Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[Chordata]

Originally Posted by chip75

I think if we go back and think how many models are in ANH for example there probably aren't as many as we remember. I can't think of much more than a dozen ships for example.

Good point, maybe it just seems like there are more.

[P@t_Mtl]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

I agree.

I heard about the whole thing where they almost forgot to have Obi-Wan pick up Anakin's lightsaber, and remembered at the last minute. That would have been a fairly big flub. Additionally, part of what bothered me in Episode II was the whole thing with Anakin kind of losing/breaking his lightsaber(s) left and right. While not technically a contradiction to Obi Wan giving Luke his father's lightsaber in ANH, it seems to kind of take some of the emotion and power away from that scene in a round-and-about way. Rather than it being Anakin's lightsaber... a trusty tool that he took good care of and served him well for many years, it just happened to be the last lightsaber that he used before "dying".

And it kind of gets back to a point that I made previously in a rant earlier in this thread, about how it kind of bothers me that in the prequels it is established that the Jedi shouldn't marry and have kids. Now, my initial point that I made regarding this was in relation to the issue of biology and the midichlorians (sp?). But even ignoring the midichlorian issue, this no marriage, no kids issue really works against that seen where Luke first meets Ben/Obi-Wan in ANH, in regards to his father wanting him to have the lightsaber, etc.

Ben tells Luke that his father wanted him to have this lightsaber when he (Luke) was old enough. And of course at this point Obi Wan is just making it sound like Luke's father was killed and doesn't specify that he became Vader. Wouldn't the fact that he even had kids at all, let alone "wanted" (as Obi Wan puts it) his lightsaber handed down to his son, raise some questions about why Luke's father, being a Jedi, would have even married and had kids? Now, I realize that Luke has been raised by his aunt and uncle and doesn't have much experience in life outside of the moisture farm, so I certainly don't expect him to be an inside-out expert on the Jedi. However, it's not like the Jedi are some kind of forgotten ancient civilization. It's only been 20 years or so since they were "wiped out". There should be plenty of people still alive who would have known about the Jedi, and the basics of their ways (including the no marriage/kids thing), and I would think this would have been information that Luke either would have already known, or would have come across shortly thereafter, thus raising some questions for him before discovering that Vader is his father in TESB.

Heck, there are a lot of things about that conversation that don't quite add up. Obi Wan seems to remenise about Anakin as a good friend, but he (Anakin) just comes across as being a complete jag-off in the two movies in which we see him as an adult. While they've had some good times, there was clearly a lot of ongoing frustration that Obi Wan had with Anakin that had been there for pretty much the entirety of their relationship as master and padawan. Then there's the whole comment on Anakin being a great pilot when Obi Wan first knew him. Okay, does this refer to the Pod Race? Because while they did hover above the ground, the Pods were more or less land vehicles, and not really something that they would "fly". And sure, there is the scene where young Anakin is in that ship at the end of Episode I and blows up that space station, but he more or less does that on 'accident' and at least part of the time the auto-pilot is on. This doesn't really give the indication of him being a great, trained pilot as indicated in the ANH conversation.

I understand that people will make the "certain point of view" arguement here, but frankly while that made sense in terms of not flat out telling Luke that Vader is his father, when we have to start applying that to everything that is spoken (not only in that initial conversation with Luke, but how many, many things int he OT 'line up' with what we see in the PT), it just becomes sad and weak after a while.

And that's the real problem. There are a lot of things that aren't necessarily 'continuity errors', but the logic between how one connects to the other is pretty weak, and forces us to make some sweeping assumptions about how this all can add up (i.e. Luke having no knowledge or just not questioning the rule of Jedi not being married or having kids, and no one around him who he meets and who knows he is training to be a Jedi like his father either having no knowledge or not questioning it either). A lot of people have to really be in the dark about a lot of information for that to happen.

Some points are valid but in fact the order of the Jedi is not that well known to the general public. People know that they have powers, they come to them to fix trouble and ask for advice but I doubt most people in the galaxy would be familiar with the rules of the order and what they actually do.

I think most people who have a problem with what is going on in the movies don't know much about the extended universe of Star Wars. Obi-wan & Anakin have a much better relation that show up in 4 hours of movies. In the books Anakin is not as bad as you see him in Attack Of The Clones or Revenge Of The Sith. In fact just go check the releationship they have in The Clone Wars and that wil give you a much better clue. They are true brothers. Sure my own brother drive me nuts sometimes, just like I am sure I must drive him nuts as well. But he is my brother and if someone came to me 20 years after not seeing him, I would very mostly recall the good times and not the bad times.

The main trouble is that people want to see everything explain in the Star Wars movies and I wonder why? If you are not able to see that Obi-wan and Anakin are true brothers, well I am sorry but I see it even in just 4 hours of movies and not reading the books or watching The Clone Wars

[Geoff D]

There's some lovely model work throughout the PT. IIRC there are more model shots in Phantom Menace alone than in the entire OT.

[Chordata]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

There's some lovely model work throughout the PT. IIRC there are more model shots in Phantom Menace alone than in the entire OT.

That's what everyone keeps saying - I certainly have no basis to dispute it, but I'm just amazed it's true.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

The main trouble is that people want to see everything explain in the Star Wars movies and I wonder why? If you are not able to see that Obi-wan and Anakin are true brothers, well I am sorry but I see it even in just 4 hours of movies and not reading the books or watching The Clone Wars

But isn't that a case of cause and effect? The reason their relationship is strengthened in the EU and The Clone Wars is because it didn't quite come off in the movies? I've always thought their relationship was tenuous at best.
Maybe Anakin blamed Obi-Wan over the death of Qui-Gon? Maybe he thought Padme was secretly in love with Obi? Who knows? They tried to introduce the jealousy angle in Ep.III. A love triangle might have spiced it up a bit more lol.

Remember the Jedi are based on Coruscant, Tatooine is a long way away in the Outer Rim. You might have bumped into a Jedi in the Capital but Tatooine? Unlikely.

[JamesKurtovich]

Yeah, they really screwed up Anakin Skywalker in the prequels.

He was never a hero, a good friend, or anything like that. (Maybe he was in a book somewhere!)

If the books are better at telling the story about Anakin then the movies should have had better writing with regards to the main character.

[Geoff D]

Dynamo, you seem a little fixated on the 'family' issue. The Jedi don't actively procreate as it goes against their main principles, so how do they keep their order going? It's true that while the midichlorian thing does seem to turn the Force into a genetic hand-me-down, Phantom Menace also gives us the more mystical get-out-clause of Anakin coming into existence because the midis made it happen. Quite simply, you won't find every Force sensitive being in the galaxy inside the Jedi Temple, as they are born elsewhere all the time.

Even if we look at it from a purely genetic viewpoint it doesn't have to be Jedi who are doing the intergalactic knocking up; who's to say that the offspring of two low-level (so low that they're not noticed by the Jedi) Force sensitives won't be more powerful than the parents due to the genetic mix? On a more mystical level the midis may give a few normal pregnancies a helping hand too.

In their role of galactic peace-keepers the Jedi travel the stars quite a bit and, wary of the no-attachment rule, they devised a test for Force sensitivity which enables them to identify potential candidates. Given that the Republic covered tens of thousands of systems, it's not a stretch to assume that the Jedi would keep their numbers ticking over quite nicely.

As for Luke not knowing about all this, who cares? He clearly has no idea of what the Force is in the original film, so why would he be clued up on Jedi mating rituals or the lack thereof? It's obvious that Uncle Owen has kept a lot from Luke, and given that Tatooine is at the arse-end of space anyways I doubt that he's heard much of the Jedi at all.

[greg_achen]

Are midichlorians the cause of Force sensitivity or a result of Force sensitivity? Something to ponder.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Imrahil2001

Even if this is true--I don't deny that recessive genes could produce a full-fledged Jedi--that line will end when he becomes a Jedi.

The Jedi are breeding themselves out of existence. Short of donating their sex cells and setting up birthing programs somewhere else, ala the Bene Gesserit, they're not going to be around after awhile.

Okay, that line would end. But in a galaxy composed of tens of thousands of systems another would crop up just as easily. And if the midis ever felt that things were getting too slack, they'd get involved too.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by O_V_N

That's what everyone keeps saying - I certainly have no basis to dispute it, but I'm just amazed it's true.

Pod race arena, Federation capital ships, most trade federation hardware (except battle droids), Naboo streets, Naboo starfighters...

all examples of models in Episode I.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by Imrahil2001

Even if this is true--I don't deny that recessive genes could produce a full-fledged Jedi--that line will end when he becomes a Jedi.

The Jedi are breeding themselves out of existence. Short of donating their sex cells and setting up birthing programs somewhere else, ala the Bene Gesserit, they're not going to be around after awhile.

The Midi-chlorian exist in all living things though. So no, they're not breeding themselves into extinction.

[Uxi]

nah, the Jedi are quite willing to pass up even extraordinary freaks just because they're too old, and no doubt many families wouldn't choose to sever all their ties with their progeny to join the Jedi. Untrained, they're not much to be concerned about, though it's possible there's an Akira-type freak popping up every couple thousand years and a few more 'wild talents' here and there. Then there's no doubt that some are expelled from the order as Obi-wan warns about in AOTC, though voluntary resignations are much fewer ("the lost twenty"). Any siblings, cousins, and the like from their membership would be possible, too.

All that would indicate the Jedi are more concerned with proper training than in just boosting their numbers. When they're limited to their 'marshal' type duties, that's fine... it's only when they need to fight a galactic war that their numbers aren't sufficient.

[JamesKurtovich]

They should film a new scene in Ben's house where he's checking Luke's midichlorian count. Just one more change to the OT for continuity.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

The main trouble is that people want to see everything explain in the Star Wars movies and I wonder why? If you are not able to see that Obi-wan and Anakin are true brothers, well I am sorry but I see it even in just 4 hours of movies and not reading the books or watching The Clone Wars

I want to see things explained in the movies because that's what good story telling is all about. Not that I am knocking EU entirely, but I shouldn't have to look into these 'side stories' in order for the main story to make sense.

The prequels were meant to show what came before the OT, so they should do just that.

Perhaps Obi Wan and Anakin were "brothers" and we are only seeing them at the point when there is a lot of tension, but that should have been handled better. Other than a couple of vague references to supposed past 'adventures', there's little to indicate that there is this near and dear brotherly relationship in the events or the acting in the PT.

For one thing, Episode 1 was pretty much a complete waste in that Anakin was a child and not even in training yet. There was really no reason why we even had to see him before he became a Jedi. This whole prophecy thing was pointless (again, something else that never comes up in the OT, even after Luke finds out that Vader is his father... why was a prophecy that isn't very well explained even needed? Why couldn't he have just been a fallen Jedi that redeems himself when defeating the Emperor?).

There's little reason why Anakin couldn't have just been an ordinary, but highly regarded, Jedi who eventually falls to the dark side. They could have started out with him older where Episode 1 picks up and had Obi Wan already in the process of training him from the get-go. And they could have given Anakin more of a nice demeanor (sp?) to begin with, and gradually had him make his way to the dark side.

Many things in the PT could have either been better explained or simply set up in a more logical, simpler way as to not require a bunch of explanation. These are meant to be 'saturday afternoon serials' afterall, not deep think pieces... so why leave a bunch of unanswered or vaguely answered questions that the audience has to continue to ponder. Additionally, GL could have done things better so the explanations in the OT actually line up better with the events in the PT. That way we don't have to take almost every plot point and look at it from a selective "certain point of view" in order for it to add up.

If you like the PT, fine. I'm glad somebody does. There are aspects that I like about it, but as a whole it was just very weak story telling.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Dynamo, you seem a little fixated on the 'family' issue. The Jedi don't actively procreate as it goes against their main principles, so how do they keep their order going? It's true that while the midichlorian thing does seem to turn the Force into a genetic hand-me-down, Phantom Menace also gives us the more mystical get-out-clause of Anakin coming into existence because the midis made it happen. Quite simply, you won't find every Force sensitive being in the galaxy inside the Jedi Temple, as they are born elsewhere all the time.

Even if we look at it from a purely genetic viewpoint it doesn't have to be Jedi who are doing the intergalactic knocking up; who's to say that the offspring of two low-level (so low that they're not noticed by the Jedi) Force sensitives won't be more powerful than the parents due to the genetic mix? On a more mystical level the midis may give a few normal pregnancies a helping hand too.

In their role of galactic peace-keepers the Jedi travel the stars quite a bit and, wary of the no-attachment rule, they devised a test for Force sensitivity which enables them to identify potential candidates. Given that the Republic covered tens of thousands of systems, it's not a stretch to assume that the Jedi would keep their numbers ticking over quite nicely.

As for Luke not knowing about all this, who cares? He clearly has no idea of what the Force is in the original film, so why would he be clued up on Jedi mating rituals or the lack thereof? It's obvious that Uncle Owen has kept a lot from Luke, and given that Tatooine is at the arse-end of space anyways I doubt that he's heard much of the Jedi at all.

Well, while at one point my main beef was with the Midichlorians issue, that's not so much the point that I was making in my last post.

The issue that I was expressing in that post really has nothing to do with the midichlorian/biological issue that I brougt up previously. And it's not so much that I am hung up on family.... it's that the OT is hung up on family by way of Luke repeatedly emphasizing thoughout it that he wants to be a Jedi like his father, upon discovering that he has a sister who is also strong with the force, etc. Family is a running theme in the OT, with a lot of positive emphasis put on it, and at no point is it ever even hinted at that a Jedi having family was 'frowned up', much less forbidden, in the old republic. Then we get to the prequels, and it's this forbidden thing.

That's the point that I am making. In backtracking and trying to tell a backstory to the OT, a story that puts a lot of emphasis on the family of a Jedi-in-training (Luke), and then telling a story that forbids family, that is a contradiction in terms of the concept, if nothing else. Now, technically it can be argued that despite this, it is still possible for the events in the OT, as they exist, could still follow the events of the PT as they exist, and things could still happen this way, and yeah, they could, but again, it's still just a contradicition in themes and concepts. It just raises a lot of questions that could easily be avoided by way of not making having kids for a Jedi be a completely forbidden thing. Simply having other Jedi who are able to balance family life with Jedi life better, and having Anakin be in a position of letting his emotions get the better of him would have been more than sufficient, while not creating questions like the ones that we have here.

It's pretty clear that Lucas has the very barebones (and mostly superficial) basics of the PT mapped out when starting to write them, but then as it started to create the "filler", he didn't think a lot of those things out very well and just left a lot of things that may not be plotholes, but are certainly logic-holes.

[JamesKurtovich]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

I want to see things explained in the movies because that's what good story telling is all about. Not that I am knocking EU entirely, but I shouldn't have to look into these 'side stories' in order for the main story to make sense.

The prequels were meant to show what came before the OT, so they should do just that.

Perhaps Obi Wan and Anakin were "brothers" and we are only seeing them at the point when there is a lot of tension, but that should have been handled better. Other than a couple of vague references to supposed past 'adventures', there's little to indicate that there is this near and dear brotherly relationship in the events or the acting in the PT.

Agreed concerning the relationship of Obi-Wan and Anakin. That is one of the problems with the PT. The audience is expected to accept way too much of what they're told. We never see the characters grow or develop... Instead, we see a lot of hanging out on couches (LOL) or standing around and talking about stuff that already happened off-screen sometime. In the beginning of AOTC, they spend a couple minutes attempting to establish a good relationship between the two before having Anakin go full creepy pervert ass for the rest of the movie.

[GuruAskew]

I've said the same thing in the "Superman" thread: it will be nice to see some actual news on this thing as opposed to a bunch of nerdy nonsense.

[chip75]

Perhaps it was frowned upon or even forbidden that two Jedi's should produce offspring? Due to the power the child might inherit the Jedi Order decided it would be better if nature's lottery (the Midi-chlorians) decide who would be bestowed with strong Force wielding powers.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by GuruAskew

I've said the same thing in the "Superman" thread: it will be nice to see some actual news on this thing as opposed to a bunch of nerdy nonsense.

Frankly, so would I. But there's not much actual news to discuss. We only know what the street-date will be, the number of discs in the set, and a couple of very small pieces of info on specific extras (i.e. that deleted seen from Return of the Jedi). Most of the bonus material is still unknown and ambiguous at this point.

How can we discuss news that doesn't exist?

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by shelldweller

3D or not i really look forward to see "the Phantom Menace" in theaters again...
Hope some issues like the Yoda-puppet will be fixed but I´ll enjoy it anyway!

The release date is a little strange since it´s less than half a year after the blu-ray release.

I am sure it will perform just fine at the theater. But will suffer from the problem all post production 3D converted films do, darkened picture and the effect 'may' come off poorly (i.e. Alice in Wonderland). But we'll see.

More concerning I think is the changes Lucas will make to all of the films. The OT fans are not the only ones whom should be thinking "Oh, what the f is he going to change now?" Lucas needs to give people a REASON to go see the prequel trilogy again so soon, and I don't think 3D is a very good reason (especially if you can watch it in HD at home too). There is already the change of Yoda (we basically know that for sure) in TPM. My guess there are ZERO changes (other than Yoda) in the blu rays coming out this fall and a whole bunch being planned for the 3D releases. Just a guess though.

[GuruAskew]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

We only know what the street-date will be

I don't think we even know the street date. I think Amazon.com just picked the last week of September and will adjust it accordingly if LucasFilm announces one of the earlier weeks. By playing it safe with the release date they get to deliver a happy surprise to customers about the product arriving early vs. the "delay" email they would send if they picked the first week of September and it turned out to be wrong.

A week or two ago I noticed that the thread title had been changed to reflect the 27th and I went to starwars.com and I couldn't find anything more specific than "September".