Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

I just do not buy that this was a WTF moment. Again, these are 4 Master Jedi... Not just your average, run o' the mill Jedi Knights, but Master Jedi, who have come to arrest the leader of the galaxy. They were not caught off guard. They had their weapons drawn & ignited. As I said, I could see Palps taking out one, I'll even give you two. But anything beyond that is someone trying to rationalize an obvious flaw.

I'm saying WTF is for the viewer. Those two Jedi are dead before they knew what happened, Masters or not, and tentacle head is pooping his pants.

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by Uxi

I'm saying WTF is for the viewer. Those two Jedi are dead before they knew what happened, Masters or not, and tentacle head is pooping his pants.

My point is that it was poorly thought out... Probably not thought out at all. I know how GL works. I can hear him now... Oh yeah, it would be cool if Palpatine swirls in the air & takes out three Jedi. That would be really good on camera and make him look powerful. Unfortunately, the bigger picture is lost, as happens a lot in this saga. George seems to always chose the cool shot or the catchy line over the effect it may have on the story. In this case, he chose the WTF moment for the audience over how this battle should have/would have played out.

[Uxi]

You're taking it way more seriously than he intended, I think. It's not supposed to be any more "realistic" than the Flash Gordon serials. But even so...

Should have played out? I'm not sure why a Sith Lord shouldn't be able to take out three Jedi Masters when the Jedi of this era haven't had to fight a Sith in a thousand years. They're shown to be quite skilled at defending themselves against blasters but lightsaber on lightsaber fighting is pretty rare since there are so few Sith to fight against.

[bboisvert]

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

My point is that it was poorly thought out... Probably not thought out at all. I know how GL works. I can hear him now... Oh yeah, it would be cool if Palpatine swirls in the air & takes out three Jedi. That would be really good on camera and make him look powerful. Unfortunately, the bigger picture is lost, as happens a lot in this saga. George seems to always chose the cool shot or the catchy line over the effect it may have on the story. In this case, he chose the WTF moment for the audience over how this battle should have/would have played out.

Lucas rewrote that scene a bunch of times right up until (and even beyond) filming. Most drafts have Anakin already in the room w/Palp... and Mace coming in alone to arrest him.

The additional Jedi was a last-second addition and I think he just wanted to get rid of them quickly.

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by Uxi

You're taking it way more seriously than he intended, I think. It's not supposed to be any more "realistic" than the Flash Gordon serials. But even so...

Should have played out? I'm not sure why a Sith Lord shouldn't be able to take out three Jedi Masters when the Jedi of this era haven't had to fight a Sith in a thousand years. They're shown to be quite skilled at defending themselves against blasters but lightsaber on lightsaber fighting is pretty rare since there are so few Sith to fight against.

Who had Palpatine fought?

Seriously, if one of three Master Jedi couldn't figure out to take this guy out while he's occupied with the fourth... I don't know what to say. Again, I chalk it up to GL going for flash over logic. He chose an initial (as you put it) WTF! moment over thinking about what the scene implies.

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

Who had Palpatine fought?

Palpatine and the Sith were always training to fight Jedi and get their vengeance. The Jedi OTOH thought the Sith were long gone... "Impossible... the Sith have been extinct for a millennium"

Seriously, if one of three Master Jedi couldn't figure out to take this guy out while he's occupied with the fourth... I don't know what to say. Again, I chalk it up to GL going for flash over logic. He chose an initial (as you put it) WTF! moment over thinking about what the scene implies.

Didn't you already stipulate that you were cool with two of them dying right away?

"As I said, I could see Palps taking out one, I'll even give you two." yeah, you did.

That's what happened. What are you complaining about again? You Mace and the other dude should have been able to beat him then? Do you think Mace won in the one-on-one or was Sidious faking it to turn Anakin?

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by Uxi

Didn't you already stipulate that you were cool with two of them dying right away?

"As I said, I could see Palps taking out one, I'll even give you two." yeah, you did.

That's what happened. What are you complaining about again? You Mace and the other dude should have been able to beat him then? Do you think Mace won in the one-on-one or was Sidious faking it to turn Anakin?

I said, I'll give you two. I did that for argument's sake, though I really don't see it happening.

I think GL himself said that Mace Windu is/was the best fighter with a lightsaber in the entire saga. I think Mace kicked Palpatine's ass for real. If Palpatine was faking it with Mace, he wasn't when he faced Yoda. Mace was a better swordsman than Yoda, and Palps didn't defeat Yoda either. There was no guarantee that Anakin would get there in time to save Palps. There was no guarantee he would show up at all. Palps was already down when Anakin did get there. Had Mace acted quickly & decisively (as I pointed out in a prior post) when Palpatine was down, Anakin would not have had the opportunity to save him.

[mrpink134]

The problem is,when you watch Empire Luke ask Yoda if the dark side is stronger and Yoda says no. Also how can Ben and Yoda refer to Luke as the one that can beat them when Palatine took out 3 jedi masters by himself? Bad writing Lucas messed up the pt from the get go.

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by mrpink134

The problem is,when you watch Empire Luke ask Yoda if the dark side is stronger and Yoda says no. Also how can Ben and Yoda refer to Luke as the one that can beat them when Palatine took out 3 jedi masters by himself? Bad writing Lucas messed up the pt from the get go.

He didn't mess up the PT... He didn't think the entire saga through properly. It just showed in the PT because it came later.

[fgomike]

Originally Posted by mrpink134

The problem is,when you watch Empire Luke ask Yoda if the dark side is stronger and Yoda says no. Also how can Ben and Yoda refer to Luke as the one that can beat them when Palatine took out 3 jedi masters by himself? Bad writing Lucas messed up the pt from the get go.

My interpretation of what Yoda said is that the Dark Side not stronger, but it is quicker, easier. It seduces you. The Dark Side is strong, but ultimately, the Light Side is stronger because of the path Luke chose.

[mrpink134]

Originally Posted by fgomike

My interpretation of what Yoda said is that the Dark Side not stronger, but it is quicker, easier. It seduces you. The Dark Side is strong, but ultimately, the Light Side is stronger because of the path Luke chose.

If that's the case how can Palatine wipe out 3 Jedi masters within a minute? Lucas did it for show not thinking about the past story lines and what was said.

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by mrpink134

If that's the case how can Palatine wipe out 3 Jedi masters within a minute? Lucas did it for show not thinking about the past story lines and what was said.

Palpatine and the Sith were always training to fight Jedi and get their vengeance. The Jedi OTOH thought the Sith were long gone... "Impossible... the Sith have been extinct for a millennium" and train to fight bad guys with blasters

[STARKILLER--1138]

Yeah, I agree about the Sidious fight with Mace and the gang. Would have like to see a bigger fight. Especially from Kit Fisto. Seemed like he was more of a badass than that. They kinda got punked out like Boba did. Still, the rest of the fight with just Mace and Sidious was good, not great, but good. Though, far better than the old man Jedi Kenobi fighting Vader, and much better than Luke's skippy step lumber jack hack fighting style. They are what they are though. The idea about having the Red Guards join in would have been awesome!

[mrpink134]

Originally Posted by Uxi

Palpatine and the Sith were always training to fight Jedi and get their vengeance. The Jedi OTOH thought the Sith were long gone... "Impossible... the Sith have been extinct for a millennium"

So who did the sith train against? Are you trying to tell me that the Jedi never train? I recall Obi WAN telling Anakin if he trained harder in swordsman ship he would rival Yoda. That tells me the Jedi trained and your logic is faulty.

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by mrpink134

If that's the case how can Palatine wipe out 3 Jedi masters within a minute? Lucas did it for show not thinking about the past story lines and what was said.

Yup. Like I said, GL choses the flashy scenes, catch lines, WTF moments, etc, over what they mean to the story or the characters.

[Grand Bob]

Originally Posted by Duffy12

Yea, I never understood what the heck is going on there. Its like all those Jedi's are just standing around 'chillin' board out of their minds, then after Palps wipes out those three, Mace wakes up and gets down to business.


Does anybody have a good explanation as to what exactly is going on in that scene?

Ditto. That was broadcast recently on Spike HD, and after watching it again I was thinking, "Jedi lapse of attention? - come on guys!" Another incongruity, similar to Anakin's unbelievable quick turn to the Dark Side.

[mrpink134]

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

Yup. Like I said, GL choses the flashy scenes, catch lines, WTF moments, etc, over what they mean to the story or the characters.

I agree. He should of watched the OT before writing the PT not leaving to many holes in the story lines. Myself I liked the first battle between Luke and Vader the best, not as flashy but more memorable.

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by mrpink134

I agree. He should of watched the OT before writing the PT not leaving to many holes in the story lines. Myself I liked the first battle between Luke and Vader the best, not as flashy but more memorable.

Palps was more of a Force user than a swordsman. Even during the final Vader/Luke battle on the second Death Star, Palpatine called Like's lightsaber a Jedi wreapon, as though he had nothing to do with lightsabers. His only attack against Luke was with Force lightning. Palpatine was not a badass with a lightsaber. Mace decisively bested him and he turned to Force lightning against Yoda. The three Jedi he took out were very accomplished with lightsabers. As I said, anyone thinking the way it happened is at all realistic, is only grasping at straws to rationalize something GL screwed up.

I definitely agree regarding the first Luke/Vader duel. The one on Cloud City was the best duel of the OT. Then again, ESB was the best film of the OT (probably of the entire saga).

[dcowboy7]

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

Then again, ESB was the best film of the OT (probably of the entire saga).

Never heard that before.

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by dcowboy7

Never heard that before.

Are you being sarcastic?