Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[peschi]

Originally Posted by Narcissus

4K88 Update - Reel 6 at 56%

you mean 4k80

[Narcissus]

Originally Posted by peschi

you mean 4k80

Repaired.

[Jay G.]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Well I can speak for my team. They are rolling their eyes.

Any black people in your team?

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Jay G.

Any black people in your team?

The majority of them are actually.
And they hate it when non-black people are "outraged" on their behalf.

[Takeshi666]

You mean like when Disney changes the name of Boba Fett's ship in response to an outrage that doesn't even exist?

[Jay G.]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

The majority of them are actually.
And they hate it when non-black people are "outraged" on their behalf.

Well, far be it from me to try and talk on behalf of any black person, so I'll just quote them.

https://www.wired.com/story/tech-con...-master-slave/

A few years ago, Karla Monterroso was at an airport when she noticed a glitch in a computer monitor that would normally display flight information. Instead, the screen showed the text “Master/Slave,” repeated at least 10 times from top to bottom.

“I remember freaking out about it and going to [people working in] the terminal and letting them know that I thought that’s really inappropriate,” says Monterroso, CEO of Code 2040, a nonprofit dedicated to racial equality and inclusion in tech. “And they’re like, ‘No, that’s just the technology. That’s what the technology says.’”...


When [Caroline Karanja] was teaching herself to code, she thought the choice of the words master and slave was both odd and specific. “This didn’t have to be the language that we used,” says Karanja, who is Black.


Now, as assistant professor of computer science at Howard University, [Gloria Washington] says the master/slave terminology reflects how systemic racism was “built into the fabric of computer science.”

https://builtin.com/software-enginee...nology-changes

Throughout his long career in tech, Blacks in Technology executive director Peter Beasley heard programmers use the terms “master” and “slave” to refer to development branches or databases many times.

“Did I, Peter Beasley, start a movement or make a big deal about it? No, I didn’t do that. But I personally tried not to use those words,” he said. “I would never use them.”

Did that make his job harder?

“I’m going to say yes,” he said. “Not the words themselves, but the fabric they’re a part of.”

...

But just because the impact of language changes isn’t immediately clear doesn’t mean those changes aren’t significant, Peta Hoyes said. Hoyes is COO and a partner at Tag1 Consulting, a firm that helps optimize websites built with the open-source Drupal framework.

https://www.cnet.com/news/twitter-en...-master-slave/

For Regynald Augustin, a Black programmer at Twitter, the impetus for change arrived in an email last year with the phrase "automatic slave rekick."

The words were just part of an engineering discussion about restarting a secondary process, but they prompted Augustin to start trying to change Twitter's use of words with racist connections. Augustin was used to seeing the term "slave" in technical contexts. "But with 'rekick' -- I was madder than I ever thought I'd be in the workplace," he said.

First on his own and then joining forces with another engineer, Kevin Oliver, he helped spearhead an effort to replace terms like "master," "slave," "whitelist" and "blacklist" with words that didn't hearken back to oppressive parts of United States history and culture. He recounted his thoughts at the time: "This has to stop. This isn't cool. We have to change this now."

https://www.marketplace.org/2020/06/...fensive-terms/

Alexis Moody, a software engineer at data intelligence firm Morning Consult, is working on changing the language there and wrote a guide for others to do the same.

“You know, as a child of slaves and sharecroppers from the South,” she said of her experience as a Black woman in tech. “Seeing those terms, it’s just a little cut all the time. It just continues to get at you. And it’s one of those things that it’s hard to overlook over time.”

When you polled your black coworkers, what was the context? Were you asking in front of others, in front of the whole team? Are you confident they felt safe to provide their honest opinion, instead of stating the opinion they thought they should state, or was already stated or implied by you and others? Did they have time to think and reflect on the question?

Also, why does it have to get to the point of "outrage" before making changes? Can't a person or organization look at words or phrases and state "these terms don't reflect who we are anymore, and we don't want to perpetuate them anymore"? Especially with IT, where the alternative phrases are often better from a technical standpoint as well? Do you get nearly as upset about people changing terms for purely technical reasons? Like, tech terms should never, ever, change to suit newer understandings, technical or otherwise?

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Jay G.

Well, far be it from me to try and talk on behalf of any black person, so I'll just quote them.

[Show spoiler]https://www.wired.com/story/tech-con...-master-slave/


https://builtin.com/software-enginee...nology-changes


https://www.cnet.com/news/twitter-en...-master-slave/


https://www.marketplace.org/2020/06/...fensive-terms/

So that's it? You're quoting people who make it a point to make everything about race - because that's how they make their living? "says Monterroso, CEO of Code 2040, a nonprofit dedicated to racial equality and inclusion in tech" - "Blacks in Technology executive director Peter Beasley" - and the shitshow also known as Twitter.

When you polled your black coworkers, what was the context? Were you asking in front of others, in front of the whole team? Are you confident they felt safe to provide their honest opinion, instead of stating the opinion they thought they should state, or was already stated or implied by you and others? Did they have time to think and reflect on the question?

And WTF is this supposed to mean? Like they'd be afraid to say something else?

Update - got some hearty laughs with this one, with a trace of annoyance: they're kind of offended you don't think they can't think or take care of themselves.

[Jay G.]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

So that's it? You're quoting people who make it a point to make everything about race - because that's how they make their living?

So you're going to discount all of those black people I quoted because some of them focus on racial equality? What about Gloria Washington, Peta Hoyes, Regynald Augustin, and Alexis Moody?

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

And WTF is this supposed to mean? Like they'd be afraid to say something else?

Possibly, or just not think it's worth the hassle to dispute your clear outrage, or maybe just never gave it much thought.

But I'm not saying that black people are some monolith that have to be in 100% agreement with each other, nor do they need be in order to justify changing the terms. The terms have caused offense to some actual black people that can be quoted and on the record, and above that are often less accurate than alternatives. So it makes sense to change them.

Since you didn't quote or respond to this part of my last post, I'll rephrase it as a hypothetical: if the changing of "master/slave" to "primary/secondary", "parent/child", or some other term was only about using something more technically accurate, would you be upset? If not, why are you upset that there's a racial component to the change? Surely it's a good thing to change terms to something that's both reducing racial offense in society and being more technically accurate?

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Jay G.

Possibly, or just not think it's worth the hassle to dispute your clear outrage, or maybe just never gave it much thought.

They're laughing about it. You're the one that's outraged here.

Since you didn't quote or respond to this part of my last post, I'll rephrase it as a hypothetical: if the changing of "master/slave" to "primary/secondary", "parent/child", or some other term was only about using something more technically accurate, would you be upset? If not, why are you upset that there's a racial component to the change? Surely it's a good thing to change terms to something that's both reducing racial offense in society and being more technically accurate?

Slaves throughout history and TODAY have been all races at one time or another. Romans took slaves all over Europe for example. There is no racial component in the computer terminology.

Political correctness is often stupid. These are one of those times.

PS: Since Britney Spears is in the news, one of her big hits was "I'm A Slave 4 U". Just how many people get triggered over it? ZERO.

https://youtu.be/Mzybwwf2HoQ

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_a_Slave_4_U
Written by Pharrell Williams. You might want to tell him it triggers you.

[MifuneFan]

I think we can all agree that song would receive a very different reaction today.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

I think we can all agree that song would receive a very different reaction today.

She performed it in her Vegas show which ended not too long ago. It's a centerpiece.

[WBMakeVMarsMovieNOW]

Originally Posted by Martoto

name of a ship used by a character with no connection to slavery. Or it’s important that Disney continue to put it on merchandise. Or it’s important that Disney don’t appear to be placing too much importance on these things by changing it , but it IS important that it appears on toy boxes and not just “Boba Fett’s Starship”.

how in the world can you say Boba Fett hsa no connection to tons of seedy things including slavery?

if Disney wasn't putting any importance on the name they would not have bothered to go around wasting time replacing the name everywhere now

it's a shallow, non-sensical sort of name replacement, it's more like if they published books on 1840s South Carolina and said if someone had a buggy wagon named the Slave Transporter and they renamed it to the Montgomery or to the Happy Farmhand Transport

it's not like Luke had a ship called Slave I and was going around saying man my ship is so cool because I gave it that name to honor the slavery

[WBMakeVMarsMovieNOW]

Originally Posted by Jay G.

Any black people in your team?

(on a side note, not just black people were held as slaves (and especially not when it comes to serfs). Many of my (mostly) whiter than white ancestors were held as serfs until 1818 and many didn't get last names until 1835 and few were likely held as out and out slaves in the early 1700s based on their particular white ethnicity (a very few might not have been freed from serfdom and gotten last names until 1861).

And there were other slaves trades than the Atlantic, like the Ottoman slave trade which had one large branch capture and enslave people from the general Ukraine to Western Russia to the Baltic and even a bit into Scandinavia and march them endless and if someone couldn't keep up they might toss them to the side and use them as live target practice with bows and arrows or tie each limb to a horse and then set the horses running and many were used as forced sex slaves, etc.)

(on another note though I know the above is not quite the same deal and not completely directly relevant to the specific point at hand here, as we are talking the U.S. here and the long way certain things have played out here and skin color didn't come into play, etc.)

[Martoto]

Originally Posted by WBMakeVMarsMovieNOW

how in the world can you say Boba Fett hsa no connection to tons of seedy things including slavery?

Because it’s never alluded to in any canon material that he does. All the work on relating slavery to Fett is purely voluntary on the part of some fans. But fans don’t write the thing. Sorry.

[WBMakeVMarsMovieNOW]

Originally Posted by Martoto

Because it’s never alluded to in any canon material that he does. All the work on relating slavery to Fett is purely voluntary on the part of some fans. But fans don’t write the thing. Sorry.

Jabba had slaves and he works for Jabba and plenty of others. It's hardly a stretch that he dealt with slaves at times or that whoever originally named the ship dealt with them at times or just wanted an underbelly sort of name. Fett deals with the underbelly and gangsters and the like all the time.

[Martoto]

Originally Posted by WBMakeVMarsMovieNOW

Jabba had slaves and he works for Jabba and plenty of others. It's hardly a stretch that he dealt with slaves at times or that whoever originally named the ship dealt with them at times or just wanted an underbelly sort of name. Fett deals with the underbelly and gangsters and the like all the time.

What? Boba named his ship that because he’s a Jabba stan? That’s ludicrous.

[Jay G.]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Slaves throughout history and TODAY have been all races at one time or another....

And yet, when a publisher wanted to remove the N word from Mark Twain's Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, they substituted the word "slave."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advent...gated_editions

There's a strong racial component to it in the modern day USA. We still have people waving the Confederate flag around.

However, let's remove the racial component. Human trafficking still exists. If some victim of human trafficking later entered into a technology field and claimed they didn't like the casual and inaccurate usage of the terms master/slave in tech, would it not be worthwhile to change the terms so as to not affect current day, direct victims of slavery?

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Political correctness is often stupid. These are one of those times.

Why is it stupid to want to reduce offense? How much skin off your back is it to start using different terms, terms that are often more technically accurate? You're putting more energy in arguing that the changes being made are stupid than it would take to just accept the new terms and move on.

And you still haven't answered my question: if the changing of "master/slave" to "primary/secondary", "parent/child", or some other terms was only about using something more technically accurate, would you be upset?

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

PS: Since Britney Spears is in the news, one of her big hits was "I'm A Slave 4 U". Just how many people get triggered over it? ZERO.

Someone did suggest maybe Britney shouldn't perform that anymore, although they got a lot of pushback:
https://exhale.breatheheavy.com/foru...-matter-topic/

I posed the question about possibly halting Slave 4 U performances because in my mind I felt like I was being sensitive towards the BLM movement.

Anyway, you do understand the difference between a random piece of pop culture that people can opt to listen to or not, and technically incorrect phrases being used as standards in a technological field where anyone who wants to work in the field has to encounter/use them as part of their job, right?

[Hatter]

People going out of their way to find offense with non offensive things is why the world will forever be spinning its wheels.

[WBMakeVMarsMovieNOW]

Originally Posted by Martoto

What? Boba named his ship that because he’s a Jabba stan? That’s ludicrous.

dude slavery is all over Star Wars, Jabba/Hutt Cartel do it, Crimson Dawn does, the Empire does it, the.... it formed a key part of the entire 1-9 arc since without it Vader likely never happens just for starters

not exactly a stretch to think some guy who disintegrates people for money, no questions asked, etc. might give his ship a name like that

[Martoto]

Anakin and his mother are the only identified slaves in the saga. Leia's costume is known, outside of canon, as "slave" costume.

That's it.

Like I said. All the work connecting them is being done by some fans.