes at the perfect time, because Empire Strikes Back ends on a huge cliffhanger. Han is in carbonite, Vader is Luke's father, and the Empire has hit the rebellion hard. Delaying the resolution of this cliffhanger makes it all the more satisfying when Return of the Jedi is watched.

Narratively, it's just like a movie that starts with a big opening, then fades to "2 years earlier" for most of the movie, until it catches up with the present time and concludes.

http://www.nomachetejuggling.com/201...viewing-order/

[Wally Q]

Luke is Arthur; Anakin is Uther. Is Kylo Ren Mordred?

[imsounoriginal]

The Machete Order thing is interesting, I might try that next time I rewatch. Although I feel like Lucas and I are probably the only people on Earth who don't hate Phantom Menace.

[stvn1974]

Star Wars The Original Theatrical Trilogy
Lord Of The Rings Extended Edition Trilogy


All others.



I find it funny when people complain about the second Death Star in Jedi but then you find out they are huge fans of the Nolan Batman films. Do they not realize that Rises is just a rehash of Batman Begins with the villains wanting to destroy Gotham? Plus The Emperor's trap is 100 times better than a woman holding a city hostage because she has daddy issues.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Wally Q

You can disagree with me but that doesn't make my opinion less valid.


And back on topic:

ALL HAIL THE ERNST RISTER ORDER!

I'd be a lot more famous if people could spell my name correctly.

[Wally Q]

Originally Posted by imsounoriginal

The Machete Order thing is interesting, I might try that next time I rewatch. Although I feel like Lucas and I are probably the only people on Earth who don't hate Phantom Menace.

The Phantom Menace is the only real film of the PT and ranks third on my all time list of the Saga. I can stomach Lloyd, but I just usually doze off and nap during the pod race (only made worse by Lucas adding to the intros), but yeah, Episode I is a gem.

[Wally Q]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

I'd be a lot more famous if people could spell my name correctly.

Wait... are you.... really?

If so, I'm sorry for butchering the name.