Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by steel_breeze

Your opinion is certainly shared by the vast majority... but funny enough, CLONES has always been -- by far -- my favorite of the prequels. I can see absolutely everything wrong with it; every single criticism written here is right on the money... and yet, for me, the good still outweighs the bad. CLONES is actually THE prequel I'd always wanted to see: armies of lightsaber-wielding Jedi Knights fighting side by side, camaraderie between Obi Wan and Anakin, proof that Anakin was an excellent pilot, and beginning of the Clone Wars (the Battle of Geonosis is friggin' incredible). I'd go so far to say that if I were ever to do my own version of a "machete order", CLONES is the only prequel I need. Still leaves Anakin's turn a "mystery" to be revealed by Yoda in JEDI.

And the "cartoony" quality of the early-21st-Century graphics doesn't bother me at all; I love the look of the film; reminds of "space paintings" books my brother and I used to collect in the late 70's/early 80's. I dunno... SITH bothers me WAY more because of the manner in which Anakin finally turns and the last ten minutes. I think it's tough to get through those bits, and they kinda taint the whole movie for me. MENACE... well, the last twenty minutes of MENACE is amazing, but overall there's a lot more (for me) too wince at in MENACE than there is in CLONES.

Anyhoo... I dig me some CLONES. But I know I'm virtually alone in that opinion.

Your positivity warms the coal of my black heart. Well said. The movie is still an ice pick to my skull, but well said.

[Arawn]

Originally Posted by Nicolawicz

Lucas doesn't even get Star Wars

lol

[Riddler95]

Originally Posted by BNex99

I haven't really watched the Blu-rays enough to know the 2011 mixes that well, but I agree that the '97 ones are FAR superior to the '04 ones. There are some really goofy mixing decisions on those '04 DVDs.

I've watched the Blu-Rays several times and have become pretty familiar with the 2011 6.1 Mixes.

The 2011 6.1 Mix for Star Wars is a pretty big improvement over the 2004 6.1 Mix however there are still a couple minor flaws in it.

The 2011 6.1 Mixes for The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi sound like they came from the same source as the 6.1 Mixes for the 2004 DVDs but there are some minor differences.

[bobbyh64]

I used to think Attack of the Clones was the worst Star Wars film. That was before I saw Rogue One, which I now think is the worst Star Wars film. I do not understand the love for that movie at all. I found it incredibly boring with no likable characters, Darth Vader seemed very lame to me, and the CGI for certain characters' faces looked very weird. Why they shot some of them close up I have no idea. Didn't feel at all like a Star Wars movie. Just a boring, depressing, uninteresting movie.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by bobbyh64

I have a few questions, sir!

Why are digital negatives completed at 2K and not higher? I've heard of films being scanned at 4K, 6K, and 8K, so why would the digital negative only be 2K?

Cost. La La Land was shot on 35mm anamorphic, scanned at 6K but ultimately finished at 2K. It's an inconvenient truth, but it's the truth nonetheless. Most of your favourite movies from the last 15-odd years will have been finished at 2K regardless of how they were shot & scanned.

Is a digital negative the same as a DI (digital intermediate)?

I put "digital negative" in quotes as a convenient phrase because Phantom Menace did not have a digital intermediate as we know it (although it got about two thirds of the way there) but a DI does indeed fulfil this purpose. To all intents, the DI is the finished archival record of the film, 2K and all.

And why does an IP (interpositive) need to be scanned again to produce an IN (internegative)? Is there something about projectors that makes them reverse colors when projected?

It's about protecting your archival elements, of which the IP is one of them. The IP is contact printed directly from the negative (not "scanned") to create a timed positive record (this is after the Answer Print stage where the correct timing is first dialled in on the printer) but as release prints could run into the many thousands you most certainly did NOT want to be striking thousands of prints directly from the precious camera original. Films were often victims of their own success, the negative being constantly handled to create new elements and things like 70mm blow-ups were wetgated directly from the negative also.

So the IP is inverted into an IN, whereupon things like reel markers and localised captions/subtitles can be added without permanently altering the archival materials, as well as the optical squeeze for 'scope formatting on a Super 35 show, and then the thousands of positive prints are run off of those INs. Think of it as going neg->pos->neg->pos. There are stocks and methods which can bypass those steps, but they have their own issues. See below.

And is an IN lower quality than an IP? I'm assuming it is since it seems like there's a loss of one generation.

Yes, as explained above it goes neg->interpositive->internegative->release print. A method called CRI (colour reversal intermediate) was hit upon as a way to strike an internegative from a negative and bypass the IP stage, but the stock proved to be notoriously unstable for colour so this method was fairly short-lived. Indeed, several VFX shots of the original Star Wars were put out to CRI stock and by the time of the 1997 restoration several had faded so badly they were unusable, estimated to be some 60 shots in total.

[bobbyh64]

Geoff, thank you very much for taking the time to explain all that! Very consice yet detailed post. I think I'll save it in a text file for future reference.

[Scarface32]

Originally Posted by brettxwt

https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B00VF0M7QE/ref=pd_sim_318_6

Woah, what is this? Usually, I wouldn't think much of it for something like this, but I checked A New Hope and Empire and this is the only one that's labeled the "Theatrical Version". Is this legit or just the special edition?

There were theatrical versions of the a Special Edition as well.

[KenHurd]

Originally Posted by brettxwt

https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B00VF0M7QE/ref=pd_sim_318_6

Woah, what is this? Usually, I wouldn't think much of it for something like this, but I checked A New Hope and Empire and this is the only one that's labeled the "Theatrical Version". Is this legit or just the special edition?

I just played a clip from that link on Amazon, and this version has Hayden Christensen at the end instead of Sebastian Shaw. It's not the original theatrical version.

[Jakdonark]

Originally Posted by steel_breeze

Your opinion is certainly shared by the vast majority... but funny enough, CLONES has always been -- by far -- my favorite of the prequels.

[Show spoiler]I can see absolutely everything wrong with it; every single criticism written here is right on the money... and yet, for me, the good still outweighs the bad. CLONES is actually THE prequel I'd always wanted to see: armies of lightsaber-wielding Jedi Knights fighting side by side, camaraderie between Obi Wan and Anakin, proof that Anakin was an excellent pilot, and beginning of the Clone Wars (the Battle of Geonosis is friggin' incredible). I'd go so far to say that if I were ever to do my own version of a "machete order", CLONES is the only prequel I need. Still leaves Anakin's turn a "mystery" to be revealed by Yoda in JEDI.

And the "cartoony" quality of the early-21st-Century graphics doesn't bother me at all; I love the look of the film; reminds of "space paintings" books my brother and I used to collect in the late 70's/early 80's. I dunno... SITH bothers me WAY more because of the manner in which Anakin finally turns and the last ten minutes. I think it's tough to get through those bits, and they kinda taint the whole movie for me. MENACE... well, the last twenty minutes of MENACE is amazing, but overall there's a lot more (for me) too wince at in MENACE than there is in CLONES.

Anyhoo... I dig me some CLONES. But I know I'm virtually alone in that opinion.

When I first saw it in the theater it was my favorite of the prequels and still is. Most of those points you made I agree with. And I understand the issues people have, but there are those moments that really work for me. The biggest is the score, and even though a lot of was cut up and recycled the new bits are some of my favorites, especially the Obi-Wan vs Jango fight. As well as the scene itself, and the follow up asteroid chase. The seismic charge is also one of my favorite sound effects (number one is still the escape pod launch). I like the diner scene, and my best friends Grandpa was a dead ringer for Dex, talked like him and personality wise anyway, lol.

[Geoff D]

And that's just it: the ingestion of analogue information into the digital realm for extensive VFX manipulation laid the technological pathway for the completely digital post-production process that's become the standard today, as well as the wondrous things that can be done with digital restoration. On Phantom Menace Lucas was doing things that people take for granted in the modern DI, like splicing together different takes of the same scene in the computer to combine the best individual performances (David Fincher is a big fan of this).

[ElvisForever]

Weird, I feel like some posts got deleted? Particular where I thanked you for the explanation???

In that post I also talked about not appreciating the Yoda break dancing and wishing they would have made Yoda move things and not put him with the rest of the Jedi masters.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

And that's just it: the ingestion of analogue information into the digital realm for extensive VFX manipulation laid the technological pathway for the completely digital post-production process that's become the standard today, as well as the wondrous things that can be done with digital restoration. On Phantom Menace Lucas was doing things that people take for granted in the modern DI, like splicing together different takes of the same scene in the computer to combine the best individual performances (David Fincher is a big fan of this).

In some ways, that is the brave new world that scares me because it takes away from the actor having a fluid performance...warts and all.

[Geoff D]

Yeah, looks like there's been a clear-out. Oh well.

[BNex99]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

And that's just it: the ingestion of analogue information into the digital realm for extensive VFX manipulation laid the technological pathway for the completely digital post-production process that's become the standard today, as well as the wondrous things that can be done with digital restoration. On Phantom Menace Lucas was doing things that people take for granted in the modern DI, like splicing together different takes of the same scene in the computer to combine the best individual performances (David Fincher is a big fan of this).

Yeah, as much as grief as we tend to give the prequels, they did give rise to a lot of new, innovative filmmaking tech (much like the original trilogy).

Originally Posted by ElvisForever

In some ways, that is the brave new world that scares me because it takes away from the actor having a fluid performance...warts and all.

That's always been part of what editors do, though: building an actor's performance from multiple takes. But this does take that to a new level.

[Nicolawicz]

Originally Posted by bobbyh64

I used to think Attack of the Clones was the worst Star Wars film. That was before I saw Rogue One, which I now think is the worst Star Wars film. I do not understand the love for that movie at all. I found it incredibly boring with no likable characters, Darth Vader seemed very lame to me, and the CGI for certain characters' faces looked very weird. Why they shot some of them close up I have no idea. Didn't feel at all like a Star Wars movie. Just a boring, depressing, uninteresting movie.

I still haven't seen Rogue One. Just the fact that they would do that with the faces made me lose trust and interest in the director and the whole thing.

[Nicolawicz]

Well, the fact that he opted to shoot it digitally instead of on real film should tell you everything.

[Michael24]

Originally Posted by Nicolawicz

I still haven't seen Rogue One. Just the fact that they would do that with the faces made me lose trust and interest in the director and the whole thing.

CGI Leia looks a little off (she's not on screen for very long anyway, though) but CGI Tarkin looks incredible. I thought Rogue One was a tense, well-crafted and highly entertaining movie, and easily the best Star Wars movie since 1983.

[Nicolawicz]

It's just the lack of taste and class in doing it that way. It bothers me cinematically, not morally.

[stvn1974]

Carrie Fisher was still alive and approved her likeness being used in Rogue One. Peter Cushing is another story. The original contract that he signed for Star Wars could have stated that his likeness could be used in future installments or Lucasfilm/Disney came to an agreement with his estate.

But legally the estate holders of Marilyn Monroe could probably have her likeness doing porn unless it states in her will what her likeness can and can't be used for. Slippery sloap. Remember a few year back John Wayne was in some commercials for something. And then you have those Snickers commercials which Monroe was used.

[The Batman Professor]

Originally Posted by rodneyfaile

The estates of these actors are big bucks. Some have earned far more after their deaths than before. If from 1997 they went from not being able to properly animate Jabba, to being able to make an almost exact replica of Peter Cushing in 2017, just imagine what they will be able to do in another 10 or 20 years. I can see those likenesses becoming even more valuable. Be prepared to see Brando and Bogart cameos. Heck, maybe even starring roles.

I'm looking forward to a proper sequel to Lugosi's DRACULA, starring Bela himself.

[MifuneFan]

Watched a nice documentary called Elstree 1976 (via Netflix) featuring several bit part actors, and a few extras from Star Wars, and how the film changed their lives (or didn't). It includes David Prowse (aka Vader), as well as the actors who played Greedo, Boba Fett, and several others. Some interesting stuff in it that I learned, and I just really enjoyed hearing about their lives, etc..

Elstree 1976 Official TRAILER (HD) Star Wars Documentary, 2015 - YouTube