Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Bluyoda

Says who?

People complain about the same kind of films all the time, but when a more challenging film comes along they demand everything to be laid out as it's supposed to be.
I like it this way. You may call me a Lucas fanboy, or whatever. I don't care.
I just like the concept. It's more like reality, where you have to put A+B together all by yourself. It's way more complex than other films.
That's one of the things I truly enjoy about the Saga.

Says me.

And I don't see it as a challegning series of films... just ones that don't quite add up. 2+2 aren't quite making 4.

The Red Letter Media reviews of the prequels are actually very well thought out and insightful. It really points out a lot of problems with them. And there are other things that have just always bugged me.


Let's look at some examples:

In ANH and the OT in general, the force (and the path of learning the force/becoming a Jedi) is presented as a combination of it being a spritual thing and a learned skill. It's like religon combined with gymnastics, if you will. (There's even reference to it as a "religion" in that one comment directed at Vader).

But then in the PT we are introduced to the concept of midichlorians... a biological component of the force. Basically, those who have more of them have a greater ability (or at least geater potential) for using the force. That kind of goes against the way it is presented in the original movies, IMO. It downplays the importance of it as something that can be learned, and rather it's something that people have to have a specific pre-existing biological trait in order to ever hope to achieve. The only thing that I can think of in the OT that even remotely implies the existence of a biological component is Luke saying things like "The force is strong in my family"... and even that's a stretch.

But I digress on my issue with the midichlorians in-and-of themselves. Rather, my issue is more so how the very nature of the Jedi order works in a way that is completely contradictory to the biological component that works as the very source of their abilities...

In the PT, the Jedi aren't supposed to love (not the in the romantic/getting married sense, anyway). They are supposed to be 'monks' in a sense. They aren't supposed to get married, have kids, etc... and Anikin's relationship with Padme is this thing that have to have in secret.

Now, I'm not a scientist or anything, but I did take Biology in high school and college. Genetic, biological traits are passed down to offspring from their parents. In order for a particular trait to continue to exist through the generations, the people/animals/etc that have it have to mate and produce offspring who will then either have the trait or at least will have the genetic make up to pass it on in the event of it 'skipping' a generation.

So, the problem is quite simply that the Jedi order discourages the very people who are strongest in these biological, genetic traits (the Jedi) from reproducing, and therefore creating more people whom would best be suited for being trained in the Jedi ways.


Now, sure, there are likely other people/aliens 'out there' in the SW universe who have midichlorians. This is implied in episode 1 where Qui Gon makes the comment about Anikin that he would have been identified early if born in the republic. But none the less, they are still basically shooting themselves in the foot by not allowing the people best suited to 'make' new Jedi from reproducing... that being the Jedi, themselves.

And if the midichlorians are the basis for the force, and plenty of other people out there have them, wouldn't there be people who more or less accidentally 'discover' force powers on their own? No, they wouldn't be fully trained Jedi, but I would imagine that sooner or later random people who have these traits would discover how to pick up small objects with their minds.


Going back to how this relates to the OT... at no point in the OT is it explicitly stated or even implied that the Jedi aren't allowed to marry/have kids. The only pre-existing Jedi who we meet are Obi Wan and Yoda, both of whom were living as hermits because they were in hiding. And if anything, Luke saying things like "The force runs strong in my family" would logically give the impression that the idea of Jedi having families and the very idea of their being an entire family made up of Jedi as not really being too far fetched of an idea.

And at no point in discovering that Vader is his father and in talking with Yoda and Obi Wan after making this discovery is it ever stated that the sheer idea of Anikin, a Jedi, even having kids was some terrible, forbidden thing. Now, I know this is the sort of thing that Beast will likely lump in with his stupid comments about people wanting the movie to stop and things to be spelled out, but this is something that easily could have been worked in with a simple sentence or two in the existing dialogue about the issues already being discussed in a very organic way. It's clear that Lucas hadn't really fully thought out the full nature of the Jedi order when making the OT, in and a round-about way, what he ended up coming up with at least somewhat contradicts what happens in the OT.



I could go on about MANY other issues with how the PT and the OT don't quite mesh up, but this post is already pretty darn long.

The problem, to me, really boils down to this.... The prequels almost don't seem like they were made by the same person who made the original films (even though they were). They almost seems like they were made by someone who saw the OT films several times when they were younger, but hadn't seen them in many years, and went to write the prequels based on fuzzy memories of the OT. Certain aspects of the OT were still clear as day in their mind, but some of the more fine details got lost, and when watching the PT, things just don't quite mesh up.

That's the way it came across to me, anyway.

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

And if the midichlorians are the basis for the force, and plenty of other people out there have them, wouldn't there be people who more or less accidentally 'discover' force powers on their own?

Premise is flawed. Midichlorians were only established as correlation, not causation. It's just as likely that the midis are there because of the Force, not vice versa.

Many of your other points have similar flaws in their reasoning and assumptions without basis in the material, though and thus your conclusion, as well.

[Chordata]

Originally Posted by Uxi

Premise is flawed. Midichlorians were only established as correlation, not causation. It's just as likely that the midis come [i]because[i/] of the Force, not vice versa.

Many of your other points have similar flaws in their reasoning and assumptions without basis in the material, though and thus your conclusion, as well.

Wasn't Anakin conceived by the midicholorians? Weren't others?

Also: Which of his other points are flawed?

[chip75]

I think theres a big difference in wanting something spelled out for you because you haven't paid attention and asking for something to be spelled out for you because it doesn't make sense.

I don't think films should come with user manuals.

[BouCoupDinkyDau]

Originally Posted by chip75

I think theres a big difference in wanting something spelled out for you because you haven't paid attention and asking for something to be spelled out for you because it doesn't make sense.

I don't think films should come with user manuals.

+1
Right on, man.

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by O_V_N

Wasn't Anakin conceived by the midicholorians? Weren't others?

Also: Which of his other points are flawed?

I haven't yet read the post Uxi is refering to, but I too always thought the Force caused the higher Midichlorian count rather than the other way around.

[BouCoupDinkyDau]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

The problem, to me, really boils down to this.... The prequels almost don't seem like they were made by the same person who made the original films (even though they were). They almost seems like they were made by someone who saw the OT films several times when they were younger, but hadn't seen them in many years, and went to write the prequels based on fuzzy memories of the OT.

That's the way it came across to me, anyway.

I'm in the same boat, man. I feel yah.

One of my favorites is the whole Fett thing. Boba is called Jago's son, but in fact, to be a son, 50% of Boba's DNA would have had to come from someone else.

Boba is in fact the younger twin brother of Jango.

[JamesKurtovich]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Going back to how this relates to the OT... at no point in the OT is it explicitly stated or even implied that the Jedi aren't allowed to marry/have kids

Not just Jedi but Senators too! What an awkward, sexless galaxy that existed long ago far away.

Wait George, I see what you did there! lol @ attempt at forbidden romance

[BouCoupDinkyDau]

Originally Posted by JamesKurtovich

Not just Jedi but Senators too! What an awkward, sexless galaxy that existed long ago far away.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by BouCoupDinkyDau

I'm in the same boat, man. I feel yah.

One of my favorites is the whole Fett thing. Boba is called Jago's son, but in fact, to be a son, 50% of Boba's DNA would have had to come from someone else.

Boba is in fact the younger twin brother of Jango.

Boba was a clone of Jango. He was just an "unaltered" clone. He didn't grow at an accelarated rate as the other clones. This is specifically stated in Episode II. Jango simply requested an unaltered clone which he is raising as his son.

This actually was clearly explained in the second prequel.

[BouCoupDinkyDau]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Boba was a clone of Jango. He was just an "unaltered" clone. He didn't grow at an accelarated rate as the other clones. This is specifically stated in Episode II. Jango simply requested an unaltered clone which he is raising as his son.

This actually was clearly explained in the second prequel.

Yes, but a person with the EXACT same DNA as you cannot be your child. It's your twin. In order for someone to be your son, they have to be made from the combined DNA of a male and female host.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by BouCoupDinkyDau

Yes, but a person with the EXACT same DNA is you cannot be your child. It's your twin. In order for someone to be your son, they have to be made from the combined DNA of a male and female host.

Yes, I agree, in literal biological terms. But it's more of an adopted son kind of thing. When people adopt a child in real life, that child is not literally their son or daughter. It is not their DNA that makes up the child. But they still typically refer to the kid as their son/daughter. I just see this as being basically the same thing, only involving a clone rather than an adopted kid who someone else gave birth to.

Of all of the problems with the PT, I don't see why you are splitting hairs over this. This is about as much of a non-issue as it gets.

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by BouCoupDinkyDau

Yes, but a person with the EXACT same DNA as you cannot be your child. It's your twin. In order for someone to be your son, they have to be made from the combined DNA of a male and female host.

But Boba came from Jango. A person cannot "have" their own twin. Boba was an offspring of Jango, regardless of method. But I agree, this is a complete non-issue.

[GuruAskew]

Originally Posted by BouCoupDinkyDau

Yes, but a person with the EXACT same DNA as you cannot be your child. It's your twin. In order for someone to be your son, they have to be made from the combined DNA of a male and female host.

This just proves that people will complain about EVERYTHING "Star Wars" post-'83.

Why aren't you *****ing about the fact that Luke isn't biologically the nephew of Owen and Beru Lars? Or that Leia isn't biologically an Organa?

[BouCoupDinkyDau]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Of all of the problems with the PT, I don't see why you are splitting hairs over this. This is about as much of a non-issue as it gets.

I'm not splitting hairs here. I think I'm relating to this as a writer, because when I bring it up with other writers they understand what I am talking about; but when I bring it up with other folks they either scratch their heads or look at me like I'm insane.

My bad.

[BouCoupDinkyDau]

Originally Posted by GuruAskew

Why aren't you *****ing about the fact that Luke isn't biologically the nephew of Owen and Beru Lars? Or that Leia isn't biologically an Organa?

Uh oh. Somebody needs a nice cup of tea and a time out.

Isn't this whole 'internet' thing so important?

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by BouCoupDinkyDau

I'm not splitting hairs here. I think I'm relating to this as a writer, because when I bring it up with other writers they understand what I am talking about; but when I bring it up with other folks they either scratch their heads or look at me like I'm insane.

My bad.

I don't see why a writer would have an issue with this more so than anybody else. Jango calling Boba his son was more symbolic than anything. I would think that a writer would understand symbolism and wouldn't get worked up over the literal meaning of a word, when it is clearly being used a symbolic manner (and it flat out explained as such).

[Bluyoda]

Originally Posted by BouCoupDinkyDau

Yes, but a person with the EXACT same DNA as you cannot be your child. It's your twin. In order for someone to be your son, they have to be made from the combined DNA of a male and female host.

Originally Posted by GuruAskew

This just proves that people will complain about EVERYTHING "Star Wars" post-'83.

Why aren't you *****ing about the fact that Luke isn't biologically the nephew of Owen and Beru Lars? Or that Leia isn't biologically an Organa?

Originally Posted by BouCoupDinkyDau

I'm not splitting hairs here. I think I'm relating to this as a writer, because when I bring it up with other writers they understand what I am talking about; but when I bring it up with other folks they either scratch their heads or look at me like I'm insane.

My bad.

Oh yeah. Come on. That's exactly why I can't take all the complaining seriously anymore.

It's simply ridiculous to the utmost.

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

I don't see why a writer would have an issue with this more so than anybody else. Jango calling Boba his son was more symbolic than anything. I would think that a writer would understand symbolism and wouldn't get worked up over the literal meaning of a word, when it is clearly being used a symbolic manner (and it flat out explained as such).

It doesn't even have to be looked at as symbolic, because it works perfectly fine... Boba was an offspring of Jango, and Jango was raising Boba. Hence, Boba was Jango's Son.

[Bluyoda]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Says me.

And I don't see it as a challegning series of films... just ones that don't quite add up. 2+2 aren't quite making 4.

The Red Letter Media reviews of the prequels are actually very well thought out and insightful. It really points out a lot of problems with them. And there are other things that have just always bugged me.


Let's look at some examples:

In ANH and the OT in general, the force (and the path of learning the force/becoming a Jedi) is presented as a combination of it being a spritual thing and a learned skill. It's like religon combined with gymnastics, if you will. (There's even reference to it as a "religion" in that one comment directed at Vader).

But then in the PT we are introduced to the concept of midichlorians... a biological component of the force. Basically, those who have more of them have a greater ability (or at least geater potential) for using the force. That kind of goes against the way it is presented in the original movies, IMO. It downplays the importance of it as something that can be learned, and rather it's something that people have to have a specific pre-existing biological trait in order to ever hope to achieve. The only thing that I can think of in the OT that even remotely implies the existence of a biological component is Luke saying things like "The force is strong in my family"... and even that's a stretch.

But I digress on my issue with the midichlorians in-and-of themselves. Rather, my issue is more so how the very nature of the Jedi order works in a way that is completely contradictory to the biological component that works as the very source of their abilities...

In the PT, the Jedi aren't supposed to love (not the in the romantic/getting married sense, anyway). They are supposed to be 'monks' in a sense. They aren't supposed to get married, have kids, etc... and Anikin's relationship with Padme is this thing that have to have in secret.

Now, I'm not a scientist or anything, but I did take Biology in high school and college. Genetic, biological traits are passed down to offspring from their parents. In order for a particular trait to continue to exist through the generations, the people/animals/etc that have it have to mate and produce offspring who will then either have the trait or at least will have the genetic make up to pass it on in the event of it 'skipping' a generation.

So, the problem is quite simply that the Jedi order discourages the very people who are strongest in these biological, genetic traits (the Jedi) from reproducing, and therefore creating more people whom would best be suited for being trained in the Jedi ways.


Now, sure, there are likely other people/aliens 'out there' in the SW universe who have midichlorians. This is implied in episode 1 where Qui Gon makes the comment about Anikin that he would have been identified early if born in the republic. But none the less, they are still basically shooting themselves in the foot by not allowing the people best suited to 'make' new Jedi from reproducing... that being the Jedi, themselves.

And if the midichlorians are the basis for the force, and plenty of other people out there have them, wouldn't there be people who more or less accidentally 'discover' force powers on their own? No, they wouldn't be fully trained Jedi, but I would imagine that sooner or later random people who have these traits would discover how to pick up small objects with their minds.


Going back to how this relates to the OT... at no point in the OT is it explicitly stated or even implied that the Jedi aren't allowed to marry/have kids. The only pre-existing Jedi who we meet are Obi Wan and Yoda, both of whom were living as hermits because they were in hiding. And if anything, Luke saying things like "The force runs strong in my family" would logically give the impression that the idea of Jedi having families and the very idea of their being an entire family made up of Jedi as not really being too far fetched of an idea.

And at no point in discovering that Vader is his father and in talking with Yoda and Obi Wan after making this discovery is it ever stated that the sheer idea of Anikin, a Jedi, even having kids was some terrible, forbidden thing. Now, I know this is the sort of thing that Beast will likely lump in with his stupid comments about people wanting the movie to stop and things to be spelled out, but this is something that easily could have been worked in with a simple sentence or two in the existing dialogue about the issues already being discussed in a very organic way. It's clear that Lucas hadn't really fully thought out the full nature of the Jedi order when making the OT, in and a round-about way, what he ended up coming up with at least somewhat contradicts what happens in the OT.



I could go on about MANY other issues with how the PT and the OT don't quite mesh up, but this post is already pretty darn long.

The problem, to me, really boils down to this.... The prequels almost don't seem like they were made by the same person who made the original films (even though they were). They almost seems like they were made by someone who saw the OT films several times when they were younger, but hadn't seen them in many years, and went to write the prequels based on fuzzy memories of the OT. Certain aspects of the OT were still clear as day in their mind, but some of the more fine details got lost, and when watching the PT, things just don't quite mesh up.

That's the way it came across to me, anyway.

I have got it now:

The Red Letter Reviews are a cloning facility to brainwash innocent minds about the awfulness of the PT.

The dark side has clouded our vision!

No offense, but you do know that you are contradicting yourself, right?

Please don't tell me to point it out to you, because I am not a member of the RedLetter Review sect. Sorry.

Use the force to find out the true identity of the villain.

[Show spoiler]Don't take it personally.