Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Trekkie313]

Originally Posted by bobbyh64

Why would Palpatine and Vader have died?

They would've stayed away from the Endor battle and the Deathstar had Luke not confronted Vader.

[Poya]

Originally Posted by Arawn

"There is still good in him."

"Because there is good in him. I've felt it."

"It is the name of your true self, you've only forgotten. I know there is still good in you. The Emperor hasn't driven it from you fully."

"I feel the good in you, the conflict."

Even then, Hamill's performance suggested slight hesitation in his belief, like when he reveals to Leia that he's his father, even following Obi-Wan's method of separating Anakin from Vader ("I've accepted that you were once Anakin Skywalker" "Then my father is truly dead"). It makes his "like my father before me" speech more heartwarming because he finally accepts that Vader is his father. At least that's how I saw it. That gives much more complexity than Luke completely believing his father is redeemable.

[bobbyh64]

Originally Posted by Trekkie313

They would've stayed away from the Endor battle and the Deathstar had Luke not confronted Vader.

How does staying away from the Endor battle and the Death Star threaten Vader's and Palpatine's lives?

[Arawn]

Originally Posted by octagon

I'm not entirely sure what your point is.

ROTJ is not a prequel.

Originally Posted by octagon

It wasn't until decades later that the OT became all about Vader and his angst.

All that stuff was in ROTJ on the day of its release. It wasn't added "decades later".

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Luke is the hero of the saga. The PT may be *about* Anakin, but he sure as hell ain't a hero.

Luke sure as hell ain't the hero of the PT. Being the hero of the OT only makes you the "hero of the saga" if the OT is the entire saga.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Arawn

Luke sure as hell ain't the hero of the PT. Being the hero of the OT only makes you the "hero of the saga" if the OT is the entire saga.

Yeah, Abraham Lincoln wasn't the hero of the Republic because he didn't fight at Bunker Hill.

Padme actually might be the hero of the saga.

Discuss.

[Mighty Max]

Originally Posted by Trekkie313

The Rebels definitely would've attempted a rescue of their own to get Han back if Luke hadn't shown up. Given their track record in the movie, it wouldn't have ended well.

Luke did plenty in Empire, like lead the Snowspeeder assault.

Luke didn't kead the assault, and he crashed and nearly died.
The rebels lost the base and only took out, what? Two AT-ATs?

[Mighty Max]

Originally Posted by bobbyh64

Why would Palpatine and Vader have died?

Because the rebels blew up the shield generator.
Luke going with them to Endor almost blew the whole operation. The imperial commander was going to let the shuttle in. Vader only stopped it and then allowed it because Luke was there and could sense him.
Once the shield was down the Death Star II was history. Lando and Wedge destroyed it.

[TheHutt]

The trap by the Emperor was set in place way before that. I suppose Mamny Bothans was his traitor after all.

[Class316]

Anakin didn't commit these murders. It was Darth Vader. Different people

[warrian]

Originally Posted by Class316

Anakin didn't commit these murders. It was Darth Vader. Different people

We'll see how that holds up in court.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Arawn

All that stuff was in ROTJ on the day of its release. It wasn't added "decades later".

No, the stuff wasn't added decades later. The notion that the stuff was the central focus of the OT all long was added decades later.

The idea that the OT was actually Anakin's story all along and that Anakin's change of heart was the climax of the OT is revisionist.

Vader wasn't Anakin in the first film. When the first film was made Anakin wasn't dead 'from a certain point of view'. He was just plain dead.

And Vader wasn't Anakin in the first several drafts of the second film. In fact, the decision to turn Vader into Anakin wasn't even finalized until the second film was fairly far along.

So this notion that Anakin's arc was always the focus of the OT simply doesn't withstand scrutiny.

The best case you can make is that seeds of this revisionism predate the prequels. But I'm not sure that quibbling over exactly when the revisionism occured undercuts my original assertion that Vader's change of heart was not the climax of the OT.

[Arch Stanton]

Originally Posted by Class316

Anakin didn't commit these murders. It was Darth Vader. Different people

Well that's alright then!

[octagon]

Originally Posted by warrian

We'll see how that holds up in court.

You never know...

[Class316]

AHSOKA VS DARTH VADER (Star Wars Rebels S02 Final : Twilight of the Apprentice) - YouTube

Start in the 1:35 mark

Vader: Anakin Skywalker was weak, I destroyed him

Ahsoka: Then I will avenge his death

[Martoto]

If Vader got them in a tractor beam instead of allowing them to land on Endor then the shield never gets deactivated.

[rexcrk]

Originally Posted by Martoto

If Vader got them in a tractor beam instead of allowing them to land on Endor then the shield never gets deactivated.

Yup

[JoshKelhoffer]

Originally Posted by octagon

No, the stuff wasn't added decades later. The notion that the stuff was the central focus of the OT all long was added decades later.

The idea that the OT was actually Anakin's story all along and that Anakin's change of heart was the climax of the OT is revisionist.

Vader wasn't Anakin in the first film. When the first film was made Anakin wasn't dead 'from a certain point of view'. He was just plain dead.

It's always been amazing to me how little a lot of Star Wars fans know about the genesis and development of the franchise they love.

A lot of the things you mention are even in the coffee table Making Of books by J.W. Rinzler. Lucas might have had an idea to make Vader Luke's father, but he never committed to it until after a terrible draft or two of what was originally called Star Wars Chapter II. Once he did, there was a happy incident with a single exchange of dialogue in the first film --"He has too much of his father in him." "That's what I am afraid of." The original context being "That's what got his father killed."

I think what confuses a lot of people is the fable about how there was one script that was essentially all three films of the original trilogy, which had to be broken up because it was too big. Which is true. From a certain point of view.

As Lucas was writing Star Wars and getting closer to what what would eventually become the 1977 film, there was a draft that followed the first film's beats, except that Leia was rescued from the Cloud City and the assault on the Death Star included an on-ground battle with Wookies, ideas that were used for the sequels. And Lucas isn't lying when he says that he had ideas to continue the story after the original film. They just weren't the same ideas that ended up being used.

I really wish these films were given the Alien Anthology/Quadrilogy treatment and allowed to have 2 to 3 hour documentaries per film. But that is just wishful thinking. Rinzler's books on each of these films are authorized and very eye-opening looks into the making of these films. It is awesome just to see George Lucas' own hand-written notes.

[reanimator]

Originally Posted by Arawn

Vader's change of heart was the climax of the OT. That is reality.

That's actually not the case, not from the standpoint of screenwriting.

The first act of STAR WARS '77 ends with Luke Skywalker stating "I want to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi like my father." All of the adventures that follow are traced back to this one decision by Luke Skywalker -- all the way through the third act of RETURN OF THE JEDI. Luke Skywalker's quest to become a Jedi Knight forms the entire through-line of the Original Trilogy. Therefore...

The climax of the OT occurs once Darth Vader has been defeated and Luke Skywalker states "You failed, your highness. I am a Jedi like my father before me." That's why that line is worded so precisely -- to complete the journey Luke started in STAR WARS '77.

It gets confusing because the redemption of Darth Vader is the central focus of RETURN OF THE JEDI -- not the entire trilogy, just the ROTJ episode. In short, Darth Vader's turn can be seen as the resolution to the Darth Vader subplot, but not the resolution of the OT.

[Geoff D]

Yousa point is well said.

[Alan_Grant]

Well articulated, Reanimator!