Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[OG Pooh]

The main issue I have is in seperating the trilogies. They are one complete saga... Basically, the life story of Anakin Skywalker. Saying the PT has issues or the OT has issues is just stupid. The entire saga has contradictions, plot holes & issues all over the place. The six films are one story, broken up into chapters, written, signed off on & okayed by one man, George Lucas. You can't blame one trilogy or the other. You have to blame George Lucas for not cross referencing anything.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by JamesKurtovich

Not just Jedi but Senators too! What an awkward, sexless galaxy that existed long ago far away.

Wait George, I see what you did there! lol @ attempt at forbidden romance

And some senators buy risque S&M dresses to wear in front of their bodyguards and eat alien pears (the sexiest fruit in the whole galaxy). It's all about repression Victorian style. I'm sure Lucas filmed lots of space trains going into space tunnels which will be restored for the BD's. And an ignited lightsaber is a metaphor for unrequited Jedi love (especially the purple one)....

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by O_V_N

Wasn't Anakin conceived by the midicholorians?

Was he? We really don't know for sure. That was certainly the conjecture that Qui-Gon believed but Yoda and Mace weren't convinced. Yoda still was against the idea even after the battle of Naboo, where at least a majority of the rest of the Council changed their minds...

Weren't others?

Not that I know of?

Also: Which of his other points are flawed?

"Going back to how this relates to the OT... at no point in the OT is it explicitly stated or even implied that the Jedi aren't allowed to marry/have kids"

This is a logical fallacy. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The OT didn't say alot of things. The OT said almost nothing about the original Jedi order. Neither Yoda nor Obi-wan gave specifics for the simple reason that Jedi orthodoxy was irrelevant to Luke, who had his rudimentary training tailored to a VERY specific goal and not much time for other finer points.

Most of the rest are various opinion pieces, and not inherently right or wrong on their face, but there are a bunch of assumptions he made based on viewing of the OT that just didn't pan out. One particular example on whether the Jedi should be able to have children or not. Alot of assumptions there that are rife with criticism. One can posit a number of good reasons to avoid emotional entanglements that families and relationships, even ignoring the precedents the EU puts forth. Based off Obi-wan's dialog, learned Jedi Masters would almost certainly aware of the hereditary principles, but think where such ideas logically lead. In a word, it's aristocracy, the very antithesis of the representative democracy the Jedi were sworn to defend.

The whole gymnastics thing... well...

[Uxi]

Originally Posted by chip75

And some senators buy risque S&M dresses to wear in front of their bodyguards and eat alien pears (the sexiest fruit in the whole galaxy). It's all about repression Victorian style. I'm sure Lucas filmed lots of space trains going into space tunnels which will be restored for the BD's. And an ignited lightsaber is a metaphor for unrequited Jedi love (especially the purple one)....

Often times such interpretations probably say more about the interpreter than the originally intended message.

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Bluyoda

I have got it now:

The Red Letter Reviews are a cloning facility to brainwash innocent minds about the awfulness of the PT.

The dark side has clouded our vision!

No offense, but you do know that you are contradicting yourself, right?

Please don't tell me to point it out to you, because I am not a member of the RedLetter Review sect. Sorry.

Use the force to find out the true identity of the villain.

[Show spoiler]Don't take it personally.

Actually the whole thing that I wrote earlier wasn't from the Red Letter reviews. There are issues that those reviews brought to light that I hadn't previously noticed (at least not in as clear of a manner as they were pointed out, even though some of those things already seemed "off").

But most everything I typed was stuff that I just noticed on my own. Not anything from those reviews.

At what point did I contradict myself?

[Bluyoda]

Originally Posted by Bluyoda

I have got it now:

The Red Letter Reviews are a cloning facility to brainwash innocent minds about the awfulness of the PT.

The dark side has clouded our vision!

No offense, but you do know that you are contradicting yourself, right?

Please don't tell me to point it out to you, because I am not a member of the RedLetter Review sect. Sorry.

Use the force to find out the true identity of the villain.

[Show spoiler]Don't take it personally.

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Actually the whole thing that I wrote earlier wasn't from the Red Letter reviews. There are issues that those reviews brought to light that I hadn't previously noticed (at least not in as clear of a manner as they were pointed out, even though some of those things already seemed "off").

But most everything I typed was stuff that I just noticed on my own. Not anything from those reviews.

At what point did I contradict myself?

Yeah, I knew that.

Originally Posted by chip75

And some senators buy risque S&M dresses to wear in front of their bodyguards and eat alien pears (the sexiest fruit in the whole galaxy). It's all about repression Victorian style. I'm sure Lucas filmed lots of space trains going into space tunnels which will be restored for the BD's. And an ignited lightsaber is a metaphor for unrequited Jedi love (especially the purple one)....

Lol!

[chip75]

Originally Posted by Uxi

Often times such interpretations probably say more about the interpreter than the originally intended message.

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

I think you just called me a dirty minded 3P0.... Freudian slip anyone....

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Bluyoda

Yeah, I knew that.

You knew what? I am asking you when I contradicted myself. I didn't admit to any such contradiction. I don't care if you aren't a part of some media review crew or not. If you are going to make this kind of accusation of me, then at least have the decency to point it out. Otherwise don't say anything at all.

[Geoff D]

Wait...we're now arguing over whether Boba is Jango's son? Who in their right mind gives a flying ****?

That sort of nit-picking BS is what ruins the RLM reviews for me, and to see them held up as 'film-making 101' or whatever makes me want to puke. For every valid & objective observation that Plinkett makes, there's ten other complaints about completely trivial things which could be applied to every big-budget bit of nonsense ever made. Pfffft.

Originally Posted by Bluyoda

People complain about the same kind of films all the time, but when a more challenging film comes along they demand everything to be laid out as it's supposed to be.
I like it this way. You may call me a Lucas fanboy, or whatever. I don't care.
I just like the concept. It's more like reality, where you have to put A+B together all by yourself. It's way more complex than other films.
That's one of the things I truly enjoy about the Saga.

+1

I'd agree with you even more if I thought that Lucas had actually planned out the more obtuse story points of the prequels in an effort to make us think, but instead he hasn't got a clue. George was making it up as he went along, just as he did with the OT. So Leia is Luke's....sister? Ewwwwwwww.

What I REALLY enjoy about the prequels is that they're rich with symbolism from start to finish, and each one is a mirror of its OT counterpart (even straying into remake territory at times) which greatly enhances my enjoyment of BOTH sets of films.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by BouCoupDinkyDau

Yes, but a person with the EXACT same DNA as you cannot be your child. It's your twin. In order for someone to be your son, they have to be made from the combined DNA of a male and female host.

Not when you raise the clone as your son. That's kinda a sci-fi staple, you know.

Boba is Jango's son because that's how he was raised. It doesn't matter if he's a genetic twin.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

That sort of nit-picking BS is what ruins the RLM reviews for me, and to see them held up as 'film-making 101' or whatever makes me want to puke. For every valid & objective observation that Plinkett makes, there's ten other complaints about completely trivial things which could be applied to every big-budget bit of nonsense ever made. Pfffft.

That's why I won't even waste my time watching them.

It's just a bunch of pissy whiny fanboys turning mountains into molehills.

They need to get a hobby or do what Shatner suggested and get a life.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Uxi

This is a logical fallacy. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The OT didn't say alot of things. The OT said almost nothing about the original Jedi order. Neither Yoda nor Obi-wan gave specifics for the simple reason that Jedi orthodoxy was irrelevant to Luke, who had his rudimentary training tailored to a VERY specific goal and not much time for other finer points.

I agree that the absence of evidence does not constitute evidence. However, when we have Luke making several statements about the force being strong in his family, and with him being the only Jedi-in-training that we have in the OT, it's not hard to see where the PT would comes across as at least somewhat contradictory to this.

I disagree with the lack of importance for Yoda or Obi Wan to bring these things up to Luke. While Luke had a specific goal, the more long term goal in training Luke would be to reestablish the Jedi order. And since his father broke this particular rule, it would have a personal meaning for Luke as well.

The whole gymnastics thing... well...

That was meant in terms of Luke being trained with a Lightsaber, etc. I was comparing the spiritual understanding/enlightenment aspect to religion, and the physical training aspect to gymnastics. Perhaps it wasn't the best comparison... perhaps fencing or something else along that lines would have been a better comparison, but it's just what I thought of off the top of my head when writing the post earlier. The point I was making remains the same.

[BouCoupDinkyDau]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

I don't see why a writer would have an issue with this more so than anybody else.

I don't. This is a breakdown in communication on my end. I never should have brought it up. Again, my bad.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Wait...we're now arguing over whether Boba is Jango's son? Who in their right mind gives a flying ****?

That sort of nit-picking BS is what ruins the RLM reviews for me, and to see them held up as 'film-making 101' or whatever makes me want to puke. For every valid & objective observation that Plinkett makes, there's ten other complaints about completely trivial things which could be applied to every big-budget bit of nonsense ever made. Pfffft.

How does that ruin the RLM reviews? At no point was that issue brought up in the reviews. Whether you agree with them or not, the RLM reviews are actually a rather brilliant breakdown about the issues with the PT from a story telling perspective.

That comment, which is extreme, is not at all representative of the kinds of criticism in those reviews.... I don't even agree with that comment, and I'm on the side that the PT films could have and should have been a lot better.

Originally Posted by Beast

That's why I won't even waste my time watching them.

It's just a bunch of pissy whiny fanboys turning mountains into molehills.

They need to get a hobby or do what Shatner suggested and get a life.

No, it's nothing like that at all. And since you haven't watched them, you have no basis for making that statement.

It is a critical breakdown of the movies and why they just don't work on many levels. Not just as extensions of the story established in the OT, but how they just don't quite work in and of themselves. They've even been recognized by notable film critics (Roger Ebert linked them up on his blog, for example). You may not agree with the reviews or Roger Ebert for that matter (there have been many things that I have disagreed with him on over the years), but it's more than just some whiny fanboy crying over nothing.

You really don't need to come across as such an angry jag-off in your responses, either.

[JamesKurtovich]

I love the RLM reviews and I don't remember that being brought up.

I love this bit from the TPM review. LOL

So the conclusion is that there isn't one [referring to TPM's lack of main character]. Before the movie opened, I was really excited to hear that Scottish Actor "Ewan McDonald" was going to be playing Obi-Wan Kenobi. I thought that was a great choice and he would be perfect as the lead of this movie. But he wasn't really. He just sat on the ship and complains a lot.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by JamesKurtovich

I love the RLM reviews and I don't remember that being brought up.

I love this bit from the TPM review. LOL

I mentioned them earlier in that long post I made a page or two back.

They really do break things down brilliantly, but I do love some of the humor that is injected in there as well.

For example,in the Episode III review, in reference to the scene where Anakin is given the name Darth Vader....

"So Anakin kneels before Monster-Mash and pledges his loyalty to the grave-yard-smash."

I seriously cracked up the first time that I heard it.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

No, it's nothing like that at all. And since you haven't watched them, you have no basis for making that statement.

Sure I do. I have heard enough about their tired nitpicking and exaggerations of problems.
It's certainly not a legitimate review of the films. It's just making mountains out of molehills.
You can tear apart just about any movie with enough effort. Including so-called classics like Godfather.

It is a critical breakdown of the movies and why they just don't work on many levels. Not just as extensions of the story established in the OT, but how they just don't quite work in and of themselves. They've even been recognized by notable film critics (Roger Ebert linked them up on his blog, for example). You may not agree with the reviews or Roger Ebert for that matter (there have been many things that I have disagreed with him on over the years), but it's more than just some whiny fanboy crying over nothing.

Who cares what Roger Ebert thinks. He's become quite an ass over the years as well. Ever since Siskel died.
From letting the audience he sees movies with influence his judgement on the films. Which proves he's a terrible reviewer.
To being a huge enough jerk to say that anyone who likes a particular movie isn't sufficiantly evolved. He's no better than anyone else.

You really don't need to come across as such an angry jag-off in your responses, either.

You really don't need to read such things into my posts, as I'm hardly angry. More amused at the usual tired anti-PT nonsense.

[STARKILLER--1138]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Wait...we're now arguing over whether Boba is Jango's son? Who in their right mind gives a flying ****?

That sort of nit-picking BS is what ruins the RLM reviews for me, and to see them held up as 'film-making 101' or whatever makes me want to puke. For every valid & objective observation that Plinkett makes, there's ten other complaints about completely trivial things which could be applied to every big-budget bit of nonsense ever made. Pfffft.


+1

I'd agree with you even more if I thought that Lucas had actually planned out the more obtuse story points of the prequels in an effort to make us think, but instead he hasn't got a clue. George was making it up as he went along, just as he did with the OT. So Leia is Luke's....sister? Ewwwwwwww.

What I REALLY enjoy about the prequels is that they're rich with symbolism from start to finish, and each one is a mirror of its OT counterpart (even straying into remake territory at times) which greatly enhances my enjoyment of BOTH sets of films.

I agree with 100% of this post.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

I mentioned them earlier in that long post I made a page or two back.

They really do break things down brilliantly, but I do love some of the humor that is injected in there as well.

For example,in the Episode III review, in reference to the scene where Anakin is given the name Darth Vader....

"So Anakin kneels before Monster-Mash and pledges his loyalty to the grave-yard-smash."

I seriously cracked up the first time that I heard it.

See, proof that it's not a legitimate critique of the films.

It sounds like a bunch of idiotic teenagers sitting around while stoned and trying to make each other laugh.

Once again proof that it's not worth anyone actually bothering to waste their time with. As I said.

[Cook]

I don't know what's worse fanboys whining or people whining about fanboys whining. One man's whiner is another man's philosopher. Its all subjective.