Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by BillieCassin

This, to me, is the one true unforgivable sin of the PT. The major inconsistencies and plot holes between the two trilogies could have been easily taken care of - in some cases, he introduced new ones seemingly on purpose for no discernible good reason.

This seems to be a trait of Lucas as many of the SE changes/add-ons to the OT were seemingly on purpose for no discernible good reason, as well.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

(forget about all that 'Tatooine Sun' bullshit, dude just looks old, pure and simple).

Well, as someone who actually lives in a desert I can tell you there are a LOT of people 35-40 that don't look much younger than Owen and Beru circa the OT. And that's with ONE sun. So it isn't BS.


How many deserts are there in the UK?

[WhySoBlu?]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Well, as someone who actually lives in a desert I can tell you there are a LOT of people 35-40 that don't look much younger than Owen and Beru circa the OT. And that's with ONE sun. So it isn't BS.

As someone who has lived in a desert for well over twenty years, that's nonsense. The actor who played Owen was 61 in the first film (Beru was 57.)

There aren't "a LOT" of 35-40 year olds who look 60 (or a little younger) due to living in a desert. At least not in Vegas.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by WhySoBlu?

As someone who has lived in a desert for well over twenty years, that's nonsense. The actor who played Owen was 61 in the first film (Beru was 57.)

There aren't "a LOT" of 35-40 year olds who look 60 (or a little younger) due to living in a desert. At least not in Vegas.

Where I live there are a lot of ranchers, and some fruit groves and animals (horses, etc). A lot of leathery people out here. Saw someone the other day who I found out was 35. I could have sworn she was 55.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by Maggot

Original Star Wars= Space Opera, cheesy but earnest.....A product of it's time.

Prequel Star Wars= Video games made for the OCD/Asperger generation.....A product of it's time.

I've criticized the prequels to death, but I disagree that they're video games (except for the Pod race in Episode I) made for the OCD generation. If anything, they're quite the opposite, with plots being stretched out, lots of talky scenes and impenetrable plot elements like the whole trade federation thing that ten-year-olds were supposed to be able to understand and stormtroopers who turn from "good guys" to "bad guys". Also the confusion between Padme and her doppelgänger.

I think there would have been less criticism of the prequels (although not by me) if they had been more like video games. Seems to me that many of the fans who hate the prequels wanted more action and less boy, less romantic relationship and less Jar Jar.

[Arch Stanton]

Originally Posted by BillieCassin

This, to me, is the one true unforgivable sin of the PT. The major inconsistencies and plot holes between the two trilogies could have been easily taken care of - in some cases, he introduced new ones seemingly on purpose for no discernible good reason.

In any case, due to Rinzler's books on the OT, officially sanctioned by and with all the data from the Lucasfilm Archives, we know definitively that things like Leia and Luke being brother and sister, etc., or even that Vader was Anakin, were not decided until the respective films they appeared in. Anakin and Vader were two distinct characters until well into writing ESB, for example.

If he didn't even have that planned out, he didn't have the bridge between the OT and the PT planned out...in fact the PT was originally going to focus on Obi-wan, not Vader, until rather late in the game (after Ewan had been cast).

It's strange. I got an impression watching the documentaries from the prequels that he was actively putting off writing and thinking about the plot of the films. Not to turn this into a "he's just thinking of the toys!" thing, but he was clearly more interested in the set-pieces/technological things than he was about the details.

[kamphausd1]

Originally Posted by wormraper

things become MUCH easier when you ignore the PT all together...

The Clone Wars series on the other hand can stay.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by kamphausd1

The Clone Wars series on the other hand can stay.

Not only do I love The Clone Wars, I think it actually makes Sith a lot more enjoyable. Anakin wasn't that bad in Sith to begin with and Clone Wars takes even more of the rough edges off him.

I'm not a big believer in the idea that a bad sequel or remake or whatever can 'ruin' an existing movie but a good sequel can definitely add to the appeal of an existing work.

And Clone Wars was definitely a good one.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Well, as someone who actually lives in a desert I can tell you there are a LOT of people 35-40 that don't look much younger than Owen and Beru circa the OT. And that's with ONE sun. So it isn't BS.


How many deserts are there in the UK?

How did I know it'd be you who'd call me out on that? Handily enough, you missed my point anyway: to me, Guinness looks old, not 'left out in the sun' old but old old, and he doesn't exactly move like greased lightning either (the wonders of editing aside) which only adds to the creaky old geezer vibe that he gives off. I don't care if Tatooine had THREE suns, I still wouldn't buy sprightly Ewan turning into doddering Alec a mere 19 years later.

Seconded re: Clone Wars. Some superb work was done on that show.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

I've criticized the prequels to death, but I disagree that they're video games (except for the Pod race in Episode I) made for the OCD generation. If anything, they're quite the opposite, with plots being stretched out, lots of talky scenes and impenetrable plot elements like the whole trade federation thing that ten-year-olds were supposed to be able to understand and stormtroopers who turn from "good guys" to "bad guys". Also the confusion between Padme and her doppelgänger.

I think there would have been less criticism of the prequels (although not by me) if they had been more like video games. Seems to me that many of the fans who hate the prequels wanted more action and less boy, less romantic relationship and less Jar Jar.

Lucas doesn't cut his stuff in a Michael Bay stylee either, he can still put a mean action scene together without resorting to seizure-inducing camera moves & editing. Love dat pod race (though I could do without the extended version, I prefer the theatrical).

[motorheadache95]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Lucas doesn't cut his stuff in a Michael Bay stylee either, he can still put a mean action scene together without resorting to seizure-inducing camera moves & editing. Love dat pod race (though I could do without the extended version, I prefer the theatrical).

There are some pretty great action scenes in the Star Wars prequels-- even the CGI overload clone battle at the end of Episode II was pretty cool overall. At least it wasn't the quick-cutting ADD nonsense of Transformers.

Although I honestly always hated the pod race in Episode I, even back in the theatrical version. And it was the only break in the dull plot of the film until the end, which makes it even worse to me. On the other hand, it gave us a pretty cool N64 game, so...

Like someone pointed out earlier, the PT has some really good moments when the visuals are telling the story. But I think literally the only scene with dialog in all three films I thought was any good was in Sith when Palpatine is talking to Anakin about Darth Plagues. That's really all I can think of.

[Yojimbo68]

Originally Posted by motorheadache95

There are some pretty great action scenes in the Star Wars prequels-- even the CGI overload clone battle at the end of Episode II was pretty cool overall. At least it wasn't the quick-cutting ADD nonsense of Transformers.

Although I honestly always hated the pod race in Episode I, even back in the theatrical version. And it was the only break in the dull plot of the film until the end, which makes it even worse to me. On the other hand, it gave us a pretty cool N64 game, so...

Like someone pointed out earlier, the PT has some really good moments when the visuals are telling the story. But I think literally the only scene with dialog in all three films I thought was any good was in Sith when Palpatine is talking to Anakin about Darth Plagues. That's really all I can think of.

That scene is good in Revenge of the Sith because it had subtext. Most of the dialogue scenes in the prequel trilogy are bad simply because they are all exposition without subtext. There is an old saying in Hollywood and I'm roughly paraphrasing here but it goes something like "If the scene is about what it's about, you're screwed". What that means basically, is that if there is not something else beneath the surface, no subtext for the characters, it's dull and boring. I think Lucas proved that time and again with the prequels.

[BillieCassin]

Originally Posted by Arch Stanton

It's strange. I got an impression watching the documentaries from the prequels that he was actively putting off writing and thinking about the plot of the films. Not to turn this into a "he's just thinking of the toys!" thing, but he was clearly more interested in the set-pieces/technological things than he was about the details.

There is some good stuff in some recent un-official books about this, and he did leave the scripts until the last possible second. When he wrote them, it was him, alone, in a room, and no one else reviewed anything until they were pretty much shooting (except for some rumored dialogue doctoring by Carrie Fisher in the second film). Apparently, Sith was the worst - McCallum was seriously worried because it was a matter of days before shooting anyone else even saw the script.

That is completely different than how the OT was written, particularly ESB and ROTJ, where he had a small team of folks working doing story meetings for months and working through everything to maintain some internal logic. When you read through Rinzler's book, which almost is too painstaking in covering each draft after draft after draft, particularly ESB, when you look at Lucas' first draft it has almost no resemblance to the film that was made. In this way, the PT scripts were essentially still at the rough draft stage - wholly written by someone who a) admits to not being a good writer, and b) doesn't even like writing.

Basically, the myth that it was all planned out is completely the opposite of the truth, because, in fact, he didn't even have the story beats set out for the PT in advance of making each one. He started each one from scratch each time.

That's his given reason for the short-shift Padme was given in Sith - he basically had two films worth of content that was stretched out to three, and he just stretched too far because when it came time for Sith, he had to cram so much into one last film because he spent so much time grinding the gears on the previous two. Watching TPM with this in mind, you realize how essentially nothing happens in that film that matters except getting all the players to meet up and he spent the majority of that film just "playing around" in the universe (his own admission).

Originally Posted by Geoff D

How did I know it'd be you who'd call me out on that? Handily enough, you missed my point anyway: to me, Guinness looks old, not 'left out in the sun' old but old old, and he doesn't exactly move like greased lightning either (the wonders of editing aside) which only adds to the creaky old geezer vibe that he gives off. I don't care if Tatooine had THREE suns, I still wouldn't buy sprightly Ewan turning into doddering Alec a mere 19 years later.

I see your point, but you also need to remember the time period in which the films were made, and the actor himself. Guinness was only 61/62 when he filmed Star Wars. He just was an older looking man to begin with, and when you consider what being in your 60's looked like in the 1970's compared to what we see now (with less smoking, better care of ourselves, etc., particularly among celebrities/actors) there is a big difference.

I always think of the Golden Girls when this sort of topic comes up - that's what 60 looked like in the 1980's - and when you look at actresses who are in their 60's now - everyone from Susan Sarandon to, well, Susan Lucci - you see it pretty clearly.

[gregmasciola]

Originally Posted by chip75

If you use a Black & Decker at work, do you own it? The droids were just tools he used, he didn't personally own them. Plus been on Tatooine for all those years has probably seen him go through several bouts of sun-stroke.

And he'd probably been smoking a lot of longbottom leaf with all the h̶o̶b̶b̶i̶t̶s̶ jawas.

[Bob Kramer]

Man, thanks to everyone who mentioned Harmy's "Despecialized" versions of the OT. Grabbed them and wow do they look great.

[Stinky-Dinkins]

Originally Posted by Bob Kramer

Man, thanks to everyone who mentioned Harmy's "Despecialized" versions of the OT. Grabbed them and wow do they look great.

They're unbelievable. Just make sure to grab the newest ones (assuming you can burn BD's). The 2.5 MKV for SW, and 2.0 MKV for Empire, the previous versions were AVCHD and designed to be burned to DVD's - the new ones are for BD.

Originally Posted by BillieCassin

I see your point, but you also need to remember the time period in which the films were made, and the actor himself. Guinness was only 61/62 when he filmed Star Wars. He just was an older looking man to begin with, and when you consider what being in your 60's looked like in the 1970's compared to what we see now (with less smoking, better care of ourselves, etc., particularly among celebrities/actors) there is a big difference.

I always think of the Golden Girls when this sort of topic comes up - that's what 60 looked like in the 1980's - and when you look at actresses who are in their 60's now - everyone from Susan Sarandon to, well, Susan Lucci - you see it pretty clearly.

I think it has less to do with hard living back then vs. now and more to do with the fact that 99.9% of celebrities over 50 spend enormous amounts on plastic surgery these days. So, no - a 65 year old celebrity doesn't tend to "look 65" anymore. I mean, Christ, Megan Fox has had shit loads of plastic surgery already and she's not even 30. Celebrities didn't tend to get their faces pulled back, foreheads shot up with botox, faces injected with crazy amounts of fillers, etc. 50 years ago. Susan Sarandon even admits to having plastic surgery.

[theater dreamer]

Originally Posted by Bob Kramer

Man, thanks to everyone who mentioned Harmy's "Despecialized" versions of the OT. Grabbed them and wow do they look great.

Wait, what? Could somebody please give me a link (or a post # within this thread where the link is provided?) Searching the thread, I can't seem to find it, and for some reason, though a user name of Harmy comes up on search, it shows no posts.

Thank you.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by theater dreamer

Wait, what? Could somebody please give me a link (or a post # within this thread where the link is provided?) Searching the thread, I can't seem to find it, and for some reason, though a user name of Harmy comes up on search, it shows no posts.

Thank you.

That's not going to happen. The fan-edits are almost taboo conversations, you're not going to see links for them on this site. Google searches will help, but your internet provider may block the sites that they're available from.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by BillieCassin

I see your point, but you also need to remember the time period in which the films were made, and the actor himself. Guinness was only 61/62 when he filmed Star Wars. He just was an older looking man to begin with, and when you consider what being in your 60's looked like in the 1970's compared to what we see now (with less smoking, better care of ourselves, etc., particularly among celebrities/actors) there is a big difference.

I always think of the Golden Girls when this sort of topic comes up - that's what 60 looked like in the 1980's - and when you look at actresses who are in their 60's now - everyone from Susan Sarandon to, well, Susan Lucci - you see it pretty clearly.

That's all very true - look at Arnie for how a 68-year-old Hollywood icon rolls today - but it still doesn't help to bridge the gap when putting the two trilogies side by side, does it? Especially when you've got similarly aged (or older!) thesps like Ian McDiarmid and Christopher Lee jumping around like jackrabbits (via CG assistance, natch) in the movie that's designed to be subsequent to Ep IV.

Stylistically it just doesn't flow from one era to the next but Lucas didn't care. He made the prequels how he wanted to make them, and because he never considered the OT to be his fully realised 'vision' of Star Wars he kept issues of continuity at arms' length, figuring any gaps (like "your father wanted to have this when you were old enough") could be explained away by Obi-Wan being a lying old bastard. I'd still love to know what was behind Vader's comment of "Obi-Wan once thought as you do" to Luke in Jedi though, perhaps it'll be explored in the mooted Obi-Wan film or even in Rebels.

[theater dreamer]

Originally Posted by chip75

That's not going to happen. The fan-edits are almost taboo conversations, you're not going to see links for them on this site. Google searches will help, but your internet provider may block the sites that they're available from.

Thank you. When I didn't see it linked here, I feared just that. But it doesn't hurt to ask.

I see the documentary on You Tube, and I'm just blown away how much better it looks. Having a corrected color palette immediately makes it 10 x better, even before any upscale occurs.