Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[STARKILLER--1138]

Originally Posted by dcowboy7

Never heard that before.

I know...

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by mrpink134

So who did the sith train against? Are you trying to tell me that the Jedi never train? I recall Obi WAN telling Anakin if he trained harder in swordsman ship he would rival Yoda. That tells me the Jedi trained and your logic is faulty.

Jedi do indeed train. To fight droids and bad guys with blasters. They do ok against Sith, but Qui-gon ate it, too. Once they learn the Sith are back... they have a war to fight where they're vastly outnumbered against Droids.

The Sith train against each other. Any Jedi they could murder here and there would contribute. Remember Sidious to Maul "You have been well trained... they will be no match for you."

So yeah, those 4 Masters were probably the best swordsmen they had available. 3 of em getting diced up isn't at all implausible given they had other concerns to train for the previous decade while the Sith only had to train to kill Jedi.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by atexp80

Whilst I generally agree with your sentiments a lot has changed since then. Sure theatre screens offer better resolution but naturally people have also come to expect things to appear more realistic today (that doesn't mean that all effects work is realistic though ). Yes, there were most certainly films from the 60's and onwards in particular where visual effects became extremely realistic however sometimes the limitations of the time simply meant certain things couldn't be portrayed as well as they might be now, even if using traditional methods like model making. Audiences would have most likely been accustomed to that at the time. Take 2001 for example - prior to that people would have accepted special effects shots of space in any film with wonder. After seeing 2001 I'm sure a lot of people would look back on those earlier films wondering how they ever looked realistic.

Even Star Wars has issues.

I think many CGI-generated visual effects actually look worse than the matte paintings, miniatures and stop-motion animation used years ago. When a person looks like a video game character, that really doesn't impress me at all.

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by Uxi

Jedi do indeed train. To fight droids and bad guys with blasters. They do ok against Sith, but Qui-gon ate it, too. Once they learn the Sith are back... they have a war to fight where they're vastly outnumbered against Droids.

The Sith train against each other. Any Jedi they could murder here and there would contribute. Remember Sidious to Maul "You have been well trained... they will be no match for you."

So yeah, those 4 Masters were probably the best swordsmen they had available. 3 of em getting diced up isn't at all implausible given they had other concerns to train for the previous decade while the Sith only had to train to kill Jedi.

Again, GL himself said that Mace was the best swordsman in the entire saga, not simply one of the best the Jedi had available. And Palpatine was wrong. The Jedi (Ben specifically) was a match for Maul. If I remember correctly, he cut him in half. You expect us to believe that one Sith took on four Jedi (one being the best swordsman in the saga), killing three within seconds when they were all ready, sabers drawn & ignited, simply because the Sith only had to train to kill Jedi? I guess Palpatine had NOTHING else going on? Plotting to rule the galaxy... Manipulating two seperate armies... Keeping up the role of Chancelor... Luring Anakin towards the dark side... Etc, etc. None of that took up any of his time or effort? Also, Luke was able to survive one duel with Vader and defeat him with Palpatine looking on during their second, when he had a bare minimum of Jedi training and almost zero lightsaber training. Hell, he'd never even heard of the Force until not long before that. You can't say that Palpatine took down three Jedi Masters within seconds because of training or becasue he had nothing else occupying his time or thoughts. Besides, the Jedi didn't just realize the Sith had reremerged when Palpatine lunged at them. They had been aware for at least 10 years since Maul appeared. In fact, they had been on the lookout for the second (always two there are).

C.mon. Stop trying to rationalize this. It's a screw up. Accept it. Lucas did it for looks or some other "flash" reason or as a quick way to kill of a few Jedi without any effort or thought as to Could this reasonably happen? on his part. My guess is it's a combination.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

Palps was more of a Force user than a swordsman. Even during the final Vader/Luke battle on the second Death Star, Palpatine called Like's lightsaber a Jedi wreapon, as though he had nothing to do with lightsabers. His only attack against Luke was with Force lightning. Palpatine was not a badass with a lightsaber. Mace decisively bested him and he turned to Force lightning against Yoda. The three Jedi he took out were very accomplished with lightsabers. As I said, anyone thinking the way it happened is at all realistic, is only grasping at straws to rationalize something GL screwed up.

I definitely agree regarding the first Luke/Vader duel. The one on Cloud City was the best duel of the OT. Then again, ESB was the best film of the OT (probably of the entire saga).

First off, Palpatine is super-quick, the only other person even close is Yoda. You can make up a bunch of arbitrary rankings as to who is the better saber-fighter if you wish, but the fact of the matter is that you can see clearly, in the movie, that Palpatine moves quicker than his opponents.

Secondly, fighting and fencing are not the same thing. Again, there is no "ranking system" of saber fighters, such that, for instance, Windu would be "better" than Palpatine, and therefore could not realistically be beaten by Palpatine. That's not how real fights work... come to think of it, that's not how any real contest works. If it were, then instead of playing the Super Bowl or World Series, some stat-monkey could just decide a winner on paper without either team taking the field. Underdogs win all the time, that's not an "unrealistic screw-up".

Contests are decided by action in reality, NOT by ranking systems.

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

First off, Palpatine is super-quick, the only other person even close is Yoda. You can make up a bunch of arbitrary rankings as to who is the better saber-fighter if you wish, but the fact of the matter is that you can see clearly, in the movie, that Palpatine moves quicker than his opponents.

Secondly, fighting and fencing are not the same thing. Again, there is no "ranking system" of saber fighters, such that, for instance, Windu would be "better" than Palpatine, and therefore could not realistically be beaten by Palpatine. That's not how real fights work... come to think of it, that's not how any real contest works. If it were, then instead of playing the Super Bowl or World Series, some stat-monkey could just decide a winner on paper without either team taking the field. Underdogs win all the time, that's not an "unrealistic screw-up".

Contests are decided by action in reality, NOT by ranking systems.

Yup. And this is a movie, not reality. If the writer says This guy is the best at this particular thing, that is canon. Like iot or not, Mace had Palpatine beaten. All evidence in the rest of the entire saga and by what it's creator states, says this scene is not reasonable. Go on about rankings & the Super Bowl or whatever else tickles your fancy... Believing this scene is anything other than Lucas chosing flash over reasoning or good judgement is rationalizing the absurd. It's about as believable as some action movie where the good guy stands in the open, exchanging gunfire with 100 trained soldiers... Not only never getting hit, but taking every one of them out. Sure, there's the underdog winning, then there's the ridiculous.

Or maybe GL wanted to portray these Jedi that he'd built up through 5 previous films as being the guardians of the galaxy, as actually being a bunch of stooges that can't get out of thier own way or somewhat decisively defeat one opponent when they have him outnumbered four to one. Hmmm... One Vs. four... One beats three... One fakes getting beaten by number four... Maybe Yoda lied & the dark side is stronger? Maybe GL's epic tale of good Vs. evil really is summed up best in it's parody?.. Dark Helmet: Good is Dumb.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

Yup. And this is a movie, not reality. If the writer says This guy is the best at this particular thing, that is canon. Like iot or not, Mace had Palpatine beaten. All evidence in the rest of the entire saga and by what it's creator states, says this scene is not reasonable. Go on about rankings & the Super Bowl or whatever else tickles your fancy... Believing this scene is anything other than Lucas chosing flash over reasoning or good judgement is rationalizing the absurd. It's about as believable as some action movie where the good guy stands in the open, exchanging gunfire with 100 trained soldiers... Not only never getting hit, but taking every one of them out. Sure, there's the underdog winning, then there's the ridiculous.

Or maybe GL wanted to portray these Jedi that he'd built up through 5 previous films as being the guardians of the galaxy, as actually being a bunch of stooges that can't get out of thier own way or somewhat decisively defeat one opponent when they have him outnumbered four to one.

Hold on... so now you're saying that it's implausible because it's a movie, and underdogs only win in reality? In other words, it's unrealistic because it's realistic.

Saying someone is the best at something, is not the same thing as saying they are unbeatable.

Dude, you just lost your point, convincingly. You should delete that last post just to save face.

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

Again, GL himself said that Mace was the best swordsman in the entire saga, not simply one of the best the Jedi had available.

I think you need to rewatch ROTS and this time turn on the commentary. Keep going after Anakin comes and listen to what he says. That's where the idea comes that Palps threw the fight. He wasn't beaten yet by a long shot. Sure, Mace could still win without Anakin there, but the fight wasn't over yet.

And Palpatine was wrong. The Jedi (Ben specifically) was a match for Maul. If I remember correctly, he cut him in half.

Only because Maul was arrogant and thought the fight was over already. Not because of any measure of their relative skills. You must think Ep1 Obi-wan could beat Qui-Gon, then right?

You expect us to believe that one Sith took on four Jedi (one being the best swordsman in the saga), killing three within seconds when they were all ready, sabers drawn & ignited, simply because the Sith only had to train to kill Jedi?

You yourself agree two dead within seconds is plausible. Sounds like you need to watch it again. The third lasts a couple more exchanging a couple swings/parries.

Qui-Gon: "He had all the lightsaber fighting capabilities and the moves of the Jedi, only faster and more agressive. My only conclusion... is that it was a Sith lord."

C.mon. Stop trying to rationalize this. It's a screw up. Accept it. Lucas did it for looks or some other "flash" reason or as a quick way to kill of a few Jedi without any effort or thought as to Could this reasonably happen? on his part. My guess is it's a combination.

Well I don't think lightsabers and the Force could really be considered as reasonably likely to happen, so guess the whole thing is moot. You're just picking a nit, though. Admit it, and accept it. My last word on it is my first: take out that one shot of Palpatine cranking back his lightsaber and the entire scene comes off alot better.

[fgomike]

Originally Posted by mrpink134

If that's the case how can Palatine wipe out 3 Jedi masters within a minute? Lucas did it for show not thinking about the past story lines and what was said.

Yoda had said in ATOC that the Jedi had be come arrogant. Perhaps, because they had not been challenged for so long, they became complacent.

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by fgomike

Yoda had said in ATOC that the Jedi had be come arrogant. Perhaps, because they had not been challenged for so long, they became complacent.

One would wonder why they were arrogant when their ability to use the Force had diminished and the Separatists were beginning to overwhelm them.

[goldenrod]

Originally Posted by fgomike

Yoda had said in ATOC that the Jedi had be come arrogant. Perhaps, because they had not been challenged for so long, they became complacent.

Actually, it's Obi-Wan saying about Anakin, when he walks with Windu and Yoda, that his abilities has made him arrogant.

[JamesKurtovich]

I also thought the fight between Sidious and the four Jedi was ridiculous. They all died so fast I barely noticed they had gone and it was just between Palps and Mace.

They stood there and let it happen. Lucas probably just wrote "Palpatine kills the three Jedi accompanying Mace Windu..." and didn't put any thought towards how it was going to happen.

Everyone talks about how boring the Ben/Vader fight is, but they forget that it doesn't blend with Episode III at all. Not only the fighting style and pace, but Obi-Wan looks like he's aged 50 years since ROTS, not 18...

I agree that the whole saga wasn't well thought out, but Lucas should have recognized all of the holes and made the PT to sync well with the OT. Not make the new movies and change the older ones.

[Duffy12]

It looks like that some fan gave it a go in trying to fix the Mace/Palpatine scene.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb4YM...eature=related


.

[goldenrod]

Originally Posted by Duffy12

It looks like that some fan gave it a go in trying to fix the Mace Palpatine scene.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb4YM...eature=related

I like the fact that the fight is shorter, no more Sidious jumping backwards.

[Duffy12]

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

I hate to say this, but after watching the lightsaber duels in the PT... All of the duels in the OT (not just the Obi-Wan/Vader duel in ANH) look very lethargic now. I'm sure someone (cough cough) will rationalize that the Jedi are all but extinct... Luke hadn't had the proper training... Vader was older... Blah, blah, balh. But the reality is that the duels just aren't visually as intense as those from the PT.

I don't know about that, but I much prefer this style...

[Show spoiler]

over this one...

[Show spoiler]

any day of the week.



But, like they say "to each his own".

[goldenrod]

Originally Posted by Duffy12

I don't know about that, but I much prefer this style...

[Show spoiler]

over this one...

[Show spoiler]

any day of the week.



But, like they say "to each his own".

The fights that I really liked in the PT are Qui-Gon & Obi-Wan versus Maul and Obi-Wan vs. Maul after Qui-Gon is killed and Obi-Wan vs. Anakin before the volcano eruption shot.

Anakin vs. Dooku in AOTC is lame, what do we see besides close-ups on the actor wielding his stick over his head? All os Sidious' fight scene are boring.

Sure, Vader isn't impressive in his fighting skills in the OT, but I think that the character's suit isn't helping the stuntmanm performing the fights.

[nathan_393]

Originally Posted by Duffy12

I don't know about that, but I much prefer this style...

[Show spoiler]

over this one...

[Show spoiler]

any day of the week.




But, like they say "to each his own".

Absolutely agreed. I love that non-stylized sword fighting. It's really cool.

[Monolithium]

Originally Posted by Duffy12

It looks like that some fan gave it a go in trying to fix the Mace/Palpatine scene.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb4YM...eature=related

That is brilliant.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by JamesKurtovich

I also thought the fight between Sidious and the four Jedi was ridiculous. They all died so fast I barely noticed they had gone and it was just between Palps and Mace.

They stood there and let it happen. Lucas probably just wrote "Palpatine kills the three Jedi accompanying Mace Windu..." and didn't put any thought towards how it was going to happen.

Actually, it's well documented that Lucas does not get into the fight choreography very much, especially with the PT. He simply writes "they fight" in the treatment, and then hands it off to subordinate writers and stunt co-ordinators to finish. I'm sure that in that specific case, Lucas did in fact write "Palpatine quickly dispatches 3 Jedi, leaving only Windu" in the treatment, and left the details up to others. He didn't micro-manage Star Wars quite as much as some people assume he did.

Originally Posted by Duffy12

I don't know about that, but I much prefer this style...

[Show spoiler]

over this one...

[Show spoiler]

any day of the week.

But, like they say "to each his own".

Sure, pick on that one moment in the fight where they are both using the same technique to "defend while looking for a break in the other's defense".

I'm sure that negatively cherrypicking that Luke-Vader fight would yield similar results.

[partridge]

Perhaps as a real show of power and a more convincing way to take them out would have been for Palpatine to fire off a lethal shot of lightning at a couple of them, leap towards the third with an immediate killing blow then launch into the fight with Mace; that would have been an eye opener for them and the audience!

Ah well, we have what we have.