Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by bobbyh64

I just don’t know why so many people are fine with drastic changes done to films 20+ years after they came out. Even if some of the changes make sense, that’s not how the movie happened. Perhaps if the changes occurred really early on then it wouldn’t be as big of a deal, but waiting decades is too long. When I see Hayden at the end of ROTJ, I don’t think “How sweet. He’s reverted back to his more innocent self.”; I think “That’s not what happened.” Same with the Vader “No, nooooo!” He didn’t say that. He was silent.

So how do you feel about the three versions of "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" and with the upcoming version, three versions of "Apocalypse Now"?

What you also have to remember is that people who didn't see the original Star Wars films won't know the difference and anyone born after 1975 (who would now be 44 or younger) most likely never saw the original theatrical versions in a theater. (Some of them may have seen them on VHS).

Also even on the original release, there were minor differences between the 70mm and 35mm versions.

I'm not defending Lucas because there were some changes I don't think he should have made, but most of the changes were actually just to improve the opticals. I don't know if it's still around, but there used to be a website that compared the original and SE's frame-by-frame wherever there was a change.

It also slightly boggles my mind that the some of the same people who complain about Lucas' changes go out and buy the 3D Blu-ray version of "The Wizard of Oz".

And you just know that if Disney ever does re-release the originals, there will still be minor variations that the OCD among us will complain bitterly about and curse Disney for. And by the way, if you truly want the originals, then they can't have stereo surround because the original 70mm versions were not 5.1 - they were Dolby 6-track, which was Left, Left effects, Center, Right effects, Right, Mono surround. The Left and Right effects can be sent to the subwoofer channel. But I bet if they're released with mono surround and no option for either 7.1 or Atmos, they'll be screams.

[Cook]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

So how do you feel about the three versions of "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" and with the upcoming version, three versions of "Apocalypse Now"?

What you also have to remember is that people who didn't see the original Star Wars films won't know the difference and anyone born after 1975 (who would now be 44 or younger) most likely never saw the original theatrical versions in a theater. (Some of them may have seen them on VHS).

Also even on the original release, there were minor differences between the 70mm and 35mm versions.

I'm not defending Lucas because there were some changes I don't think he should have made, but most of the changes were actually just to improve the opticals. I don't know if it's still around, but there used to be a website that compared the original and SE's frame-by-frame wherever there was a change.

It also slightly boggles my mind that the some of the same people who complain about Lucas' changes go out and buy the 3D Blu-ray version of "The Wizard of Oz".

And you just know that if Disney ever does re-release the originals, there will still be minor variations that the OCD among us will complain bitterly about and curse Disney for. And by the way, if you truly want the originals, then they can't have stereo surround because the original 70mm versions were not 5.1 - they were Dolby 6-track, which was Left, Left effects, Center, Right effects, Right, Mono surround. The Left and Right effects can be sent to the subwoofer channel. But I bet if they're released with mono surround and no option for either 7.1 or Atmos, they'll be screams.

The theatrical editions of Close Encounters and Apocalypse Now are available on bluray and 4K. Remastered and in the best quality home video is capable of. And the 2D bluray of Wizard of Oz is available. So they arent the same situation as star wars. If Lucas hadn't spent decades trying to completely erase the theatrical editions people would probably have a lot less animosity towards the special editions.

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by octagon

Wow, a lot to catch up on...



Are those really all that different? Is there really a lot of difference between something not making sense based on what you already know and something not going the way you expected?



It's been a few days since I've watched TFA so my recollections might be hazy but didn't Han die trying to save his son?

And lest you be tempted to say 'well, sure, but that was way after the fact' let me preemptively observe that doing the right thing reluctantly has always kind of been Han's bag. He reluctantly abandoned the rebels on the eve of the Death Star attack only to swoop in and save the day after a last minute change of heart and he was on the verge of reluctantly bailing on Leia and the rebels at the start of Empire. I honestly don't remember the particulars of Solo but I'm sure he was a reluctant hero who had to be dragged kicking and screaming to do the right thing in that one too.



I'm not sure what you mean by 'historically' so I can't be sure just how wrong you are here

If all you mean is that without 'I am your father' Empire wouldn't have one of those 'You're gonna need a bigger boat/I made him an offer he couldn't refuse" moments that completely permeated the popular culture for decades to come then yeah, maybe there's something to that.

But so what.

It's a fantastic movie and yeah, the reveal was a big part of that but it was hardly the only part of it. The two hours leading up to that moment were pretty freaking awesome too.



To be fair, sometimes the whats are so bad the whys don't matter.

The love scenes between Anakin and Padme in AotC come to mind. Defenders of those scenes like to go on and on about how The Creator was trying to channel courtly, formal love of an almost Shakespearean quality and the dialogue was intentionally clunky and unnatural.

To which I always respond 'that's all well and good but it just didn't work'.

I don't agree with the people who feel the same way about aspects of the ST but I don't necessarily begrudge them all their various discontents.

If this or that aspect of the ST simply doesn't work for them then that's just how it is. The whys don't necessarily trump that.



Jar Jar Binks? No, probably not. Ahmed Best? Sure, why not.

In fact, I didn't see that but I have a feeling I would have been pretty pleased watching a room full of Star Wars fans stand up and tell the guy 'screw the haters, you're among friends here'.



If your complaint was that the joke just didn't land that would be one thing. I was a little iffy on it too. I liked the idea a lot but 'hold' seemed a little anachronistic and it did go on a little too long.

But this idea that it undermines the threat of the First Order and spoils the tension seems a little much. Did Leia undermine the threat of the Empire and spoil and tension when she told Tarkin she recognized his foul stench?

Now, if you want to talk about humor undermining a threat I would suggest Han stepping on Jabba's tail.



That meme might work a little better if the Luke that said 'I can't murder my own father' didn't try to murder his own father like an hour later.

I'm just saying.



Where are you getting anger and hatred from?

Fear? Absolutely. That tracks with everything we saw onscreen. But anger and hatred? The only time we saw anything resembling hatred cross Luke's face was in Kylo's version of the story.



I sort of agree with this. I wasn't so much bothered by the fact that they don't get a happy ending. But I never liked and still don't like the way Abrams and Kasdan just had them walk away from each other.

I get why they went that way and I can live with it but I don't think I'll ever like it.



Yes, I'm sure 'pretend it never happened' is exactly how you'll respond if you don't like TROS.

And it's probably a good choice on your part because spending the next however many years saying that JJ dug a hole, RJ filled it with shit and then JJ took that shit and sculpted it into a big middle finger to the fans sounds exhausting.



Can we make it 20 please? I have a decent shot at 77 but 87 feels like a stretch.



Love means never having to say you're sorry.



Goodness Granny, what a vivid imagination you have.

Aside from Luke being dressed and having a light saber literally none of that is in the movie.



Speaking of Lucas' input, you are I assume aware that The Creator prepared some treatments for a possibly sequel trilogy. He didn't write full scripts or anything but he had some rough ideas of where he would have taken things.

And in these treatments Han and Leia had a son who turned to the dark side. Luke blamed himself for this and exiled himself to an island on a remote planet.

Does any of this sound familiar?

Jj and Kennedy threw out the treatments.
Those outlines are post Lucas.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Gold Ranger

Jj and Kennedy threw out the treatments.
Those outlines are post Lucas.

No, all of these things are from Lucas' treatments.

Leia and Han having a kid that turns to the dark side.

Luke blaming himself and going into self-imposed exile on the island with the first Jedi temple.

Luke being drawn out of that self-imposed exile by a plucky, young female needing training.

Palpatine even made it into the treatments.

The Creator had all of this in his treatments for his version of the sequel trilogy.

[stvn1974]

Originally Posted by octagon

No, all of these things are from Lucas' treatments.

Leia and Han having a kid that turns to the dark side.

Luke blaming himself and going into self-imposed exile on the island with the first Jedi temple.

Luke being drawn out of that self-imposed exile by a plucky, young female needing training.

Palpatine even made it into the treatments.

The Creator had all of this in his treatments for his version of the sequel trilogy.

Lucas also created Jar Jar, midichloreans and couldn't remember half of what had happened in the OT when making the Prequels. Just because what Lucas had planned was going to be awful doesn't excuse Kennedy, Abrams and Johnson.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

Lucas also created Jar Jar, midichloreans and couldn't remember half of what had happened in the OT when making the Prequels. Just because what Lucas had planned was going to be awful doesn't excuse Kennedy, Abrams and Johnson.

Definitely not but it does rather significantly undercut the idea that the new crowd totally ditched all The Creators ideas and it completely trashes the idea that these awful things aren't merely awful but are an affront to Star Wars itself.

The Creator also wanted to the ST to explore the microbiotic world of the Whills.

That would have very likely been somewhere between awful and excruciatingly awful. And I wouldn't have been shy about saying so had it been.

But I don't think I could have said with a straight face that Lucas - no matter what I thought of his story choices - was shitting all over Star Wars.

Even for me that seems a little much.

[Alan_Grant]

Originally Posted by Panama Jack

Must be tough to be so hyper-critical that you can’t just enjoy the movies.

Yeah, Good point. Except I like the OT, TPM/ROTS, R1, and Solo was sporadically interesting. You were saying?

[mediocore]

Originally Posted by Fnord Prefect

Who mentioned "true" and "real" fans? I simply stated my opinion and that of my friends.

You painted your argument as that of fact, and that NOBODY was excited and everyone thinks the same as you and your friends.

Now, if you had just said "I'm not excited, the people I know are off the Star Wars train, but good for those of you who are excited," that would've been different. Instead, you pretended it is fact that nobody likes Star Wars anymore because your feelings on it have soured.

[shinobipopcorn]

Easiest way to reconcile it is just to think of the Disney sequel trilogy as the fanfictions (or legends or whatever) with the most money. Then you can stay in OT land and just pretend it never happened.

"Thanks to denial, I'm immortal."

[bobbyh64]

Originally Posted by Indiana Jonezzz...

Yes, I’ve heard all this. IMO, OT Luke would never consider doing something like this, not after his character arc is complete in ROTJ.

I think Luke would’ve sensed the visions in Ben, and asked for guidance from Yoda, Obi and even Anakin. Then he could’ve spoken to Leia about Ben, and then spoken to Ben properly. But I don’t understand how it even got this far in the first place, as Luke had said he sensed the darkness growing in Ben. So why didn’t he do something about it earlier? What exactly was he doing while he sensed this darkness growing?

Yeah, I don’t believe Luke would act that way. Even if that hut scene was the first time Luke sensed darkness in Ben, why ignite his lightsaber like he’s about to kill him right then and there? It’s not like Ben was about to do something catastrophic right then. He was just sleeping, so Luke had plenty of time to think about what to do. This isn’t really similar to the scene in ROTJ with Vader. In that scene Luke had to act right away. Whether or not his anger at Vader was justified, he didn’t have the luxury of having time to think things through, which he did have in the scene in Ben’s hut.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by bobbyh64

Yeah, I don’t believe Luke would act that way. Even if that hut scene was the first time Luke sensed darkness in Ben,...

It wasn't. Luke told Rey that he sensed the darkness building in Ben prior to going into his hut that night.

That's why he went into Ben's hut that night.

Originally Posted by bobbyh64

...why ignite his lightsaber like he’s about to kill him right then and there? It’s not like Ben was about to do something catastrophic right then. He was just sleeping, so Luke had plenty of time to think about what to do.

If you believe Luke, Luke's initial reaction to learning that Ben was already lost to the dark was - in Luke's words - the 'briefest moment of pure instinct'. He foresaw all the evil shit Ben was going to do and his initial reaction was to whack him before he could do any of it.

Why didn't he think about it and have second thoughts about whacking his sleeping nephew? He did. A moment later.

And that - not for nothing - is why Ben is still alive.

But that comtemplative 'whoa, do I really want to whack my sleeping nephew' wasn't his first reaction. His first reaction was to reflexively snuff out a threat to - again, in Luke's words - all he held dear.

A reflex he - and maybe this is just me cutting Luke a little slack - appeared to later regret.

Originally Posted by bobbyh64

This isn’t really similar to the scene in ROTJ with Vader. In that scene Luke had to act right away.

No he didn't. Vader wasn't threatening Luke with immediate harm. Well, he was but that wasn't what pushed Luke over the edge. What pushed Luke over the edge was the idea that Vader would turn his sister.

Originally Posted by bobbyh64

Whether or not his anger at Vader was justified, he didn’t have the luxury of having time to think things through, which he did have in the scene in Ben’s hut.

Sure he did. Luke didn't have to respond to some hypothetical future threat to Leia. He could have stuck to his guns and refused to engage Vader. That was his whole plan going in, remember? That he wouldn't engage Vader and give the Emperor his victory?

He could have stuck to that plan. He could have trusted Leia not to turn to the dark side.

But he didn't. He reacted emotionally. Vader posed a potential threat to someone he loved and he went postal on the person posing that potential threat.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, mind you.

But the Luke we saw in Ben's hut wasn't all that different from the Luke that threw a pretty savage beatdown on his own father thirty-some years ago.

Well, except for the not actually going through with the beatdown part.

That was new.

[CreasyBear]

Originally Posted by octagon

No, all of these things are from Lucas' treatments.

Leia and Han having a kid that turns to the dark side.

Luke blaming himself and going into self-imposed exile on the island with the first Jedi temple.

Luke being drawn out of that self-imposed exile by a plucky, young female needing training.

Palpatine even made it into the treatments.

The Creator had all of this in his treatments for his version of the sequel trilogy.

Source?

[Arawn]

Originally Posted by stvn1974

couldn't remember half of what had happened in the OT

nyuk nyuk

Originally Posted by stvn1974

midichloreans

Not everyone has equal ability to use the Force. Ask someone who can remember what happened in the OT.

[bobbyh64]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

So how do you feel about the three versions of "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" and with the upcoming version, three versions of "Apocalypse Now"?

I don’t care since all versions are available. However, I’d support an additional version of Apocalypse Now that removes/replaces the scene where they kill the cow since I’m against filming real animals being killed in movies.

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

What you also have to remember is that people who didn't see the original Star Wars films won't know the difference and anyone born after 1975 (who would now be 44 or younger) most likely never saw the original theatrical versions in a theater. (Some of them may have seen them on VHS).

I don’t know how people wouldn’t know the difference. Do they really think all that CGI was created during the late 70s/early 80s?

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

Also even on the original release, there were minor differences between the 70mm and 35mm versions.

I'm not defending Lucas because there were some changes I don't think he should have made, but most of the changes were actually just to improve the opticals. I don't know if it's still around, but there used to be a website that compared the original and SE's frame-by-frame wherever there was a change.

It also slightly boggles my mind that the some of the same people who complain about Lucas' changes go out and buy the 3D Blu-ray version of "The Wizard of Oz".

The people who bought the 3D Wizard of Oz are also capable of buying the original version.

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

And you just know that if Disney ever does re-release the originals, there will still be minor variations that the OCD among us will complain bitterly about and curse Disney for. And by the way, if you truly want the originals, then they can't have stereo surround because the original 70mm versions were not 5.1 - they were Dolby 6-track, which was Left, Left effects, Center, Right effects, Right, Mono surround. The Left and Right effects can be sent to the subwoofer channel. But I bet if they're released with mono surround and no option for either 7.1 or Atmos, they'll be screams.

It would be nice to have the different versions of the original audio but if they make a 5.1 that’s faithful to the original then I’d be fine with that. And if they also included the original mono that would be even better.

[bobbyh64]

Originally Posted by octagon

It wasn't. Luke told Rey that he sensed the darkness building in Ben prior to going into his hut that night.

That's why he went into Ben's hut that night.

I know. I meant that as a hypothetical. I probably should’ve said “Even if that had been” instead of “Even if that was...”

My point was that even if Luke had been caught off guard and had no idea Ben had darkness growing in him, I’d still find his “briefest moment of pure instinct” to be out of character and/or a very weird reaction since there was no immediate threat. I find igniting his lightsaber to be no different from cocking a gun.

Originally Posted by octagon

If you believe Luke, Luke's initial reaction to learning that Ben was already lost to the dark was - in Luke's words - the 'briefest moment of pure instinct'. He foresaw all the evil shit Ben was going to do and his initial reaction was to whack him before he could do any of it.

Why didn't he think about it and have second thoughts about whacking his sleeping nephew? He did. A moment later.

And that - not for nothing - is why Ben is still alive.

But that comtemplative 'whoa, do I really want to whack my sleeping nephew' wasn't his first reaction. His first reaction was to reflexively snuff out a threat to - again, in Luke's words - all he held dear.

A reflex he - and maybe this is just me cutting Luke a little slack - appeared to later regret.

I think an initial reaction that would be more in line with Luke’s character would be to first try to help him and believe that there’s still good in him. I don’t buy that Luke would have a brief thought of actually killing his nephew before anything went down. The fact that he ignites the saber while staring at Ben is what seals the deal for me.

Originally Posted by octagon

No he didn't. Vader wasn't threatening Luke with immediate harm. Well, he was but that wasn't what pushed Luke over the edge. What pushed Luke over the edge was the idea that Vader would turn his sister.

Well, at any moment the emperor could’ve subdued or killed Luke, which would’ve prevented him from being able to defend his sister.

Originally Posted by octagon

Sure he did. Luke didn't have to respond to some hypothetical future threat to Leia. He could have stuck to his guns and refused to engage Vader. That was his whole plan going in, remember? That he wouldn't engage Vader and give the Emperor his victory?

He could have stuck to that plan. He could have trusted Leia not to turn to the dark side.

But he didn't. He reacted emotionally. Vader posed a potential threat to someone he loved and he went postal on the person posing that potential threat.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, mind you.

The fact that Luke was being confronted by Vader and the emperor is more of a reason to react emotionally than if he found them sleeping in huts without ever having done anything evil yet. So I agree there was nothing wrong with the way he acted. It makes total sense. If he had waited it out and continued with his original plan he might’ve ended up dead with his friends killed and sister potentially turned (unlikely) or killed as well. He has to react to things that are being done and said because they’re actually happening, whereas nothing happened in the hut scene with Ben.

Originally Posted by octagon

But the Luke we saw in Ben's hut wasn't all that different from the Luke that threw a pretty savage beatdown on his own father thirty-some years ago.

Well, except for the not actually going through with the beatdown part.

That was new.

There’s a basic similarity I guess but I contend that they’re vastly different because in the ROTJ scene he’s reacting to threats made by Vader and the emperor whereas with Ben he reacted to something he saw that hasn’t happened yet and might not happen since no one can predict the future with certainty, which Luke knows since Yoda taught him that. The part that bothers me is Luke igniting his saber while standing over a sleeping Ben in his hut. If it was merely a thought Luke had with no “briefest moment of pure instinct” then I’d be much more okay with it. But of course that would’ve resulted in a vastly different movie.

[madridista8700]

Thought I’d share these here since a lot of folks are bashing the artwork of the upcoming re-releases.

I just finished these up and all are readily available to download on hirescovers.net I have 4K UHD versions of all as well, and will upload those once announced. This collection will also feature all of Clone Wars and Rebels, but probably not before the end of the year.

[Indiana Jonezzz...]

Originally Posted by Hardback247

Is any of that REALLY all that important to know?

Considering the events of the ST are set in motion because Ben turned to the darkside, and Luke failed him, I think the first 2 things are really important to have a better understanding of.

[Jar Jar Stinks]

Originally Posted by madridista8700

Thought I’d share these here since a lot of folks are bashing the artwork of the upcoming re-releases.

I just finished these up and all are readily available to download on hirescovers.net I have 4K UHD versions of all as well, and will upload those once announced. This collection will also feature all of Clone Wars and Rebels, but probably not before the end of the year.

[Show spoiler]

Awesome job! They look great! I imagine you had to go through a lot of photos to locate appropriate images for those covers.

I'm not crazy about that image of Luke for "A New Hope." I have to imagine there's a better one out there. Also, the crop on the Vader photos looks a little strange. I like the idea of the bottom middle placement, which frames his helmet, but maybe don't crop it so closely.

[rexcrk]

Originally Posted by madridista8700

Thought I’d share these here since a lot of folks are bashing the artwork of the upcoming re-releases.

I just finished these up and all are readily available to download on hirescovers.net I have 4K UHD versions of all as well, and will upload those once announced. This collection will also feature all of Clone Wars and Rebels, but probably not before the end of the year.

[Show spoiler]

I totally dig these! I just love how uniform they are.

[Alan_Grant]

Looks good! Simple but effective.