Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

I am not buying this at all.

CV has probably forgotten more about film mastering than you and I will ever learn. Don't react. Listen.

[brettxwt]

I'm actually having a copy of the Despecialized editions being sent to me this very moment and will have them by the end of the week. Someone knew I was looking for them and sent me a copy of the ones you see being sold with the original theatrical poster artwork for each film. All using their most current Despecialized versions and with a plethora of audio tracks Can't wait to watch Star Wars through ROTJ with their original mono (original stereo mix for Jedi), Despecialized. It will be just like, or very close to, watching them in theaters the way people originally experienced them in all their glory. Stoked

[shinobipopcorn]

You mean people sell these things? How is the mouse not all over that?

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by shinobipopcorn

You mean people sell these things? How is the mouse not all over that?

Thy turn a blind eye to Song of the South on YouTube, and many other films and shorts.

[captveg]

Don't forget that the 3D Phantom Menace included all the changes that the 2011 BD set had, in particular CGI Yoda. Does anyone think they would have used a different source than the HD master they used for that release, especially since the 3D conversion was done in 2011?

Timeline:

2011 - Blu-ray set is prepared (including additional changes)

2011 - 3D conversion of TPM is undertaken.

Sept 2011 - Blu-ray set is released.

Feb 2012 - TPM 3D is released in theaters.

Chances are very high that the Blu-ray and 3D conversion used the identical HD master, which, IIRC, was 1080p.

[BNex99]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Those musical cues are apparently from the 70MM version and were also on the original LP soundtracks. When they were remixed for 5.1 digital for the Special Editions they used the 70MM cues rather than the 35MM that people grew up with on home video.

If the in-theater recording of the 70mm mix that's been floating around is to be believed, that's actually not true. The "Departure of Boba Fett" cue is edited the same way as in the 35mm mix, as are all the scene transitions that were tracked with "The Imperial March." The extra/alternate lines in the Special Edition aren't there, either.

[Martoto]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

Not a problem. While we are on ROTJ I'd also probably clean up the Sarlacc beak since it's some of the worst CGI in the trilogy. I saw all three of these theatrically in 1997 and even though I was born in 1982 I grew up with the OUT on VHS. I had ANH recorded off ABC I think as a Christmas Special from the early 80s. I had ESTB recorded off HBO from about 1985 and then I had the legit VHS of ROTJ. I didn't care for most of the added stuff in 1997 and I still don't.

The "quality" of the CGI tentacles and beak they put in is on a par with some of those snapchat templates.

That scene would have been enhanced by simply putting in some CG sand being kicked up from the pit. It would have masked the limitations of the existing practical effect and made it look less inert.

I don't know how they thought the stuff they used wasn't going to begin to look dated within a very short time.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by captveg

Don't forget that the 3D Phantom Menace included all the changes that the 2011 BD set had, in particular CGI Yoda. Does anyone think they would have used a different source than the HD master they used for that release, especially since the 3D conversion was done in 2011?

Timeline:

2011 - Blu-ray set is prepared (including additional changes)

2011 - 3D conversion of TPM is undertaken.

Sept 2011 - Blu-ray set is released.

Feb 2012 - TPM 3D is released in theaters.

Chances are very high that the Blu-ray and 3D conversion used the identical HD master, which, IIRC, was 1080p.

From the vfxguide piece on the 3D conversion of TPM:

"When the original DVD was released," Knoll says, "it came from scanning in the timed IP because it was the simplest thing to do. But when it came time to do [the conversion], we were going to take the movie and cut it up into 2,000 separate pieces, work on them and re-assemble it, we had an opportunity to go back to the original material. We could go back to the original film-out tapes that are a couple of generations better than what had been seen. So we figured let's do that. We made a concerted effort to collect all the bits, re-create all the dissolves and pre-wipes. So that was all pre-graded material, so we had to do all new color timing, just to have the new Blu-ray master. Then there is a device-dependent color timing that's done to compensate for the light loss that comes from stereo.

So, basically, they had to return to the 2K film-out tapes to "remaster" the movie for the 3D conversion regardless (and add whatever changes they wanted e.g. CG Yoda) and the new 1080p Blu-ray master was a natural extension from that process. Both needed new colour timing as the film-outs were intended to be graded photochemically, this was 1999 after all.

[Geoff D]

I say again: the 35mm capture of Phantom Menace seems like a natural upgrade path on paper but virtually every frame of the movie has CG VFX which was done at 2K resolution prior to film-out, so the highest quality record of the FINISHED movie exists solely at that resolution. The original camera negative exists in raw, untempered form with no CG whatsoever, so if it were to get a true 4K rebuild then that would all need to be scanned in from scratch and the CG itself would also need to be redone.

Not just re-rendered (which for 2000 shots would be costly enough!) but everything rebuilt from the ground up, as John Knoll makes it quite clear in the vfxguide article that they don't run the software packages any more that are needed to re-render the VFX. And, as Knoll points out, even if they could 'simply' re-render the VFX this isn't a completely CG piece like Toy Story (which was successfully re-rendered in HD and 3D), it's still a live action film at its core so most of those 2000 VFX shots would subsequently require extensive re-compositing with the live action once they've been rebuilt/re-rendered. Then it would all need grading yet again.

So, in essence, the entire post-production pathway for the visuals would need to be re-enacted for a 4K rebuild. Never said it was impossible, but it's going to cost a TON of money - I genuinely think they could restore the entire UOT for less - and if anyone thinks it's gonna happen any time soon I've got some magic beans to sell to you.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

CV knows more about this than you and I will ever forget. Don't react. Listen.

There are too many sheep in this world. How about having a DISCUSSION instead of blindly accepting what others say?

That and you know nothing about me. I worked with film, and I have friends that actually have theatrically released work. What does this have to do with whether something was scanned at 2K or not? In case you missed it, the Phantom Menace was a 35mm film print. Many on here have noticed the difference with the bluray because it is from film stock. Maybe it was only 2K, but I am not going to blindly accept it until I have someone that KNOWS. When someone says "I recall", I question it. I know Episode I is surely capable of more even if it wasn't scanned that way.

Attack of the Clones used a Panavision HD-900F
Revenge of the Sith used a Sony HDC-F950

Both have a 1080p resolution, so you get what you get. I have read reports of both going up to 4K, but I have my doubts that either were used that well from what I have read since both were in their infancy when used.

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Originally Posted by captveg

Don't forget that the 3D Phantom Menace included all the changes that the 2011 BD set had, in particular CGI Yoda. Does anyone think they would have used a different source than the HD master they used for that release, especially since the 3D conversion was done in 2011?

Timeline:

2011 - Blu-ray set is prepared (including additional changes)

2011 - 3D conversion of TPM is undertaken.

Sept 2011 - Blu-ray set is released.

Feb 2012 - TPM 3D is released in theaters.

Chances are very high that the Blu-ray and 3D conversion used the identical HD master, which, IIRC, was 1080p.

I will concede on this. Hey shoot me, I went with an interview from George and I thought there was more put into the scan. I guess he was speaking about man hours put into the effects? My feelings on the matter were that Episode I didn't look that good and I had all but given up on the "3D" post conversion craze...until I saw Titanic!

According to IMDB the Phantom Menace was scanned at 2K for its digital print.

It is a pity that it isn't scanned again because it is the one film that could look better.

I am not a big fan of digital in its lower form. A great example is Fear the Walking Dead compared to Walking Dead.

Walking Dead was filmed on 16mm
Fear the Walking Dead was filmed using a Arri Alexa XT which has resolution of 2880 x 2160. While some models are capable of "Cinema" 4K, boy it sure looks like crap in comparison. This "gritty" look, to me is just blurred mess.

Perhaps the same people that scanned Star Wars recently can do the Phantom Menace as well in their plans. At least we can get the best of all films if Disney won't do it.

XXXXXXXXXXX

Geoff may not see this because he calls me an "idiot" and has put me on ignore, but why does the original negative have to be re-scanned? While yes that may be nice from the perspective of getting it the best that it can be, that still doesn't change the fact that a good quality film print could yield results far better than a 2K digital scan that was done in the infancy of digital filming.

Tech has come so far, that even the take picture frame by frame has given us great results, and while people have been spewing and even advertising people sending them Despecialized editions, the truth is that a film print is where the accuracy is going to come from.

I for one like some of the changes made on the Special Edition (go back to puppet Yoda on Phantom Menace theatrical..HELL NO!), but at the same time if one wants quality, there is some that can be easily had with the right equipment.

By the way, small note for the misinformed. The CGI Yoda came before the 3D version because it was on the bluray.

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Originally Posted by brettxwt

I'm actually having a copy of the Despecialized editions being sent to me this very moment and will have them by the end of the week. Someone knew I was looking for them and sent me a copy of the ones you see being sold with the original theatrical poster artwork for each film. All using their most current Despecialized versions and with a plethora of audio tracks Can't wait to watch Star Wars through ROTJ with their original mono (original stereo mix for Jedi), Despecialized. It will be just like, or very close to, watching them in theaters the way people originally experienced them in all their glory. Stoked

The theatrical version I remember didn't have all the jittery problems and badly done paste ins.

The sound is another matter, but as far as the work itself, it was robbed from the bluray and less.

How lazy have people truly become that they not only steal, but they ADVERTISE people doing it for them(wait scratch that....the original was stolen by tampering with the original scan, so now we are 3 steps of stealing)?

[Geoff D]

Elvis: all [final] film materials for the movie were derived from the 2K digital files, they were recorded out to negative and then printed in the traditional IP/IN/print steps for theatrical release. Point being, you could indeed scan that negative or IP but you'd gain absolutely nothing in terms of resolution from it, less even than going directly from the film-out tapes, which is why they returned to said tapes when preparing the film for the 3D conversion.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Elvis: all [final] film materials for the movie were derived from the 2K digital files, they were recorded out to negative and then printed in the traditional IP/IN/print steps for theatrical release. Point being, you could indeed scan that negative or IP but you'd gain absolutely nothing in terms of resolution from it, less even than going directly from the film-out tapes, which is why they returned to said tapes when preparing the film for the 3D conversion.

I see your point.

So I guess in summary, the difference with the Star Wars print scanned independently in 4K is that we are taking about the fact that we are transporting back to a time where digital prints were not used.

In the case of the Phantom Menace the prints were derived from the digital master so therefore a zero sum difference than what was used on the bluray.

Now all that said, in order for their to be "absolutely nothing" are we assuming that there was no DNR or poor color correcting or overall processing that just plain sucks when put to bluray?

Surely we also have the fact that yes, a perfect 3D print might have elements not seen in the original theatrical print because of POSSIBLY going back to the master negative and having superior scanning tools.

I am not saying this is the case, just throwing out possibilities because I for one do not know absolutely what they did. Do you? As far as I know, the most we have to go off on is people that saw it in the short term run since it hasn't been released at home.

p.s. Never mind about all of this. The question was already answered. Other than the processing that I spoke of, all of it was probably done at the same time as was pointed out. This is futile. It just isn't getting any better.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by BNex99

If the in-theater recording of the 70mm mix that's been floating around is to be believed, that's actually not true. The "Departure of Boba Fett" cue is edited the same way as in the 35mm mix, as are all the scene transitions that were tracked with "The Imperial March." The extra/alternate lines in the Special Edition aren't there, either.

I'm strictly talking about the music cues. I'd have a hard time believing that's the 70MM version that played in 1980, since the Rebel fleet shot was altered for the 35MM version. They've been on the 2-disc LP set since the beginning in 1980.

[captveg]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

From the vfxguide piece on the 3D conversion of TPM:



So, basically, they had to return to the 2K film-out tapes to "remaster" the movie for the 3D conversion regardless (and add whatever changes they wanted e.g. CG Yoda) and the new 1080p Blu-ray master was a natural extension from that process. Both needed new colour timing as the film-outs were intended to be graded photochemically, this was 1999 after all.

Good find.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by captveg

Good find.

Wasn't the CG Yoda already on the bluray? Are we now saying that the bluray was used from the 3D process? Either they worked on it simultaneously or they did the conversion after sending the bluray to production.

Though close in release, I don't see any proof that the two aren't separate, rather my concession is going with what it is likely to be true.

I do know one thing, the 3D post conversion "craze" was going on after they likely designed CG Yoda (specifically the Lion King and Beauty and the Beast). Lucas wanted to change that for a while and I think lots of things were riding on the success of the prequels. Once things improved with Attack of the Clones it made the Episode I in need of a serious Yoda overhual.

Lets get facts straight. The bluray preceded the movie, the question is, were they truly worked on at the same time. I SAY NO!

[captveg]

Knoll literally says they are the same source in that article.

They used the 2K tapes as a source, they redid the transition effects, made the CG Yoda addition (and other small tweaks), then from that HD master concurrently sourced the 3D conversion and the Blu-ray.

This is pretty much what I suspected and initially stated.

[BNex99]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

I'm strictly talking about the music cues. I'd have a hard time believing that's the 70MM version that played in 1980, since the Rebel fleet shot was altered for the 35MM version. They've been on the 2-disc LP set since the beginning in 1980.

The recording I'm talking about does have the alternate final sequence from the 70mm. The tracked cue from "Yoda & the Force" that was added to cover the new shots in the 35mm version is not there, but the alternate take of Lando's line is.

John Williams has often included on his albums alternate cues or cues that were dialed out in the final mix of the films. The "Departure of Boba Fett" track on the original Empire LP contained the entire cue for the second part of the Luke/Vader duel, which has never been heard in any version of the film.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by captveg

Knoll literally says they are the same source in that article.

They used the 2K tapes as a source, they redid the transition effects, made the CG Yoda addition (and other small tweaks), then from that HD master concurrently sourced the 3D conversion and the Blu-ray.

This is pretty much what I suspected and initially stated.

captveg,

I missed the article. Thanks for pointing that out. My apologies.

[Chiyo_chichi]

Originally Posted by Martoto

The "quality" of the CGI tentacles and beak they put in is on a par with some of those snapchat templates.

That scene would have been enhanced by simply putting in some CG sand being kicked up from the pit. It would have masked the limitations of the existing practical effect and made it look less inert.

I don't know how they thought the stuff they used wasn't going to begin to look dated within a very short time.

I've come to disagree with much of fans preferring some cgi get cleaned up. Just like the practical effects of the OUT, I'd prefer the special editions be left alone as well. Yeah, original ANH SE Jabba looks terrible, but it's a product of 90s cg. You can try to fix it but it will never look "realistic". It's a giant slug creature, your brain will always know it's a computer generated character. From a film history point of view, leave it for what it is, terrible, early CGI that some people thought would look acceptable.

[ElvisForever]

Originally Posted by captveg

Knoll literally says they are the same source in that article.

They used the 2K tapes as a source, they redid the transition effects, made the CG Yoda addition (and other small tweaks), then from that HD master concurrently sourced the 3D conversion and the Blu-ray.

This is pretty much what I suspected and initially stated.

First of all, the video does not state the same thing as the article. I took 30 minutes out of my day to learn about this from the video provided in the article.

At 14:13 Knoll states that all VIDEO PRODUCTS (DVD/VHS/LD) came from a SCAN of the "timed IP". This is quite a bit different then the prints that were sent to the movie theaters. The IP was obviously directly from the negative and that is how the film prints were sent out.

Most theaters hadn't gone completely digital at the time of Episode I. I knew that there was something fishy about saying that a 2K digital scan quality is all that one could get and the print was made from that??!! This is a prime example where people shouldn't take internet misquotes at face value.

At 14:38 Knoll actually says that they went back to the film outtakes negatives which is a stark contrast to the 2K scans they did for video releases. Mater of fact, analog prints were made from that IP and not the other way around.

At 15:13 he stated that they EVEN had to do color timing for the bluray master. It is exactly as I suspected. The theater print were better than the bluray master and part of what was put out was influenced by this work...hell at its most basic level it is because it demanded a separate master because of the stereo image.

What is a fact is that the original analog prints were not taken from the digital video scans for home releases. They were bonafide prints made from the optical negative.

So I take it back. Go back to my first example. The film print has plenty of detail. Until someone scans it, I am not convinced otherwise.

Hell I should have just read the article closer..."when the original DVD was released...where did all those video products come from...by scanning in that timed IP because it was the simplest thing to do..."

So they obviously made a new bluray master from the negative (which most of us know), but some people are not grasping is that the 35mm film print which is more than capable of 4K resolution is BEYOND any Video products because the DVD are a down scale of the 2K digital scans.

And of course there is the obvious fact that the 3D print is not from the 2K scans but from the original negative.

Conclusion, the 3D print of Episode I is the best it can look and not the bluray.

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Originally Posted by Geoff D

Elvis: all [final] film materials for the movie were derived from the 2K digital files, they were recorded out to negative and then printed in the traditional IP/IN/print steps for theatrical release. Point being, you could indeed scan that negative or IP but you'd gain absolutely nothing in terms of resolution from it, less even than going directly from the film-out tapes, which is why they returned to said tapes when preparing the film for the 3D conversion.

This is a wrong statement. The home releases were 2K digital scans. The film was released in analog 35 mm. There was no 2K start unless it was for home release or digital movie theaters only.