Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Hardback247]

Originally Posted by SymbioticFunction

So do you actually think The Last Jedi is just as good a film as The Empire Strikes Back?

I don't like playing favorites.

[Falaskan]

Originally Posted by SymbioticFunction

So do you actually think The Last Jedi is just as good a film as The Empire Strikes Back?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but TESB would be nothing historically without Vader's famous line. 10 seconds and nostalgia really do wonders.

[Hardback247]

Originally Posted by Deathbymonkeys

Not the way Johnson wrote it. His son was being manipulated and instead of helping him his best friend tries to kill his son and he just gives up on him instantly. Its against EVERYTHING the Luke and Han characters were.

Let me just say this about Luke's character in TLJ:

The thing is, one of the crucial rules about being a Jedi is that you must detach all emotion when tasked with killing a bad guy. Luke detached himself from emotion when he was killing Jabba's thugs, but when Obi-Wan told him to the same to Vader, just couldn't do it. When the fight comes, Luke actually DOES try to kill his own father, but he was doing it WITH emotion, not WITHOUT. An act like that, of course, leads to the dark side.

The Prequels also discuss this aspect of emotion, but they put a specific focus on fear being the emotion that could cause a domino effect towards the dark side.

In Return of the Jedi, after realizing that he almost killed Vader in anger, which would have taken him towards the path of the dark side, Luke throws his lightsaber as if to say, "If I only have the guts to kill Vader with emotion, I'm not going to kill him at all, because the only way I can would lead me to the dark side."

Unfortunately, the flawed part of the Jedi's whole "emotional detachment" philosophy rears its ugly head, when Luke is faced with his nephew, sensing all of this dark s*** in his head. When Luke describes this BRIEFEST moment of pure instinct, he's specifically referring to the old Prequel Jedi-era belief, that killing a dark side user without emotion is the best way of making sure that you don't go bad yourself. But his personal morals came poring back in. Unlike with the Vader incident, in which he almost killed him WITH emotion, he was almost about to kill his nephew WITHOUT emotion, which he realizes is just as morally screwed up! So, he ends up not doing it. It makes PERFECT sense.

[SymbioticFunction]

Originally Posted by Falaskan

I know this wasn't directed at me, but TESB would be nothing historically without Vader's famous line. 10 seconds and nostalgia really do wonders.

I wouldn't agree with that at all. Whilst it was groundbreaking in 1980, I think that a new viewer in 2019 would also rate it quite highly.

[SymbioticFunction]

Originally Posted by Hardback247

I don't like playing favorites.

[Hardback247]

Originally Posted by SymbioticFunction

I don't like ranking some movies in a series above others. That's what I meant.

[SymbioticFunction]

Originally Posted by Hardback247

I don't like ranking some movies in a series above others. That's what I meant.

That's quite unusual for a fan of a franchise to have such an attitude. Every film franchise has highs and lows and clearly not all Star Wars films are equal.

[Hardback247]

Originally Posted by SymbioticFunction

That's quite unusual for a fan of a franchise to have such an attitude. Every film franchise has highs and lows and clearly not all Star Wars films are equal.

That's just how I roll.

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by Hardback247

His son abandoned HIM. Not the other way around.

He abandoned his wife

[hanshotfirst1138]

Originally Posted by Hardback247

We never saw a defecting Stormtrooper in any of the movies. We also never had a hero like Rey before.

You mean a desert planet orphan? Nope, totally unique .

I’m half-joking of course. And I do give Abrams major credit for using the franchise’s clout to cast two relative unknowns in such a big film. I just got bored with most of the same beats-desert planet orphan, droid with secret data, the bad guy in a black mask, the planet destroying super-weapon getting blasted by X-wings.

Originally Posted by Falaskan

I know this wasn't directed at me, but TESB would be nothing historically without Vader's famous line. 10 seconds and nostalgia really do wonders.

Oh, and great cinematography, groundbreaking special effects, a witty script, iconic characters, superb set pieces, and amazing production design. But yeah, other than that, what’s to remember?

[Arawn]

Originally Posted by hanshotfirst1138

Yeah, but it’s still pretty shameless ripoff. I don’t love TLJ, but at least it did something NEW, to the point where it pissed off some people. Abrams doesn’t seem like he had an original idea in the entire film.

TLJ is also a shameless ripoff.

Originally Posted by Hardback247

There's no good rational reason for why Rose, in particular, should be getting this much hatred.

https://liusviews.wordpress.com/2018...ate-rose-tico/

Some of the hatred should be reserved for the writer of that crap article.

Originally Posted by JEDGAR1000

the cancellation of SW Resistance

Is it possible that Resistance simply wasn't intended to go any further?

Originally Posted by Falaskan

At this rate, your disgust for TLJ, which at many of your ages if likely adding to everything else that is clogging and weakening your aortic valves, is going to be beloved and heralded as the next ESB in about 10 years time.

[rexcrk]

People always say how The Force Awakens is a “rip off” of A New Hope, but I still just don’t see it that way.

I mean, obviously I see how they’re similar, but maybe my brain is just “wired” differently than most people, because while most people will say “oh, Jakku, desert planet.. ripoff!” I say “ok, it’s a desert planet, but it’s a different desert planet, which is cool, because surely Tatooine isn’t the only desert planet in the galaxy”. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And while plot beats might be similar, the characters and motivations are different.

There’s enough in that movie to differentiate it from A New Hope that I just don’t see it as the straight “ripoff” that (apparently) most people seem to see it as.

[Hardback247]

Originally Posted by Gold Ranger

He abandoned his wife

It wasn't out of spite, though.

[Porco Azzurro]

It’s funny, one of the most basic, like REALLY basic messages of Star Wars is to not give in to hate.

And yet...

[SymbioticFunction]

I don't hate any of the Star Wars films. I do however, find some of them quite mediocre. I'm especially thinking of Attack of the Clones and Solo. I think Rogue One is the best modern entry.

[Josh5890]

Originally Posted by Falaskan

I doubt blu-rays will that big in 2030 either.

[Show spoiler]I hope discs are still around by then

[Allgood]

Originally Posted by Josh5890

[Show spoiler]I hope discs are still around by then

I don't think the world will be around by then.

[Panama Jack]

Originally Posted by Gold Ranger

He abandoned his wife

Well, if the dialogue of the film is to be believed, they abandoned each other. Leia coped by burying herself in leading the Republic and Han coped by smuggling again. They both went and did what they felt they were good at to cope with something they felt they had failed at. Luke went into a self imposed exile, convinced that maybe the Jedi actually cause more harm than good.

I don't see TFA as resetting everything back to the way it was at the beginning of ANH. I see it more like what happened in Germany post WWII. We spent years and bloodshed to ultimately liberate Europe from the Nazis (the Empire), only to have Russia / the USSR come in and occupy half of Germany and establish the iron curtain (the First Order).

Just because you "win" the war and topple the regime doesn't always mean that the conflict is over and it's happily ever after. History has shown many times that sometimes removing power in one aspect just leaves a vacuum for another (sometimes worse) power to take its place.

[TN05]

Originally Posted by Panama Jack

Well, if the dialogue of the film is to be believed, they abandoned each other. Leia coped by burying herself in leading the Republic and Han coped by smuggling again. They both went and did what they felt they were good at to cope with something they felt they had failed at. Luke went into a self imposed exile, convinced that maybe the Jedi actually cause more harm than good.

I don't see TFA as resetting everything back to the way it was at the beginning of ANH. I see it more like what happened in Germany post WWII. We spent years and bloodshed to ultimately liberate Europe from the Nazis (the Empire), only to have Russia / the USSR come in and occupy half of Germany and establish the iron curtain (the First Order).

Just because you "win" the war and topple the regime doesn't always mean that the conflict is over and it's happily ever after. History has shown many times that sometimes removing power in one aspect just leaves a vacuum for another (sometimes worse) power to take its place.

This is quite literally what happens if you read the books and comics. After the Rebel Alliance secured their final victory and prevented Palpatine’s contingency (the destruction of the core systems) from going through, they signed an agreement with the imperial remnant allowing it to remain within pre-determined boundaries but basically banned their military and demanded heavy reparations. The New Republic then basically gutted their own military on the orders of Mon Monthma, and a new political struggle emerged between Centrists (who wanted a stronger central government and many of which were Imperial and First Order sympathizers) and populists (who wanted to maintain planetary sovereignty).

A third faction that would become the First Order departed for the Unknown Regions and built up their power and strength gradually in the shadows, with shadow support from the Imperial sympathizers in the Core Worlds. Despite warning signs, the Republic refused to acknowledge the new threat, which is why Leia founded the Resistance - which used military equipment given by some of the sympathizers in the populists, as well as old Rebellion leaders.

TFA and TLJ pick up right towards the end of that struggle, where the First Order finally feels confident enough to reveal itself. That’s what Starkiller Base is for - take out the Republic capitol and fleet (almost all of which was based on Hosnian Prime) in one stroke and then swiftly conquer the core worlds.

Is this explained in the movies very well? No. But the broad strokes are all there. The First Order is in the shadows and comes out in TFA, and then in TLJ Rey tell Luke that they will have the Core Worlds conquered in weeks.

[Alan_Grant]

Originally Posted by TN05

This is quite literally what happens if you read the books and comics. After the Rebel Alliance secured their final victory and prevented Palpatine’s contingency (the destruction of the core systems) from going through, they signed an agreement with the imperial remnant allowing it to remain within pre-determined boundaries but basically banned their military and demanded heavy reparations. The New Republic then basically gutted their own military on the orders of Mon Monthma, and a new political struggle emerged between Centrists (who wanted a stronger central government and many of which were Imperial and First Order sympathizers) and populists (who wanted to maintain planetary sovereignty).

A third faction that would become the First Order departed for the Unknown Regions and built up their power and strength gradually in the shadows, with shadow support from the Imperial sympathizers in the Core Worlds. Despite warning signs, the Republic refused to acknowledge the new threat, which is why Leia founded the Resistance - which used military equipment given by some of the sympathizers in the populists, as well as old Rebellion leaders.

TFA and TLJ pick up right towards the end of that struggle, where the First Order finally feels confident enough to reveal itself. That’s what Starkiller Base is for - take out the Republic capitol and fleet (almost all of which was based on Hosnian Prime) in one stroke and then swiftly conquer the core worlds.

Is this explained in the movies very well? No. But the broad strokes are all there. The First Order is in the shadows and comes out in TFA, and then in TLJ Rey tell Luke that they will have the Core Worlds conquered in weeks.

Yeah, this is nice and all but needing to read a book or other assorted media should never be a prerequisite to watching a movie.