Star Wars: The Complete Saga (1977-2005)

[octagon]

Originally Posted by shelldweller

Let me make my point. If a filmmaker releases multiple versions of his movie and let the audiences decide what version they want to watch I´m fine with it... GL doesn´t intend to release the saga in multiple versions and that should be respected! It does not belong to the audience; it belongs to the artist. If he decides to change his work, he should be allowed to do so.

Is there some secret prize for being the billionth person to knock down an argument absolutely nobody is making?

[Bluyoda]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

That doesn't make sense. 90% of the films are special effects. No explosions, no light sabers, no CGI, no blue/green screen? There wouldn't be much left and it would require 80% additional footage on each disc. Not gonna' happen.

Many years ago, I saw Tom Holman (of THX fame) give a demo of a Star Wars scene where first he played it with just the original location sound. Then he added the looped dialog. Then the foley effects. Then a first layer and second layer of additional sound effects. Finally the music. It was a great demo that demonstrated how each level of audio contributes to the film in ways that aren't necessarily obvious when we're watching the movie. I'd love to see an extra that includes such a demo.

Hell yeah! That's the kind of bonus material I'd love to see included!

Originally Posted by Mr.Sparkle

It's official, they're being released SEPTEMBER 16th!!

http://www.starwars.com/themovies/sa...ray/index.html

That's awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This way I'll be able to see them before October!!!
Can't wait!

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Why? I'm not saying these should replace the newest special editions or whatever, but it would be nice to get the 'original versions' in the best looking manner possible. I don't see why this would be any more horrible than if Lucas simply remastered the UOT but still composited the effects the old fashioned way with all of the 'warts' that go with them.

Even if you prefer the newest versions with the changes, additions, etc, this wouldn't prevent you from having those. I fail to see how something existing along the lines of what I am saying would prevent you from enjoying your preferred versions.

Sure, why not?

Originally Posted by danny_boy

Sorry but there is a great deal of misinformation in your post:
You say that 35mm film has 4k resolution.
Well the camera negative has 4k resolution!
But the camera negative is not what you see in the cinema.
Unless you want to watch a 4k camera negative being projected.....and that would not be a pretty sight!



What you see in the cinema are the release prints which are at least 4 generations removed from the original camera negative.
And these release prints have a line per picture height(lpph) "resolution" of just 700-800 lines on average:

This international study performed in several countries confirmed the above:


http://www.etconsult.com/papers/Tech...Resolution.pdf

And this was their conclusion:
Film theoretically has very good resolution capabilities. What is delivered to the theatre is another story. If we believe the ITU tests, then images captured at almost 2400 lines per picture height on the camera negative deliver significantly degraded on screen resolution through the projection system – in the range of 500 – 800 lines per picture height. 500 lines corresponds to about 9 line pairs per degree from 2 screen heights.


So George Lucas was comparing the end product(i.e the release prints shown in cinemas) to the end product of a digital workflow(images recorded on HD cams to the final result projected on a digital projector).

And in this respect a film recorded digitally at 1080*1920 is better or even superior to a 35mm interpositive release print.

Well, some people just don't want to listen.

It's not as simple as comparing the numbers of lines/pixels to each other.

[Gold Ranger]

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

I Agree. I'm all for anything that makes the two trilogies fit together better. Be it story tweaks, visuals or whatever. Now that there's the chance to go back in and rework all of the films at once, for one cohesive release, I say do what needs to be done. That goes for either trilogy. Just don't screw it up this time.

2 of the biggest things that really screw up continuity between trilogies are:

1 - Yoda telling Obi-Wan "No, there is another" in responce to Obi-Wan saying that "That boy was our last Hope.
I feel that the Scene in Episode 3 should've played out as them still being chased by the newly established empire, Padme' gives birth to Luke, Yoda rushes him to Obi-Wan and tells him to leave so that Obi has NO knowledge of Leia.

2 - more of a personal idea, but Vader and Anakin should NOT be known to us until the reveal in Episode 5

[shelldweller]

Originally Posted by octagon

Is there some secret prize for being the billionth person to knock down an argument absolutely nobody is making?

Yes, the enjoyment of six brilliant movies.

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by Kinetic_Blue

2 of the biggest things that really screw up continuity between trilogies are:

1 - Yoda telling Obi-Wan "No, there is another" in responce to Obi-Wan saying that "That boy was our last Hope.
I feel that the Scene in Episode 3 should've played out as them still being chased by the newly established empire, Padme' gives birth to Luke, Yoda rushes him to Obi-Wan and tells him to leave so that Obi has NO knowledge of Leia.

2 - more of a personal idea, but Vader and Anakin should NOT be known to us until the reveal in Episode 5

Yup, that scene always bothered me too. It's as if Ben knows nothing of Leia. Yet he goes on to later explain to Luke that Leia is his Sister and why they were seperated. I never bought that Ben wasn't aware of Leia.

Hmmm... I like the idea of not knowing Anakin is Vader. Too bad we can't unlearn what we already know. Unfortunately, with the OT being made first, we learn that Luke's Father's name was Anakin in RotJ. So even if they never show Palpatine dubbing Anakin as Darth Vader or show Anakin in the suit...

[bboisvert]

Originally Posted by danny_boy

Agreed.

This is a screen shot from a screening of an original 1977 technicolour print shown at the senator theater in Baltimore last summer.

Now here is a scene which features optical compositing.

And whilst it is aesthetically beautiful,you can see the grain!

[Show spoiler]

Grain in that particular shot is going to be exaggerated to begin with, because it has been blown-up.

Check when Ben hands Luke the saber:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukbTFgQ4jxs
at roughly 1:06. Notice how (for no apparent reason) there's a cut and the scene's composition is tightened up quite a bit?

3PO's metal hand wasn't in place, and you could see his human hand during the lightsaber scene as filmed. (If you have a copy of the original Star Wars Storybook, you can see it.) They solved it by zooming in, which would have exaggerated any grain in that scene.

(In short, that shot isn't the best way to judge the quality of the film... because of production issues, they had to mess with it.)

[JamesKurtovich]

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

So, are you saying the six films aren't supposed to be one coherent story? Or making them moreso would be a bad idea?

The PT feels more like it was loosely based on the OT rather than what actually occurred. Almost like it was a spin-off.

[kamphausd1]

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

So, are you saying the six films aren't supposed to be one coherent story? Or making them moreso would be a bad idea?

That's just the problem, they are supposed to be one coherent story. What we actually got on the other hand though, that was something else.

[IndefinentBlu]

Originally Posted by Beast

I would love that. Digibooks are awesome. But I really don't see it happening.

Neither do i. I think that what we will get in September is the final product i don't forsee any more releases other than the individual 3d releases.

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by JamesKurtovich

The PT feels more like it was loosely based on the OT rather than what actually occurred. Almost like it was a spin-off.

The PT definitely does not feel the same. That said, I think the bigger problem is the continuity issues. Not only between trilogies, but within them as well. I think it may feel like a spin-off becuase they were made so far apart with such a huge difference in technologies.

Whatever the reason, I think brining them closer together is a good idea. Fix the continuity/plot hole issues and make them vuisually more alike. If that means updating the OT a bit while at the same time making the PT look a bit older, so be it.

Originally Posted by kamphausd1

That's just the problem, they are supposed to be one coherent story. What we actually got on the other hand though, that was something else.

But my issue is that many people place blame completely on the PT or the OT. There are issues between trilogies. There are issues within each trilogy. There are even issues within each film. Now is GL's chance to actually fix things in the context of the story in it's entirety (at least in terms of the films). He should do so.

[P@t_Mtl]

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

All that really doesn't matter. It doesn't change the fact that Ben & Yoda were better choices than Luke. Ben & Yoda had the clones to deal with, Luke had Stromtroopers. Ben & Yoda would have at least had each other as back up. Luke had noone. Sure, you could argue that Luke had the Rebel Alliance. But in the end, it was Luke, Vader & Palpatine by themselves. The Rebel Alliance didn't really get Luke there. Vader brought Luke to Palpatine. The Rebels were focused on the Empire as a whole. The Vader, Palpatine & Luke issue was a personal one. As far as one on one confrontations go, waiting for Luke was the worst choice. Remember, Luke technically never won a confrontation. Vader beat him on Cloud City. Had Vader not turned on Palpatine, Luke would have been killed at Palpatine's hand aboard the second Death Star. The Empire was defeated by the Rebellion. Looking at it that way, had the timing not worked the way it did, the Rebellion would have killed Luke along with blowing up the Death Star. In all reality, Luke had little to do with anything other than Vader's return to the good side. And that came about by his getting beat up so bad. Vader's return was not in Ben & Yoda's plan (As I stated before, it was completely out of the question). So technically, Ben & Yoda's plan failed. Which is my point.

In many ways you are right! But I think that some of the reasons can be explain this way :

1. Ben just could not kill Vader, for him it was his brother Anakin, even in Episode 3 he could not do it and I don't think he could have done it 20 years later

2. Yoda by that time just probably felt he was pass his prime, he also had a shot at Palpatine but could not do it either. Doubt is a terrible thing inside someone's mind

3. Luke had his own plan for Vader which wasn't about killing but saving him. He was still the only one who felt there was still something of Anakin inside him while everyone else saw only a machine.

Ben & Yoda figured Luke was their best chance for going at Vader & Palpatine. Their mistake was thinking he would kill Vader, mostly Ben when he himself admit's he could not kill Anakin, how can you expect Luke to kill his father? But the plan was always redemption. The story of Star Wars is more about Vader/Anakin then any other character in the story. Does it make sense, can you redem evil, can you redem Hitler for example? Star Wars is more fantasy then reality so you can sort of have this idea that in real life just would not work so well.

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

In many ways you are right! But I think that some of the reasons can be explain this way :

1. Ben just could not kill Vader, for him it was his brother Anakin, even in Episode 3 he could not do it and I don't think he could have done it 20 years later

2. Yoda by that time just probably felt he was pass his prime, he also had a shot at Palpatine but could not do it either. Doubt is a terrible thing inside someone's mind

3. Luke had his own plan for Vader which wasn't about killing but saving him. He was still the only one who felt there was still something of Anakin inside him while everyone else saw only a machine.

Ben & Yoda figured Luke was their best chance for going at Vader & Palpatine. Their mistake was thinking he would kill Vader, mostly Ben when he himself admit's he could not kill Anakin, how can you expect Luke to kill his father? But the plan was always redemption. The story of Star Wars is more about Vader/Anakin then any other character in the story. Does it make sense, can you redem evil, can you redem Hitler for example? Star Wars is more fantasy then reality so you can sort of have this idea that in real life just would not work so well.

While you are correct in what you say, my point is that Ben & Yoda should have went after Vader & Palpatine a lot sooner. Waiting for Luke to grow up & hopefully learn enough (from two old men) to defeat two people that they couldn't was just a bad plan.

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

While you are correct in what you say, my point is that Ben & Yoda should have went after Vader & Palpatine a lot sooner. Waiting for Luke to grow up & hopefully learn enough (from two old men) to defeat two people that they couldn't was just a bad plan.

Well maybe they did try over the years, you think they were the only ones that tried to assassinate the emperor? I admit it's a decent-sized plothole but definitely not the worst one.

[P@t_Mtl]

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

While you are correct in what you say, my point is that Ben & Yoda should have went after Vader & Palpatine a lot sooner. Waiting for Luke to grow up & hopefully learn enough (from two old men) to defeat two people that they couldn't was just a bad plan.

Yeah that in reality would have made more sense. Of course that sort of kill the entire story

But I don't think Ben could have done it, not the way he feel's about Anakin. His mistake was hoping Anakin would die on that planet, he just left cause he really could not watch it happen. Yoda however should have gone for it. First go after Vader and then go for Palpatine, too bad he pick exile instead.

[kamphausd1]

Originally Posted by shelldweller

If he decides to change his work, he should be allowed to do so.

Yes, you're right, they are his movies and he should be allowed to. Lot's of director's do it, and as octagon already pointed out to you, nobody has ever argued that he shouldn't (at least I don't think). But what that has to do with trying to erase the originals from existence and stubbornly refusing to give the consumer the option between versions, I still don't know.

Originally Posted by shelldweller

GL doesn´t intend to release the saga in multiple versions and that should be respected!

You know what, you're right. We should respect that. Yeah, we should all just sit back and respect the fact that he adamantly refuses to give the important, classic and groundbreaking versions the proper treatment they so rightfully deserve and never speak another word of it again. Yeah, good thinking, why didn't that ever occur to me before?

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

Yeah that in reality would have made more sense. Of course that sort of kill the entire story

But I don't think Ben could have done it, not the way he feel's about Anakin. His mistake was hoping Anakin would die on that planet, he just left cause he really could not watch it happen. Yoda however should have gone for it. First go after Vader and then go for Palpatine, too bad he pick exile instead.

We see Yoda go nuts with a lightsaber TWICE in the entire saga, it could well be that that was the climax of his power and after that he was no longer capable of attempting to kill Palpatine again, Grand Master or not.

[OG Pooh]

Originally Posted by Darth Anakin

Well maybe they did try over the years, you think they were the only ones that tried to assassinate the emperor? I admit it's a decent-sized plothole but definitely not the worst one.

I never said it was the worst plot hole. I just said it was a bad plan. This discussion actually came up while attempting to figure out exactly how much training Luke got while on Dagobah (how long he was there).

Just wondering, what do you think the worst plot hole is?

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

Yeah that in reality would have made more sense. Of course that sort of kill the entire story

But I don't think Ben could have done it, not the way he feel's about Anakin. His mistake was hoping Anakin would die on that planet, he just left cause he really could not watch it happen. Yoda however should have gone for it. First go after Vader and then go for Palpatine, too bad he pick exile instead.

Agreed. To be honest, I'm sure Ben thought Anakin had died on Mustafar.

[IndefinentBlu]

Originally Posted by Darth Anakin

Well maybe they did try over the years, you think they were the only ones that tried to assassinate the emperor? I admit it's a decent-sized plothole but definitely not the worst one.

I don't think Yoda did anything he was stranded on Dagobah which is a sith planet he masked himself in the darkside energies of the planet to hide from Vader's jedi purge campaign.
As for Kenobi i think he may have had a hand in helping other jedi escape but that's it i don't think any of them has seen each other since ROTS.

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

I never said it was the worst plot hole. I just said it was a bad plan. This discussion actually came up while attempting to figure out exactly how much training Luke got while on Dagobah (how long he was there).

Just wondering, what do you think the worst plot hole is?

The way the Skywalkers were handled. They don't really explain Anakin's origin or give a realistic portrayal of why Padme would fall in love with him or even just accept him slaughtering Sand people and dozens of children. Not to mention Anakin should've been able to use the Force and his own instincts to realize he didn't Force choke Padme to death. Oh and I didn't like how little training Luke got, what was it, 2 months' worth?

[JamesKurtovich]

Originally Posted by OG Pooh

The PT definitely does not feel the same. That said, I think the bigger problem is the continuity issues. Not only between trilogies, but within them as well. I think it may feel like a spin-off becuase they were made so far apart with such a huge difference in technologies.

Whatever the reason, I think brining them closer together is a good idea. Fix the continuity/plot hole issues and make them vuisually more alike. If that means updating the OT a bit while at the same time making the PT look a bit older, so be it.

Yeah.. they look way different. I would have appreciated a little less CGI for more realism and for the actors' sake but that's just me...

Do you mean like removing Ben's line, "I thought I could teach him like Yoda taught me," for improving continuity? I was very disappointed to find that Obi-Wan wasn't Yoda's pupil (in a way he was but not in any kind of special way that was implied) in the PT and a new character was invented for that. I agree when Plinkett said that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan should have been combined into one character named Obi-Wan since I can't think of a reason for Qui-Gon existing except for providing a sad death at the end.