Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Caseyscott]

Originally Posted by Lionel Horsepackage

I know -- because "at birth" couldn't possibly be equivalent to "very young," could it? ::le sigh::


Wait, so you need everything explained to you 100% literally, and everything in life has to line up 100% perfectly? Because that's not the way the real world works, and it's not how Lucas chose to handle this particular story-point, either. For many people, it adds a nice bit of subtlety to Leia's personal history.

Of course it could, but it makes no sense to phrase it that way if that's what you meant, or it deliberately confuscates the point of the scene. Just like with your second point, this is about bad writing versus good writing. I don't need everything to be literal, but when you are trying to engage the audience on an emotional level to create empathy, the way the scene was written with it's intended meaning was incredibly well done. In fact the entire OT was written this way, it's why they are such good films compared to the PT with its cardboard characters that no one cares about.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Caseyscott

I mean, she even says her mom died when she was very young, how can you write those lines while thinking she was died at birth? It makes absolutely no sense!!

Casey, I see where you're coming from, but clearly they were implying Leia was Force-sensitive in Jedi ("I can feel it..."), and the end of Empire, also.

I'm huge about story structure...the writing in the Prequels bugs me to no end, because all this stuff is so easily addressed with judicious plotting. Imagine a version of Revenge of the Sith where we don't see the birth of the twins at all. Treat the saga as a long form narrative. Jane Austen seems to have a better grasp on plot than Lucas. It really bugs me, this stuff isn't that hard. We don't need it, and the result is a confused audience. Storytelling is all about narrative propulsion and resolutions. We don't need to see the birth of the twins at all, because it's chapter 3 -- technically, a second act crisis.

Meh, I'll shut up.

YIKES! AND AWAY!!!

[Geoff D]

Dude, is that "yikes and away!" thing gonna become your "GOT EM!!!"?

[Caseyscott]

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

It is ONLY reaching?

When I hear people say that Lucas was "extremely lazy writing" while ignoring the awesome universe he created (which an early script outline I read actually outlines the entire 6 films in the 80's. Right??? Anybody got that??), I am put off.

The force influence is in every film. It is there when Obi Wan feels it, and there when Leia has it. If anything was "retconned" it was giving her these things like being a sister, or having the force ability when the first film never even hints at it (does it??).

Obviously things change after the story is expanded like any writer tends to do because to error is human.

I think picking on Leia's "images" is a very small thing and is easily explained using the information given in Empire.

It is like griping about Obi saying that Anakon was a great pilot when he knew him. He was, and it is obvious when it came to the pod races and his stellar ability as that pilot.

The prequels are an example of lazy writing, the original trilogy is not. I'll give Lucas all the credit in the world for the wonderful films he made, but the Prequels are a disaster in comparison, this is example is just a microcosm of their faults as a whole.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Dude, is that "yikes and away!" thing gonna become your "GOT EM!!!"?

Naah, just being silly. I'll get over it.

I'M A FIDDLER CRAB! IT'S FIDDLER CRAB SEASON!

(better ... )

Shoot Me Again - YouTube

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by Caseyscott

The prequels are an example of lazy writing, the original trilogy is not. I'll give Lucas all the credit in the world for the wonderful films he made, but the Prequels are a disaster in comparison, this is example is just a microcosm of their faults as a whole.

I don't mind opinions, but passing them off as facts is where I debate.

The prequels to me are most certainly not a disaster and the 6 films in final buray form work really well together making a much larger compelling story.

The only OT film I respect in original form is Star Wars pre Episode IV markings. The rest are unfinshed beta. The woman bug eye emperor is a prime example. You prefer that, ok, but just don't pass it off as inarguable fact.

The prequels obviously have their fans and I feel they have a great charm

After watching Carrie extras recently, I think Katz would have been a better Luke and Mark Hamil's overacting grates on my nerves much worse than Christain.

Calling Darth Maul, Christopher Lee, Ewan, any of that a "disaster" is insane. The work did by those actors was amazing and Liam established so much in practically no time.

I love that Ewan's voice was put into episode VII, and with good reason.

George Lucas I feel did a good job on TPM and it gets more enjoyable with every watch. To call the pod race and the entire film a failure of any kind is not only putting down Lucas great work, but the legions of fans that quite enjoy it.

To me the story was way more compelling in the original Star Wars because of the hint at a bigger wirld, but like a lot of horror movies, I can imagine it spelled out in all their sequels as well.

Obi Wan in ESB is overdone to me, and in some ways I would have liked to have never seen him again.

Star Wars original form > Entire 7 films.

[Mighty Max]

Leia exibited NO Force sensitivity in TESB.
Luke called to her. He knew she was there on Bespin, that Han was captured.
He didn't know Lando, not that he sided with Leia.
Luke got his ass handed to him (and his hand taken away from him )
He was using the force to try and find/feel out any way out of his prediciment.
Leia felt it (only because Luke was sending out a signal), Luke felt that that she was still around and close enough to help so he called out to her.

Leia was never intended to be force sensitive nor Luke's sister.

Think of it similar to the x-men... comics, not the dreadful movies...
Xavier can "talk" to anyone through his mind and directly into the mind.
He can't talk that way only to other telepaths.

[Caseyscott]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Casey, I see where you're coming from, but clearly they were implying Leia was Force-sensitive in Jedi ("I can feel it..."), and the end of Empire, also.

I'm huge about story structure...the writing in the Prequels bugs me to no end, because all this stuff is so easily addressed with judicious plotting. Imagine a version of Revenge of the Sith where we don't see the birth of the twins at all. Treat the saga as a long form narrative. Jane Austen seems to have a better grasp on plot than Lucas. It really bugs me, this stuff isn't that hard. We don't need it, and the result is a confused audience. Storytelling is all about narrative propulsion and resolutions. We don't need to see the birth of the twins at all, because it's chapter 3 -- technically, a second act crisis.

Meh, I'll shut up.

YIKES! AND AWAY!!!

Yeah, they say she has the force, well Luke tells her she does. There's no implication necessary, it was well written. I'm really not as hung up on this point as it seems, but It was brought up and I think it's an interesting topic because it is a perfect example of how to write a narrative and the continuity error (or inconsistencies) in Revenge of the Sith is an instructive way to illustrate why the Prequels are less engaging on an emotional level.

You bring up Jane Austen, and while there's far more room in a sprawling novel for character development than a two hour fantasy film, both Austen and the OT writers use a similar methodology to inform the audience who the characters are. Screen writers have to be more economical however, particularly in a film where there is world building and fantasy elements to explain as well. This is why that scene is so important, it takes the time to bring the audience back down to earth and allows a moment of relatable revelation in the characters. We sympathize with Leia as we can now picture her remembing her mother and we can see Luke's pain as he grapples with the situation. It's far from the worst thing the prequels did, it just does a disservice to the learned writing tactics utilized in Jedi, and I'm now realizing I wanted to bring this back to Austen to sum up my thesis but I have none of her works handy, so there's some bad writing by me.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by Mighty Max

Leia exibited NO Force sensitivity in TESB.
Luke called to her. He knew she was there on Bespin, that Han was captured.
He didn't know Lando, not that he sided with Leia.
Luke got his ass handed to him (and his hand taken away from him )
He was using the force to try and find/feel out any way out of his prediciment.
Leia felt it (only because Luke was sending out a signal), Luke felt that that she was still around and close enough to help so he called out to her.

Leia was never intended to be force sensitive nor Luke's sister.

Think of it similar to the x-men... comics, not the dreadful movies...
Xavier can "talk" to anyone through his mind and directly into the mind.
He can't talk that way only to other telepaths.

You sure about that? Yoda did say there is another?

Why would Luke call out to Leia? Why not Lando? Chewbacca? Hell the robots??? Lol

I think this is a reach. He is calling out to someone strong with the force, this was obvious.

I also think her resisting mind probe in SW is force like especially how it is written in novel.

Of course in my porno mind she resists in other ways. Ever notice in al 3 movies there is opportunity of being alone and those are adult movies in and of themselves.

ESB her "torture" is not clear, but I see some grins after she is thrown in seemingly unphased. ROJ is obvious.

[Caseyscott]

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

I don't mind opinions, but passing them off as facts is where I debate.

The prequels to me are most certainly not a disaster and the 6 films in final buray form work really well together making a much larger compelling story.

The only OT film I respect in original form is Star Wars pre Episode IV markings. The rest are unfinshed beta. The woman bug eye emperor is a prime example. You prefer that, ok, but just don't pass it off as inarguable fact.

The prequels obviously have their fans and I feel they have a great charm

After watching Carrie extras recently, I think Katz would have been a better Luke and Mark Hamil's overacting grates on my nerves much worse than Christain.

Calling Darth Maul, Christopher Lee, Ewan, any of that a "disaster" is insane. The work did by those actors was amazing and Liam established so much in practically no time.

I love that Ewan's voice was put into episode VII, and with good reason.

George Lucas I feel did a good job on TPM and it gets more enjoyable with every watch. To call the pod race and the entire film a failure of any kind is not only putting down Lucas great work, but the legions of fans that quite enjoy it.

To me the story was way more compelling in the original Star Wars because of the hint at a bigger wirld, but like a lot of horror movies, I can imagine it spelled out in all their sequels as well.

Obi Wan in ESB is overdone to me, and in some ways I would have liked to have never seen him again.

Star Wars original form > Entire 7 films.

I'm not passing anything as fact that is subjective, what entertains us is obviously subjective, but there is an established set of objective criteria for which we approach art, I don't think using that as a spring board for criticism is unreasonable. It doesn't mean something that falls outside of it is not successfull, but that's a sound place to begin a conversation. Aside from a few flippant remarks about the PT I think I've made an honest effort to back up my claims.

[Mighty Max]

Like I said, he didn't know about Lando.
He put out '"feelers" through the force and only one that he recognized gave off a "ping." That was Leia.
Maybe Chewie did too, but we don't know.
The droids certainly didn't. Nor would luke have even bothered trying seeing as how everyone ignores them.

[Lionel Horsepackage]

Originally Posted by Caseyscott

The prequels are an example of lazy writing, the original trilogy is not. I'll give Lucas all the credit in the world for the wonderful films he made, but the Prequels are a disaster in comparison, this is example is just a microcosm of their faults as a whole.

People who think the prequels are "disasters" as movies seriously need to watch more movies. There are far, far worse actual bad movies out there (we had this same discussion regarding The Godfather, Part III recently over in that thread).

Originally Posted by Mighty Max

Leia exibited NO Force sensitivity in TESB.

I facepalmed so hard after reading this, I broke my wrist.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by Caseyscott

I'm not passing anything as fact that is subjective, what entertains us is obviously subjective, but there is an established set of objective criteria for which we approach art, I don't think using that as a spring board for criticism is unreasonable. It doesn't mean something that falls outside of it is not successfull, but that's a sound place to begin a conversation. Aside from a few flippant remarks about the PT I think I've made an honest effort to back up my claims.

I think you have been overly harsh. "Extremely lazy" is,way over thevtop to me. Lucas worked hard on his creations, and while you have brought up some points I don't think you have noted the counter points.

Btw another slight indication of being strong with the force. Leia's distrust of Lando and sensing something not being right.

Obviously ROJ had more examples but I think small reveals were part of a fluid creation.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by Mighty Max

Like I said, he didn't know about Lando.
He put out '"feelers" through the force and only one that he recognized gave off a "ping." That was Leia.
Maybe Chewie did too, but we don't know.
The droids certainly didn't. Nor would luke have even bothered trying seeing as how everyone ignores them.

Luke did not ignore the droids. He used them all the time. We know he can move parts with the force. But why not a ship?

The clear answer to me is Liea demonstrated strength with the force (like with the mind probe), and Yoda spelling out cleary about there being another.

Also Jedi are resistent to mind trucks unlike the Storm Trooper in IV. Hence Leia not giving up the rebel base planet.

[Caseyscott]

Originally Posted by Lionel Horsepackage

People who think the prequels are "disasters" as movies seriously need to watch more movies. There are far, far worse actual bad movies out there (we had this same discussion regarding The Godfather, Part III recently over in that thread).



I facepalmed so hard after reading this, I broke my wrist.

The existence of worse films doesn't preclude the PT from being disasters as it's not a fixed descriptor.

I've watched about five Code Red titles in the past few months so maybe if I revisit the Prequels I'll experience clarity your referring to.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by Caseyscott

The existence of worse films doesn't preclude the PT from being disasters as it's not a fixed descriptor.

I've watched about five Code Red titles in the past few months so maybe if I revisit the Prequels I'll experience clarity your referring to.

Code Red films (that I love by the way), compared to one of the top grossing movie of all time (TPM #22 worldwide)?

I think there are a great many directors/actors/producers that would kill to have those kind of disasters.

A "disaster" is a film that doesn't make money and one that has no artistic merit.

The requels are very good films warts and all. I can understand not liking a film compared to others, but again, way harsh on the disaster route.

[Caseyscott]

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

Code Red films (that I love by the way), compared to one of the top grossing movie of all time (TPM #22 worldwide)?

I think there are a great many directors/actors/producers that would kill to have those kind of disasters.

A "disaster" is a film that doesn't make money and one that has no artistic merit.

The requels are very good films warts and all. I can understand not liking a film compared to others, but again, way harsh on the disaster route.

Well I was only referring to the artistic merit part of your definition. I do think it's fair to at least judge them against their predecessors, and I would be happy to backup my claims in that regard.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by Caseyscott

Well I was only referring to the artistic merit part of your definition. I do think it's fair to at least judge them against their predecessors, and I would be happy to backup my claims in that regard.

I guess that is where we separate, because I don't think its fair.

The originals had their own sets of warts and they had problems and fanboys (not saying you are) have a tendancy to ignore them.

I have a tendancy to relax and trust the artist and try to see what they wanted instead of pretending that my childhood vision is all that ever matterred.

Lucas has been tinkering with the films from first release.

[Caseyscott]

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

I guess that is where we separate, because I don't think its fair.

The originals had their own sets of warts and they had problems and fanboys (not saying you are) have a tendancy to ignore them.

I have a tendancy to relax and trust the artist and try to see what they wanted instead of pretending that my childhood vision is all that ever matterred.

Lucas has been tinkering with the films from first release.

We have to have some place to start the discussion otherwise they're virtually infallible and I figure the OT is the most sensible place.

I agree the OT isn't perfect either, I just think there are several areas where they excel and prequels fail.

I'm probably a fan boy, (though I only own the OT, I'm not into the books or toys or cartoons) but I believe in judging each "tinker" on its own merits. Lucas' vision was likely hampered by the usual restrictions of time and the films benefited from the creative problem solving as a result, the Jaws effect I suppose.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by Caseyscott

We have to have some place to start the discussion otherwise they're virtually infallible and I figure the OT is the most sensible place.

I agree the OT isn't perfect either, I just think there are several areas where they excel and prequels fail.

I'm probably a fan boy, (though I only own the OT, I'm not into the books or toys or cartoons) but I believe in judging each "tinker" on its own merits. Lucas' vision was likely hampered by the usual restrictions of time and the films benefited from the creative problem solving as a result, the Jaws effect I suppose.

Question have you watched the 6 films in order in final bluray form without arms folded and with someone that never saw the OT (or didn't remember). I did. After giving it a full chance with little to no expectations my mind was blown and the person with me cried when seeing Christain ghost and felt connection to entire new story.

To me that is a different experience. Anything short of final version complete with Nooooo! and digital rock isn't the artistic vision and gives the viewer a huge disservice.