Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Machine Gun Willy]

[MacEachaidh]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

Having to rationalize story telling = bad story telling.

That's absolutely how I feel. Having "solutions" cobbled together by fans to justify their overlooking story conflicts is just not satisfying.

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

Sorry, I think statements like this are just fan rationalizations to make up for Lucas' amazing inconsistencies and lack of internal logic in his own story. Furthermore, when Luke asks the question, which was a way for him to wade into telling Leia that they're siblings, the implication is that he does remember their mother. All of which is fine, but it needed to be written around in the prequels.

My memory of the dialogue is a little different. Doesn't Luke actually say, "I have no memories of our mother" ? But Leia definitely talks (pre-PT) as if she does, but they're hazy because she was young.

And if the Jedi were so good at seeing the future via use of the Force, then how come they couldn't foresee anything and just about every decision they ever made was the wrong one?

I don't think it was Lucas' conscious decision to make the Jedi into fools, but he was sure great at doing so. If he did this purposely, especially if it was intended as a criticism of religion, then he deserves a lot more credit than he's been given. I see Yoda's statement that the Force would enable viewing the future as a bunch of bogus religious mumbo-jumbo as expressed by most religions and that has no true meaning whatsoever, akin to "if you do X, God will talk to you".

Absolutely. My own biggest problem with the PT is that Lucas is so focused on showing the Jedi in fall, he never actually shows us anything positive about them, or gives us a reason to think of them as a good thing that we want to see preserved. They never even seem competent, aren't shown actually contributing anything to general life (except they seem to be the schoolteachers) and what we see most of is a squabble of egos and one-up-manship. Yoda couldn't see what was coming, Obi-Wan couldn't see what was coming, and Anakin's turn to the Dark is so predictable it's really hard to believe he took those wise seers by surprise. For me, that throws out the whole balance of the OT, and Tarkin has to destroy whole planets pointlessly just to prove the Empire is the black hat. (And to magnify our perception of the Rebels, since we see nothing at any other time to suggest the rebels are such a threat that the Empire has to have planet-sized destructo-space-stations and massive "star destroyers".) I've never understood why we were supposed to be cheering for the Jedi, to be honest, except that the Empire is painted as the worse choice.

It will be interesting to see how the Force is treated in the new films. I would love it if Luke has come to reject it.

Yes, by way of finally showing its value. That would add some real balance to the story imo.

[Blu-21]

With regards to Lucus, directing and the prequel trilogy, was AOTC the only one he genuinely wanted to direct? I've heard stories about how he wanted other people to direct TPM and ROTS but in the end decided against it.

[motorheadache95]

Originally Posted by Blu-21

With regards to Lucus, directing and the prequel trilogy, was AOTC the only one he genuinely wanted to direct? I've heard stories about how he wanted other people to direct TPM and ROTS but in the end decided against it.

I distinctly remember those Leonard Maltin interviews with Lucas that were on the "Faces" home video release. In that interview he stated that he was interested in directing again, and if he did, he would direct Episode I in order to set the stage for the following directors. I guess at some point he decided to just go ahead and do the whole thing himself.

[Arawn]

Originally Posted by MacEachaidh

aren't shown actually contributing anything to general life (except they seem to be the schoolteachers)

They're not schoolteachers to the general public, they only teach their own padawans.

Originally Posted by MacEachaidh

Yoda couldn't see what was coming

"The chosen one the boy may be... nevertheless, grave danger I fear in his training."

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

I see Yoda's statement that the Force would enable viewing the future as a bunch of bogus religious mumbo-jumbo as expressed by most religions

Except that's a false analogy. The Force isn't the equivalent of some bogus real-world religion. In-universe, the Force is real, not make-believe. And we know unequivocally that it can enable seeing the future. This is not in question. It does precisely that in several of the films, particularly TESB and ROTS.

[MacEachaidh]

Originally Posted by Arawn

They're not schoolteachers to the general public, they only teach their own padawans.

It's not really established either way. Are there other non-Jedi schools? It's not mentioned. The Jedi are described as a "religion", whatever that means in this context, but how optional is it? Maybe all kids are educated by the Jedi, and then choose to become active in the order or not.

Nonetheless, my point was far broader than this one little nit: this is the only positive thing they're shown doing, other than Qui-gon's "supervision" of the trade delegation, which appears to be more of an unstated police action. What makes the Jedi so great?

"The chosen one the boy may be... nevertheless, grave danger I fear in his training."

Yeah, sure ... dramatically less specific than Leia's alleged "memories" of her mother, though. And Yoda is supposed to be the great Master, so why wouldn't he see something as calamitous as the murder of the younglings and desecration of the temple, or the Emperor's embedded order that killed the majority of the Jedi without warning?

[Arawn]

Originally Posted by MacEachaidh

It's not really established either way.

They're shown teaching their own members; they're never shown teaching "regular people" even once and never is such a thing even suggested ( nor would the math work out ). But yeah, "not really established either way". Sure.

Originally Posted by MacEachaidh

And Yoda is supposed to be the great Master, so why wouldn't he see something as calamitous as the murder of the younglings and desecration of the temple, or the Emperor's embedded order that killed the majority of the Jedi without warning?

If only the films had addressed this in some way...

[MacEachaidh]

Mmmm, 'coz aggression and snarky sarcasm is always the best response, isn't it, when you haven't anything constructive to say?

Splendid job. You whittled the picked nits down even further.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by MacEachaidh

That's absolutely how I feel. Having "solutions" cobbled together by fans to justify their overlooking story conflicts is just not satisfying.

Countless movies have done this. Blade Runner is considered a masterpiece by many and people still argue if Deckard was a replicant or not.

[MacEachaidh]

Yeah mate, I realise it's not confined to Star Wars.

But both of those two examples are due to story choices by the directors. Scott apparently changed his mind on the replicant issue between versions of the film; Lucas could have told the story differently and not created the contradictions, but we got what he chose. His films, his choices, but this viewer -- originally an enthusiastic fan, but since the PT somewhat more lukewarm -- is also free to regret that he created such story problems.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Countless movies have done this. Blade Runner is considered a masterpiece by many and people still argue if Deckard was a replicant or not.

There's a world of difference between fans debating ambiguities and loyalists cobbling together post hoc rationalizations to explain away poor story choices.

Rosemary's Baby deliberately left open the possibility that Rosemary was essentially imagining and/or misinterpreting everything that was happening to her and that added another layer of enjoyment to an already brilliant film.

MI:3 used the fact nobody really knew what their MacGuffin actually did (or whether it even actually existed) as a very effective story element.

Contrast that with Padme's demise. In this case we don't have fans debating a point the movie left open-ended. In this case we have fans rejecting a story element explicitly offered by the filmmakers.

In this case, fans aren't debating whether Padme losing the will to live was a good thing or a bad thing or what it meant in the grand scheme of things. In this case pretty much everybody has rejected that story element as ridiculous and its defenders are reduced to arguing that it didn't happen that way...not really.

People debating the contents of 'the suitcase' is a sign of good writing because people were meant to wonder what was in the suitcase.

Do you think people were meant to think 'well, come on, that's just dumb' when the medical droid declared that Padme had lost the will to live?

[BladeRunner2007]

What I love about Revenge of the Sith is how great it is from time to time. It has its flaws, but it has many really strong scenes. And those are the ones when there is absolutely no dialogue. When George lets the images speak for themselves.

Order 66
Padmé's Ruminations
Vader and the Emperor overseeing the construction of the Death Star
Padmé's Funeral
The birth of Vader (where he gets the suit and rises)
The replica shot from A New Hope at the every end and also the small glimpse of baby Luke at Tatooine

[octagon]

The Legend of Darth Plagueis was far and away the best part of Sith for me.

There were several other good to very good moments but that was flat out great.

[BaerGriggs]

Originally Posted by octagon

The Legend of Darth Plagueis was far and away the best part of Sith for me.

There were several other good to very good moments but that was flat out great.

Have you read the book about Plagueis? I'm not sure if it's canon anymore but it's an amazing read.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by MacEachaidh

Yeah, sure ... dramatically less specific than Leia's alleged "memories" of her mother, though. And Yoda is supposed to be the great Master, so why wouldn't he see something as calamitous as the murder of the younglings and desecration of the temple, or the Emperor's embedded order that killed the majority of the Jedi without warning?

In ROTS, Yoda specifically says the Dark Side of the Force has clouded the council's abilities to use the Force.

[svenge]

Originally Posted by Nada

And then there's arrogant viewers unwilling to look past their own bias to be objective and open-minded.

How exactly does mindlessly defending without a shred of independent critical thought all the BS that Lucas put out over the last 20 years translate to being "objective and open-minded"?

[rickah88]

Same old SW thread!

[MechaGodzilla]

Originally Posted by BladeRunner2007

What I love about Revenge of the Sith is how great it is from time to time. It has its flaws, but it has many really strong scenes. And those are the ones when there is absolutely no dialogue. When George lets the images speak for themselves.

Order 66
Padmé's Ruminations
Vader and the Emperor overseeing the construction of the Death Star
Padmé's Funeral
The birth of Vader (where he gets the suit and rises)
The replica shot from A New Hope at the every end and also the small glimpse of baby Luke at Tatooine

Originally Posted by octagon

The Legend of Darth Plagueis was far and away the best part of Sith for me.

There were several other good to very good moments but that was flat out great.

Sith is such a bipolar viewing experience for me. There is the bad stuff, which is as bad as anything in the previous two movies, at times arguably worse. But then there are the good bits, like your examples above, which at their best are genuinely great. It's fascinating how I can alternate between loving it and shaking my head in disbelief just going from one scene to the next, and when it's over I can never quite sort my feelings out.

[Captain Flint]

This comes to mind every time I enter this thread.

[popeflick]

Originally Posted by BladeRunner2007

What I love about Revenge of the Sith is how great it is from time to time. It has its flaws, but it has many really strong scenes. And those are the ones when there is absolutely no dialogue. When George lets the images speak for themselves.

Order 66
Padmé's Ruminations
Vader and the Emperor overseeing the construction of the Death Star
Padmé's Funeral
The birth of Vader (where he gets the suit and rises)
The replica shot from A New Hope at the every end and also the small glimpse of baby Luke at Tatooine

To each their own: Order 66 was a huge miss and total cop out. That should have been the 3rd film, which could have been a Darth Vader feature.