Unforgiven (1992) (Remastered)

[jh901]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

He's wrong, and a big reason he's wrong is he's using a projector which doesn't really handle HDR correctly. Also even if Unforgiven was somehow worse than the BD that doesn't mean all the other UHDs are too. As someone who owns 50 of them I can tell you that most movies, on the right display, are dramatically improved.

But tell yourself whatever you have to I guess.

Proper, pro ISF calibration of projectors is an absolute must and there are no shortcuts. In fact, there are very few pros who follow the ins and outs. ChadB will be handling my JVC RS600 when I make the upgrade to a UHD player.

I'd also suggest that pro calibration of reference 4K panels is not optional. It's really a shame, because any of us can find opinions here which are convenient to believe, whether complete and accurate or not.

[MassiveMovieBuff]

Originally Posted by imsounoriginal

There are people on these forums who live to see UHD die. Not gonna bother speculating on the reasons. Just gotta accept it and move on. No point talking to a wall.

I don't think it's that so much. I think it's more of this sudden opinion that blu ray sucks now (atleast as how I've perceived it), like it's a blu ray vs. DVD situation, that UHD is out which isn't the case at all. There's a lot of factors that go into it like having to buy a new player and TV and replacing blu ray collections with UHD releases now which is very costly right now atleast. It's strange that they just put the blu ray and UHD together instead of selling them separately which made it much more expensive for those who just want the blu ray.

I'm not against UHD at all but I still find blu ray to be a fantastic format even if UHD is an improvement to a degree.

[infiniteCR]

People should just go try UHD out and decide for themselves. A nice side effect is that upgrading your equipment makes bluray look even better. Getting a calibrated OLED made my bluray collection feel like it had changed formats. The difference in quality from upgrading my equipment was a bigger change than when I was comparing the two formats if I am honest with myself.


This release pulling the shenanigan where they force you to buy something is uncool though. I am sure lots of people would be upset if they were forced to buy the 3D version of a movie just to get the regular bluray. I don't like how the bluray 'later in the year' hasn't been announced more properly.

[imsounoriginal]

Originally Posted by MassiveMovieBuff

I don't think it's that so much. I think it's more of this sudden opinion that blu ray sucks now (atleast as how I've perceived it), like it's a blu ray vs. DVD situation, that UHD is out which isn't the case at all. There's a lot of factors that go into it like having to buy a new player and TV and replacing blu ray collections with UHD releases now which is very costly right now atleast. It's strange that they just put the blu ray and UHD together instead of selling them separately which made it much more expensive for those who just want the blu ray.

I'm not against UHD at all but I still find blu ray to be a fantastic format even if UHD is an improvement to a degree.

I don't think anyone's saying Blu-ray sucks (if they are, I don't agree with that), but if there's a UHD of a film available, I think that becomes the default way to watch it. There are some UHDs that don't look amazing but other than maybe Suicide Squad I think all the ones I've seen (around 40+) offer at least a marginal (and usually substantial) improvement over the BD. And I'm not even using a top-of-the-line setup. I understand wanting to wait things out until Dolby Vision becomes more pervasive or prices come down, but the people who say things like "2K DIs are trash" or "UHD doesn't offer any improvement" are just spreading disinformation and wanting/hoping for the format to die.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by jh901

Proper, pro ISF calibration of projectors is an absolute must and there are no shortcuts. In fact, there are very few pros who follow the ins and outs. ChadB will be handling my JVC RS600 when I make the upgrade to a UHD player.

True, but I was more speaking of brightness in nits. The projector he used was calibrated for 100 nits brightness, which is like 2% of what this disc is mastered for (4,000 nits). Warner titles are especially demanding in HDR because they master for super high nits and make no compromises. As I just wrote elsewhere, you need a set with high brightness, good tone mapping and great color volume to really see Warner UHDs as they were meant to be seen. If you don't have that it's going to look dark and washed out.

The UHD of Unforgiven IS a little darker than the BD, but it looks much more accurate and like film than the BD does. The BD is no slouch though, I think every fan will be happy with either.

[Member-167298]

Originally Posted by MassiveMovieBuff

Just did a comparison between the previous release and the new one and it's no contest that the new one wins. The previous release is plagued with what looks to be EE and bad compression. The new one is cleaned up, gorgeously detailed and filmic.

Well, sounds like it is time for me to finally (I know, I know) check out Unforgiven!

[Aragorn the Elfstone]

Originally Posted by MassiveMovieBuff

I don't think it's that so much. I think it's more of this sudden opinion that blu ray sucks now (atleast as how I've perceived it), like it's a blu ray vs. DVD situation, that UHD is out which isn't the case at all.

This is pretty much where I'm coming from.

[MassiveMovieBuff]

Originally Posted by imsounoriginal

I don't think anyone's saying Blu-ray sucks (if they are, I don't agree with that), but if there's a UHD of a film available, I think that becomes the default way to watch it. There are some UHDs that don't look amazing but other than maybe Suicide Squad I think all the ones I've seen (around 40+) offer at least a marginal (and usually substantial) improvement over the BD. And I'm not even using a top-of-the-line setup. I understand wanting to wait things out until Dolby Vision becomes more pervasive or prices come down, but the people who say things like "2K DIs are trash" or "UHD doesn't offer any improvement" are just spreading disinformation and wanting/hoping for the format to die.

Yeah you bring up good points. I personally haven't been able to do a proper comparison between the 2 formats so I can't say how much more improved UHD is. I've read a good amount of posts from members of both sides who say it is an improvement and others who say its not that much to do the full overhaul on upgrading to not even really telling a difference so it just makes the consensus very mixed. I just bought a new TV too so I definitely have no desire to upgrade anytime soon.

I do read a lot of posts from members though along the lines of no UHD no sale. That's how I get my impression that people think blu ray is no good anymore.

[StingingVelvet]

Improvements always reframe how we see previous tech. Flip-phones were the coolest things in the world until the iPhone launched. That's just how these things work. I'm not gonna pretend HDR isn't a game changer, because it is. BDs definitely look flat and lack contrast now that I have gotten used to HDR.

Does that mean BD sucks? No, they can still look great. Hell, I still watch DVDs pretty regularly, because at the end of the day the content matters most. However does HDR mean I hope my favorite films get upgraded and will say they look much better on forums dedicated to these subjects? Oh yeah.

[MassiveMovieBuff]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

True, but I was more speaking of brightness in nits. The projector he used was calibrated for 100 nits brightness, which is like 2% of what this disc is mastered for (4,000 nits). Warner titles are especially demanding in HDR because they master for super high nits and make no compromises. As I just wrote elsewhere, you need a set with high brightness, good tone mapping and great color volume to really see Warner UHDs as they were meant to be seen. If you don't have that it's going to look dark and washed out.

The UHD of Unforgiven IS a little darker than the BD, but it looks much more accurate and like film than the BD does. The BD is no slouch though, I think every fan will be happy with either.

Was that darkness with the UHD transfer for Unforgiven a similar situation as the Goodfellas release? I ask because I never really got a real grasp on why that transfer is so poorly received.

[StingingVelvet]

Originally Posted by MassiveMovieBuff

Was that darkness with the UHD transfer for Unforgiven a similar situation as the Goodfellas release? I ask because I never really got a real grasp on why that transfer is so poorly received.

Yep. All Warner discs are done the same way, but it's more obvious on the ones without bright HDR highlights. Pacific Rim for example has such amazing color and pop that people with weaker sets don't notice as much as they do on something like Goodfellas. Even my set, with 1400 nits and good tone mapping, is not seeing Warner discs at their fullest. I just get closer than a lot of others.

This speaks directly to your post above btw, about some saying it's a big improvement and others the opposite. UHD is much more equipment dependent than BD was, as an upgrade. Without an HDR Premium set you're not seeing a lot of discs how they should be seen, and then you get on the forum and "meh" about it. I should know, I did exactly that with my old set, before I upgraded.

[imsounoriginal]

Originally Posted by MassiveMovieBuff

Yeah you bring up good points. I personally haven't been able to do a proper comparison between the 2 formats so I can't say how much more improved UHD is. I've read a good amount of posts from members of both sides who say it is an improvement and others who say its not that much to do the full overhaul on upgrading to not even really telling a difference so it just makes the consensus very mixed. I just bought a new TV too so I definitely have no desire to upgrade anytime soon.

I do read a lot of posts from members though along the lines of no UHD no sale. That's how I get my impression that people think blu ray is no good anymore.

Yeah and that's not a philosophy I agree with. Frankly UHD is never gonna be a format that we should assume every movie is due for release on. Obviously it's disappointing when some genuinely excellent and visually incredible movies don't get UHDs (looking at you, Nocturnal Animals and Moonlight), but then again there's a good argument to make that there wouldn't be much of a market for those on UHD anyway. I still bought both those BDs lol, at the end of the day they're excellent movies and BD is still a damn fine way to watch them. (And on the off chance they do get UHDs down the road, I'll upgrade them.)

People who say "no UHD, no sale" for Disney titles have a point, though.

[ROSS.T.G.]

Wow, everyone is behaving today. Good points from both sides. As for calibration it depends on the quality of the display. A good display will only need marginal adjustments and hiring anyone but a pro is useless. It all comes down to the gear the calibrator has. A cheap meter can often bring a display further away. CMS is also very tricky. It will be interesting to see how a good 4K projector will handle HDR.

[MassiveMovieBuff]

Originally Posted by ROSS.T.G.

Wow, everyone is behaving today. Good points from both sides. As for calibration it depends on the quality of the display. A good display will only need marginal adjustments and hiring anyone but a pro is useless. It all comes down to the gear the calibrator has. A cheap meter can often bring a display further away. CMS is also very tricky. It will be interesting to see how a good 4K projector will handle HDR.

Yeah I love when there's mature discussions like this without things getting heated and everyone is having an open mind.

[ROSS.T.G.]

Originally Posted by MassiveMovieBuff

Yeah I love when there's mature discussions like this without things getting heated and everyone is having an open mind.

[Aragorn the Elfstone]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Without an HDR Premium set you're not seeing a lot of discs how they should be seen, and then you get on the forum and "meh" about it. I should know, I did exactly that with my old set, before I upgraded.

I'm going to try to take a step here toward not being as antagonistic as I have been lately toward UHD and acknowledge that I do not have an HDR Premium set (I have a JS8500, which I think I read is only around 500ish nits?). So, in truth, my lackluster reaction to HDR may owe to this.

My experience with UHD presentations on Amazon has been very unsatisfying. Watching The Man in the High Castle, the black levels are so dark that I can barely see anything in certain scenes (this is not helped by the blinding lights coming from windows, lamps, etc. in those scenes). Conversely, while watching Mozart in the Jungle, the black levels seem too light. In both cases, watching the SDR 1080p versions provides a MUCH better viewing experience.

If this experience is different for those with proper Premium sets, that would be good to hear.

However, I just bought my 4K set last year and have no plans to replace it any time in the foreseeable future (particularly as I am loving having 3D capability for the very first time and finally enjoying 3D films as they are meant to be seen).

[I KEEL YOU]

All this calibration jargon will be such a roadblock for the UHD format. At least until we get to a point where the equipment has proper built-in calibration as soon as you buy it. Right now, every UHD thread has like 20 pages discussing calibration where someone is telling someone else that their equipment is not properly calibrated, and it seems like you have to have some sort of a ph.D. in order to properly view UHD.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by I KEEL YOU

All this calibration jargon will be such a roadblock for the UHD format. At least until we get to a point where the equipment has proper built-in calibration as soon as you buy it. Right now, every UHD thread has like 20 pages discussing calibration where someone is telling someone else that their equipment is not properly calibrated, and it seems like you have to have some sort of a ph.D. in order to properly view UHD.

And we thought the 'hey, don't blame us if this disc doesn't work, it's probably just your firmware' message on BDs was bad

[I KEEL YOU]

Originally Posted by MassiveMovieBuff

I don't think it's that so much. I think it's more of this sudden opinion that blu ray sucks now (atleast as how I've perceived it), like it's a blu ray vs. DVD situation, that UHD is out which isn't the case at all.

I've noticed that there are definitely some snobby people here who claim that UHD is a "drastic" improvement over normal blu ray, and if you don't believe that it is, then your equipment is not good enough. Even if you tell them that you've been to various electronics stores many times to watch UHD demos that are meant to make the technology look as appealing as possible on super expensive equipment that at least some of must be properly calibrated. And if you still aren't of the opinion that it is a "drastic" difference over ordinary HD, they're still like "There's gotta be something wrong with the equipment".

[Aragorn the Elfstone]

Originally Posted by I KEEL YOU

I've noticed that there are definitely some snobby people here who claim that UHD is a "drastic" improvement over normal blu ray, and if you don't believe that it is, then your equipment is not good enough. Even if you tell them that you've been to various electronics stores many times to watch UHD demos that are meant to make the technology look as appealing as possible on super expensive equipment that at least some of must be properly calibrated. And if you still aren't of the opinion that it is a "drastic" difference over ordinary HD, they're still like "There's gotta be something wrong with the equipment".

Yeah, it's frustrating. I made the concession above that my own equipment is not good enough to display HDR correctly, but the fact remains that I have seen it on displays in store as well. I've seen what the advocates are talking about. I've seen the deeper blacks, the brilliant highlights, the wider spectrum of colors, etc. But I just don't agree that it makes Blu-ray "flat" or "unwatchable" or whatever else they want to say.

I suppose you can get used to the advances that UHD offers, and then you'll want more of that. But why can't I choose just to be happy with Blu-ray? It's a great format that looks stunning on my set. I also get frustrated with the DVD comparisons. That's false equivalency. DVDs did not looks this good on my HD set when I got it. I upgraded to BD because of the shortcomings of DVD, not because I needed "the very, very best".

I presume the time will come when HDR becomes widespread - when it's used in broadcasts, phones, tablets, computers, etc. But when will that be? Will UHD Blu-ray even still be around by then? Or will streaming/digital downloads have taken over? I don't particularly want that, but why should I invest in something now that I neither feel the desire for, nor can guarantee will even be around by the time HDR becomes a typical part of home media (if it does). And, of course, even if I did, I don't have the equipment to take full advantage of it.

I don't have anything against people who are fully into UHD Blu-ray. I really don't. I just wish I'd stop hearing how behind the times I am for "only" supporting Blu-ray and how I need to "see the light". It's just nonsense.