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Gary Kurtz nearly wrecked Empire's production letting Kersh over shoot leading to the budget ballooning and going way over schedule and went behind Lucas' back.
Kersh wasn't "overshooting." He was maybe slow and methodical, but there were a lot of production issues with the film.
From Secret History of Star Wars:
Quote:
Filming would be delayed when Stanley Kubrick’s The Shining accidentally burned down an entire stage, leaving sixty-four sets to be divided into seven stages; In Norway, huge storms left the crew trapped in their hotel; production designer and second-unit director John Berry would unexpectedly die during production..
The film was more logistically complicated than anyone had anticipated, and a string of bad fortune, combined with Kershner’s desire to shoot the material slowly and methodically, resulted in massive management breakdowns.
..Kershner explains the madness of Empire Strikes Back:
“George also came over once when I was shooting the X-wing being pulled out of the water and moving across the swamp, based on the magic power of our little man. It had taken some time to set up, a few hours actually, and now we did the shot, and the haze was right— because we had the set closed off so that you actually had clouds hanging—and then the ship came out of the water. It looked beautiful, and there was moss and seaweed, and the water is dripping off, and suddenly the two wings just collapsed.
I felt so badly for George, because I knew it was his money. I said, ‘What happened?’ And they said, ‘Well, we didn’t realize it wasn’t waterproof, and all the wings are wood, and they couldn’t take all the weight.’ I said, ‘Now you tell me.’ It took hours to rebuild it—they put in structural things and a little steel. Ten hours to do the shot, and it was maybe six seconds…But you know, when I came to the swamp set, it wasn’t ready, so while they were working on one part of it, I’d start shooting another part…While we were lighting, they were banging away with hammers and pulling things in place. Also, people were sliding and slipping into the water, and we had a couple of broken arms…sometimes I had to wear a gas mask, because we had so much smoke pumped into the set, and I stood there for twelve hours a day…so I started getting ill, and they gave me a gas mask with a microphone inside, so I could talk to everybody.
…It sounds like fun, but it wasn’t. It was a hell of an experience—and it went on a long time, unfortunately. I once called George and said, ‘George, it’s taking a little longer than we thought. Do you want me to take some pages out of the script or, you know, what the hell can we do?’ And he said, ‘Don’t do anything, just keep shooting.’ Those were his words. And that’s, of course, the one thing you want to hear.”
So if George was upset with how slow the production was going, he wasn't telling that to Kershner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest Rister
"It doesn't have to be that good."
-- George Lucas, to Kurtz, on Empire...if you believe Kurtz.
One of the arguments that I had with George about Empire was the fact that he felt in the end, he said, we could have made just as much money if the film hadn't been quite so good, and you hadn't spent so much time. And I said, ‘But it was worth it!’
And Lucas's own quotes, sourced from Skywalking: The Life and Films of George Lucas, by Dale Pollock.
Quote:
“Kasdan’s main criticism was that Lucas glossed over the emotional content of a scene in his hurry to get to the next one,” Pollock writes, and Gary Kurtz had similar concerns. Lucas’ response to these criticisms was characteristic of his storytelling philosophy: “Well, if we have enough action, nobody will notice.” [page 211]
Quote:
It looks pretty because Kersh took a lot of time to do it,” Lucas states of Empire. “It’s a great luxury that we really couldn’t afford. And ultimately it doesn’t make that much difference…It was just a lot better than I wanted to make it.” [page 217]
Quote:
“I never got on Kersh about the fact that he was over schedule and putting a great burden on me and my life,” Lucas admits. “Everything I owned was wrapped up in that damn movie. If he blew it, I lost everything.” [page 219]
Lucas' comments about the dialog just don't make sense, because that level of wooden, robotic acting was not in the original films. Okay, there's that guy at the beginning of Empire that does a weak line-reading of "two fighters against a star destroyer?" but for the most part the cast were able to make it work. In the prequels, it's just terrible beyond words. I remember reading a review once when The PhantomMenace came out, and the writer commented something along the lines of "it's like Lucas is just doing every scene in one take and moving on regardless of how it turns out."
And I never bought his "it's a style" comments about Attack of the Clones, either. There's no "style" to having a love-story where the leads recite bad dialog and have no chemistry. That's not an acting/writing decision, that's just bad filmmaking.
Lucas' comments about the dialog just don't make sense, because that level of wooden, robotic acting was not in the original films. Okay, there's that guy at the beginning of Empire that does a weak line-reading of "two fighters against a star destroyer?" but for the most part the cast were able to make it work. In the prequels, it's just terrible beyond words. I remember reading a review once when The PhantomMenace came out, and the writer commented something along the lines of "it's like Lucas is just doing every scene in one take and moving on regardless of how it turns out." .
Thank you. Exactly correct. Holy Crap, He's Ed Wood {and that may insult Ed Wood}:
Lucas' comments about the dialog just don't make sense, because that level of wooden, robotic acting was not in the original films. Okay, there's that guy at the beginning of Empire that does a weak line-reading of "two fighters against a star destroyer?" but for the most part the cast were able to make it work. In the prequels, it's just terrible beyond words. I remember reading a review once when The PhantomMenace came out, and the writer commented something along the lines of "it's like Lucas is just doing every scene in one take and moving on regardless of how it turns out."
And I never bought his "it's a style" comments about Attack of the Clones, either. There's no "style" to having a love-story where the leads recite bad dialog and have no chemistry. That's not an acting/writing decision, that's just bad filmmaking.
Somehow, some way, Natalie Portman seems like a terrible actress in the SW prequels. That's pretty much all I've taken away from those movies.
Somehow, some way, Natalie Portman seems like a terrible actress in the SW prequels. That's pretty much all I've taken away from those movies.
That's actually why I always thought it was a bit unfair to trash the actors. Natalie Portman was terrible in the prequels and she went on to win an Oscar. It's also why I'm really interested in seeing Hayden return in the Obi Wan series, I really want to see how he does under different conditions.
That's actually why I always thought it was a bit unfair to trash the actors. Natalie Portman was terrible in the prequels and she went on to win an Oscar. It's also why I'm really interested in seeing Hayden return in the Obi Wan series, I really want to see how he does under different conditions.
Yeah, he'll do better without being under Lucas' constant barrage of suggestions and corrections.
That's actually why I always thought it was a bit unfair to trash the actors. Natalie Portman was terrible in the prequels and she went on to win an Oscar. It's also why I'm really interested in seeing Hayden return in the Obi Wan series, I really want to see how he does under different conditions.
I will admit, Ewan McGregor was absolutely fantastic. I think he's an underappreciated actor anyway, but he was damn near perfect in the prequels. I'm not sure how he was able to shine while just about everybody else was so blah, but he did.
I will admit, Ewan McGregor was absolutely fantastic. I think he's an underappreciated actor anyway, but he was damn near perfect in the prequels. I'm not sure how he was able to shine while just about everybody else was so blah, but he did.
That's because he was channeling Alec Guinness. There was an interview he did some time between II and III where he was asked about his character and McGregor said he studied Guinness' mannerisms not only in the OT, but also in other films.
Yeah, I definitely notice how the older, more experienced actors were able to handle the material a bit better. Ewan McGreggor was good, as was Ian McDiarmid, Liam Neeson, and Christopher Lee. The exception there I'd say was Samuel L. Jackson, who I thought was pretty stiff and awkward. It's quite an achievement I guess to make Samuel L. Jackson wooden and without his usual on-screen charisma.
But imagine if in the original Star Wars, Alec Guiness, Peter Cushing, and David Prowse/James Earl Jones were great but the three leads were terrible and their group chemistry didn't work at all. That's how the prequel-trilogy comes off to me.
Lucas' comments about the dialog just don't make sense, because that level of wooden, robotic acting was not in the original films. Okay, there's that guy at the beginning of Empire that does a weak line-reading of "two fighters against a star destroyer?" but for the most part the cast were able to make it work...
Lucas has always had trouble writing dialogue. The early drafts of Star Wars had bad dialogue, to the point that Lucas hired two screenwriters to do a polish on the script, and Mark Hamill refused to do some lines.
From Secret History of Star Wars, quotes taken from Making of Star Wars by J.W. Rinzler:
Quote:
Lucas followed up the fourth draft with a revision that focused on character and dialog, and smoothing out scenes. This was accomplished mainly by his friends: Gloria Katz and Willard Huyck came to England and polished up the fourth draft, adding humor, rewriting dialog and humanising the characters, amounting to about thirty percent of the dialog by Lucas’ estimate. “Just before I started to shoot I asked them to help me rework some of the dialog,” he says. “When I’d finally finished the screenplay, I looked at it and wasn’t happy with the dialog I had written. Some of it was all right, but I felt it could be improved, so I had Bill and Gloria help me come up with some snappy one-liners.”
Also in Secret History of Star Wars, quoted from a 1977 interview “The Morning of the Magician” by Clair Clouzqt.
Quote:
You didn’t work with screenwriters?
At the end I had some friends come to England to do some last-minute rewriting when we were just about to shoot.
....According to the case, I had this person or that person read it. Coppola read three versions, while the friends I invited to England to polish up the dialog saw only the final version.
For ESB and ROTJ, Lucas had Lawrence Kasdan writing the actual final screenplays.
So the prequels were the first time Lucas was writing solo again since the first Star Wars, and it seems he didn't even get feedback or ask anyone to polish up the dialog.
All of the dialogue in Star Wars and American Graffiti works, so I don't know that the problem with the prequels is that the dialogue is soooooo bad as that the dialogue doesn't concern Lucas anymore in the way that the visuals and music do. All of the actors in the prequels (granted, Jake Lloyd's inexperience) are fine but their interactions in I and II lack the immediacy that III has (granted it's stiltedness) and it's clear to me that that movie was what interested him and he was making the others to get to it. I like the performances in III quite a bit on top of that. It's clear that dialogue just isn't his angle. I tend to look at the strengths of all of them rather than dwell on what doesn't work, but that' my approach to all movies. I think it's particularly interesting that non-English speaking countries don't have the hang-ups about the prequels that America has.
Lucas started out as a guerilla filmmaker, shooting fast, with few takes and little money. It's in his nature as a filmmaker. He knows that he just needs to get enough footage to be able to fix whatever issues occur in the editing room and if you look at his films, that is absolutely true. American Graffiti, if you just objectively look at the footage, could have been a disaster, but Lucas made that film in the editing room and it works beautifully.
Similarly, Lucas can write dialogue. American Graffiti's naturalistic dialogue is perfect for that film. Would that dialogue be perfect for Star Wars, a throwback to 30's serials where stilted acting and dialogue was the name of the game? No. Anyone who can't see the purposefully stiff acting in Episodes 4-6 need to remove the nostalgia goggles. The way the dialogue is written informs the acting and the performance that Lucas wanted. And that holds true to the Prequels as well, which is why people generally like the villains, who are given more flamboyance, and the mentors, like Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, who are wise and hardened through experience, while the young characters like Anakin and Amidala typically come as more stiff, unsure and still trying to find their place in the galaxy.
Last edited by CreasyBear; 12-18-2020 at 12:37 PM.
Yes, we get it. You hate George with a burning passion.
Jeez, and people call those who dislike TLJ "toxic".
Ah, gotcha. It's ok for forum members to complain incessantly about cover art, No slip covers, no special features or a mass of other crap, but when someone feels honestly slighted by a person slaughtering a franchise they care about, those people should shut up.
Lucas started out as a guerilla filmmaker, shooting fast, with few takes and little money. It's in his nature as a filmmaker. He knows that just needs to get enough footage to be able to fix whatever issues occur in the editing room and if you look at his films, that is absolutely true. American Graffiti, if you just objectively look at the footage, could have been a disaster, but Lucas made that film in the editing room and it works beautifully.
Similarly, Lucas can write dialogue. American Graffiti's naturalistic dialogue is perfect for that film. Would that dialogue be perfect for Star Wars, a throwback to 30's serials where stilted acting and dialogue was the name of the game? No. Anyone who can't see the purposefully stiff acting in Episodes 4-6 need to remove the nostalgia goggles. The way the dialogue is written informs the acting and the performance that Lucas wanted. And that holds true to the Prequels as well, which is why people generally like the villains, who are given more flamboyance, the mentors, like Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, wise and hardened through experience, while the young characters like Anakin and Amidala typically come as more stiff, unsure and still trying to find their place in the galaxy.
All of the dialogue in Star Wars and American Graffiti works, so I don't know that the problem with the prequels is that the dialogue is soooooo bad as that the dialogue doesn't concern Lucas anymore in the way that the visuals and music do. All of the actors in the prequels (granted, Jake Lloyd's inexperience) are fine but their interactions in I and II lack the immediacy that III has (granted it's stiltedness) and it's clear to me that that movie was what interested him and he was making the others to get to it. I like the performances in III quite a bit on top of that. It's clear that dialogue just isn't his angle. I tend to look at the strengths of all of them rather than dwell on what doesn't work, but that' my approach to all movies. I think it's particularly interesting that non-English speaking countries don't have the hang-ups about the prequels that America has.
III was definitely better, like he was wrapping things up and directed with maybe slightly more gusto. I still think the story falls apart by the end, but he actually has some decent comradery with Anakin and Obi Wan, and there's even some emotional beats that actually work.
Since you mentioned Non-English speaking countries, here's a funny experiment I did once-- watch some of the really terrible scenes in Episode II, like the fireplace scene, but switch the audio to French with English subtitles and pretend you're watching a foreign movie. It actually plays out better!
Lucas' comments about the dialog just don't make sense, because that level of wooden, robotic acting was not in the original films. Okay, there's that guy at the beginning of Empire that does a weak line-reading of "two fighters against a star destroyer?" but for the most part the cast were able to make it work. In the prequels, it's just terrible beyond words. I remember reading a review once when The PhantomMenace came out, and the writer commented something along the lines of "it's like Lucas is just doing every scene in one take and moving on regardless of how it turns out."
And I never bought his "it's a style" comments about Attack of the Clones, either. There's no "style" to having a love-story where the leads recite bad dialog and have no chemistry. That's not an acting/writing decision, that's just bad filmmaking.
1. The Prequels were set in another time and place though. And Lucas wanted dialogue and style of that to be like very, very early American cinema.
2. Anakin was on a backwater as a slave and then basically a monk. He was never gonna talk and romance in the style of Han Solo. And Padme became a queen at 14 and had to have a very wooden, regal style to pull that off and that position also isolated her a bit and then she was right into major politics.
3. If you took a tape recorder and secretly recorded things people said to each on park benches at bar counters etc. believe me it's often nothing like the typical Hollywood romance dialogue.
For ESB and ROTJ, Lucas had Lawrence Kasdan writing the actual final screenplays.
that's not really true, after they couldn't use the original ESB screenplay (if you read it it just doesn't sound like SW at all and the dialogue just doesn't fit the characters or genre or anything) Lucas rushed in and wrote the entire ESB screenplay but being in a rush he did bring in Kasdan to then help as well. But the main core screenplay was already there before Kasdan came in. And it's not like all the main lines people think of were Kasdan polishes, quite many of the famous lines were already in the Lucas original drafts exactly as they are in the movie. Lucas appears with no screen credit for the script because he wanted to honor Leigh Brackett who had tragically and as a special thanks to Kasdan for coming aboard last second and helping him out and gave sole official credit to them as honor and thanks.
for ROTJ they worked together throughout on the script
Quote:
So the prequels were the first time Lucas was writing solo again since the first Star Wars, and it seems he didn't even get feedback or ask anyone to polish up the dialog.
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