Does the Large Hadron Collider worry you ?

[quexos]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

It seems to me the entire argument comes down to whether black holes evaporate or not:

Exactly, you pinpointed the whole issue. Both sides admit Micro Black Holes can be created by the LHC so it's not even an issue of whether the machine can or cannot create them. One side says they will evaporate as soon as they are created, the other says they may not. And to complete your nice pinpointing of the issue, in all honesty NO side knows for sure, which is what is worrying and the other slightly worrying fact is that we are not talking about one side of savvy scientists vs a side of regular guys like you and me. It's scientists on both sides. The only positive element in this is that the "pro LHC" side outnumbers the "con" side so we can hope that a bigger number of smart brains knows better than the smaller number of opposites just as smart brains.

If one can appreciate this equation, one can get at least a little worried.

[dialog_gvf]

But, the argument for why they don't seems to rely on evaporation occuring at or below the event horizon.

I was under the impression the mechanism was virtual particle creation OUTSIDE the event horizon.

Even in free space, virtual particle/anti-particles arise. Usually they recombine and disappear, but when that happens just outside an event horizon, there is a chance one particle falls in forcing its dual to become real.

Heck, the gravitational stresses near the horizon of an mBH may be enough for spontaneous photon creation.

Gary

[jkwest]

[U4K61]

A history

• Aristotle, 340 B.C. Earth was round and came between sun and moon to caused luner eclipse. North Star lower in sky when one goes further south. Earth was stationay and at the center of the universe.
• Ptolemy, 2nd century, Earth surrounded by eight spheres. The Aristotelian/Ptolemaic theory adopted by Christian church.
• St. Augustine, 354 - 430, The City of God, notes that civilization is progressing.
• Nicholas Copernicus, 1514, the sun was stationary orbited by the earth and planets.
• Galileo, 1609, used the telescope to view moons orbiting Jupiter.
• Johannes Kepler, suggested a planet's orbit is elliptical and not circular.
• Ole Christensen Romer, 1676, light travels at a finite speed of 140,000mps(corrected to 186,282mps).
• Sir Isaac Newton, 1687, Philosphiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica. The three laws of motion: 1. the law of inertia, 2. F = MA, 3. for every action there is an equal and opposite re-action. Universal Law of Gravitation, a force of attraction that exists between any two objects that have mass. The greater mass, the greater the force of attraction. At twice the distance, the force of attraction is one quarter.
• Clerk Maxwell, 1865, unifies the theories of electricity and magnetism.
• Edwin Hubble, 1929, observed that the universe is expanding.

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[U4K61]

Stephen Hawking states an important inverse proportion between the mass of a black hole and its temperature. "A black hole with a mass a few times that of the sun would have a [non-zero] temperature of only one ten millionth of a degree above absolute zero... the lower the mass of the black hole, the higher its temperature... and rate of emission"

A black hole with the mass of a few times that of the sun would require 1 x10^66 years to evaporate completely and beginning only when the Big Bang background microwave radiation, currently 2.7 K, dropped to a temperature lower then non-zero value the black hole itself. "A primordial black hole with an initial mass of a thousand milliion tons would have a lifetime roughly equal to the age of the universe" about (1 or 2) x10^10.

By this, a zero mass black hole would have infinite temperature, following the inverse proportion to the holes mass, and evoprate instantly, an impossibility, but shows the relationship between mass/temperature/lifetime. The tiny black hole created the LHC would evaporate 'almost' as fast as it is very hot with a very low mass.

Low mass + scorching high temperature = a very short life.

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[quexos]

Originally Posted by Craig Ruchman

Post 2 of 2.
A black hole with the mass of a few times that of the sun would require 1 x10^66 years to evaporate completely - very long time (and once the microwave radiation dropped enouf) "A primirdial black hole with an initial mass of a thousand milliion tons would have a fifetime roughly equal to the age of the universe" only 1 x10^10.
Without going into advance math, a zero mass black hole would evoprate instantly. The littel hole created the HC would evaporate almost as fast. Low mass + scorching high temperature = a very very short life.

Remember that at best, all this is theoretical, there has never been actual measurements of black holes so we assume mathematical models that fit as much as possible observation and experiment but we only have theories and no substantial facts.

On the topic of black holes, how can such thing have any kind of calculable mass ? considering that within the event horizon the space/time curvature is infinite meaning that the laws of physics don't apply anymore.

[crackinhedz]

I can think of a lot more frightening ways to die than the planet being swallowed into a black hole.

...death from emphysema or being eaten by a shark to name a few.

[U4K61]

If you were in a ship orbiting a star that became a black hole, the ship would sail on and on in orbit as if nothing happened. Gravity at any given distance from its point mass remains the same as before. It is just bunched together, to perhaps zero volume - a singularity.
Kepler's three Laws of Planetary Motion
Gravity
Inverse Square Law

The singularity of black holes point out faults or limitations with the physics models we now have, mainly infinite density in a zero volume, the yin/yang of zero and infinity. The Riemann Sphere where North is a point at infinity and the south pole is 0 and touches the origin on the complex plain, is one way to equate 0 and infinity and allows us to deal whith 1/0 = infinity and 1/infinity = 0. We are going to need more general theories, such as the quantom theory of gravity to tie it all together. Perhaps one day, black holes won't be looked on as singularties. And hopefully the LHC will answer part of that.
Riemann Sphere

In ancient times it was thought that Q, the rational numbers a/b, b ~= 0 was enouf untill the Pythagorean theorm (a^2 + b^2 = c^2) applied on a simple square whose sides measured 1, s=1, 1^2+1^2 = 2 forced taking the square root of 2, the squares diagonal. The square root of 2 produces 1.414213562, a number that can not be representd by Q. This lead to the discovery of Irrational Numbers, numbers with non-repeating decimals, and the first step up the ladder of infinity. Looks like black holes are doing the same thing again, and forcing us to think outside of the box.

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[quexos]

Originally Posted by Craig Ruchman

That's what makes black holes so special. They point out faults or limitations with the physics models we now have. We need more general theories, such as the quantom theory of gravity to tie it all together. Perhaps one day, black holes won't be looked on as singularties. And hopefully the LHC will answer part of that.

That's the irony of the situation, the LHC which could generate a black hole killing us all is more likely going to generate answers helping us better understand the nature of those space monsters.

I have read Hawking and as inspiring as he is, I prefer the research made by such scientists as Brian Greene. String Theory seems to have more possibilities than General Relativity or I should rather say it can resume where General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics have left off. The first big goal that seems to be within String Theory's reach is the unification of the 4 forces within a single big mathematical framework. You should read Brian Greene's Elegant Universe if you have the chance.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by quexos

On the topic of black holes, how can such thing have any kind of calculable mass ? considering that within the event horizon the space/time curvature is infinite meaning that the laws of physics don't apply anymore.

Conservation of energy.

[U4K61]

Originally Posted by quexos

I have read Hawking and as inspiring as he is, I prefer the research made by such scientists as Brian Greene. String Theory seems to have more possibilities than General Relativity or I should rather say it can resume where General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics have left off. The first big goal that seems to be within String Theory's reach is the unification of the 4 forces within a single big mathematical framework. You should read Brian Greene's Elegant Universe if you have the chance.

I am currently reading Rodger Penrose's book - The Road to Reality. I can only cover a few pages now and then. Of intrerst to me is his work on hyperbolic geometry and the ladder of infinity. It took him eight years to write it, and it's likely to take me at least that long to finish reading it!

[WriteSimply]

I say turn that thing on. If it anything goes wrong, it'll bring about world peace.


fuad

[stockstar1138]

1. While nearly every scientist agrees this thing has the ability to cause a black hole, there is nothing to say that one will actually be created with the LHC.

2. If a black hole is created by the LHC, a large majority of scientists agree that it will go away nearly immediatly.

I say go for it, the scientific importance of this is greater than the miniscule chance that we all die. Not to go into religion, but my Christian beliefs lend me to believe that this thing is not an issue. This thing could suck Jesus back into our diminsion possibly, which i guess would be pretty cool

[quexos]

Originally Posted by stockstar1138

This thing could suck Jesus back into our diminsion possibly, which i guess would be pretty cool

OMG you are killing me man ! I'm laughing so hard. God do you imagine the faces of all those scientists if Jesus was "sucked back" into our world and just showed up in front of them at CERN ?

I'd give a kingdom just to see that

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by WriteSimply

I say turn that thing on. If it anything goes wrong, it'll bring about world peace.

fuad

And we get a new factor for the Drake Equation: (1 - PmBH)

Where PmBH is the probability a civilisation creates a super-collider that create mBH.

[vsbdtv]

Zinder Nullifier

[quexos]

Ok we are hours away from the turning on of the LHC and I'm kind of excited about it. I mean in a positive way, not in a black-hole-end-of-the-world way

It seems Stephen Hawking has made a bet of 100 dollars that the Higgs boson will not be found. For those who wonder, the Higgs boson is a never found particle that if/when found, can help explain a lot of things such as mass in all things in the universe.

Anyways, tomorrow is a big day for science no matter what outcome there is.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today...00/7598686.stm

[Marquoz]

Originally Posted by vsbdtv

Zinder Nullifier

Those are bad things, very bad things. They should have read the papers better before making them!

[dpomp]

wow this is crazy. there's a possibility the world won't be here tomorrow!

[jkwest]

Originally Posted by dpompeo

wow this is crazy. there's a possibility the world won't be here tomorrow!

Tomorrow being GMT!!!

it could be later today!!!

*gasp*

*sigh*

*feint*

*smack!*