Proof the Cell Processor in the PLAYSTATION 3 is also a powerful GPU - Blu-ray Forum

joeorc · 12-09-2008, 12:48 AM

for those that do not agree i have stated once before that the Cell Processor in the playstation 3 is a CPU/GPU Chip. well here is the proof straight from :

Peter Hofstee, chief architect of the Cell BE microprocessor. Taken during his presentation at the University of Delaware ("The Cell Broadband Engine Processor: A highly programmable C/GPU")

DR. Hofstee has stated this here is the PDF

lanl.gov/orgs/hpc/roadrunner/rrinfo/RR%20webPDFs/Cell_Hofstee_Non_Conf.pdf

and how AMD and ATI are also heading in that same direction.

so in effect your playstation 3 has 2 types of GPU's in the system

CPU/GPU's

crackinhedz · 12-09-2008, 01:02 AM

can you break this down into laymans terms as to the benefit of this info...im just curious. Im not very PC inclined.

joeorc · 12-09-2008, 01:06 AM

in terms is its like the SLI or crossfire function you can put into PC's its to help with a number of functions like :

IE: Sli,Crossfire are multiple linked GPU's or AKA: multiple graphics cards you can put into the PCI slots in PC's .

keyword Linked graphic cards. you could not do this with any graphic's cards at one time only one graphics card manuf. had the technology, but now most gpu manuf. have that capability.

anyway

a couple of big benefits off the bat.

increase graphics acceleration
lower latency for generated graphic threads
etc.

the draw back is since the Cell processor is still pretty new the development time would increase not just for the tools that developers use to make games, but the games as well due to there Not as well developed API's
availiable . that will change over time though. since engines have to be created from the bottom up to take advantage of such functions IE: THE CELL processors GPU part's functions..its going to be a steady development,but the results as they are being shown right now Example: KZ2, Uncharted ..etc.it's looking to come along nicely.

that's just some of the things.

ThePhantomOak · 12-09-2008, 01:11 AM

do you know a major reason why the memory in a PS3 is split the way it is?

Hint: speed of light.

The PS3s guts are amazing.

zweet77 · 12-09-2008, 01:14 AM

Gpu=graphics processing unit Cpu=central processing unit
So basically the gpu is dedicated to rendering graphics and cpu handles the programs and codes.A console or computer will have a cpu and a graphics card as the gpu So the cell can do double duty as both meaning the ps3 can sqeeze extra power out of the cell for graphics.

joeorc · 12-09-2008, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zweet77

Gpu=graphics processing unit Cpu=central processing unit
So basically the gpu is dedicated to rendering graphics and cpu handles the programs and codes.A console or computer will have a cpu and a graphics card as the gpu So the cell can do double duty as both meaning the ps3 can sqeeze extra power out of the cell for graphics.

bingo..

, with results like the playstation 3 are already showing already we are in for some great content. down the pipeline.

PS: so the next time Some one like's to claim the "cell processor" is not good for development for games
you will know otherwise...just say "no thats just a myth"

venom121584 · 12-09-2008, 04:28 AM

lol i love it. this is good info

mikejet · 12-09-2008, 04:31 AM

Too bad it's still hard to develop for. Hopefully they fix that with the PS4.

joeorc · 12-09-2008, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikejet

Too bad it's still hard to develop for. Hopefully they fix that with the PS4.

IBM is on it have you seen the new Cell they have it already in backplane form factor it puts this Cell processor in the PS3 to shame..check it out

www.matrix-vision.com/support/products/hardware/family/CE/mvXCell/mvXCell-8i_e_2008-11_MR.pdf

these things are a beast...

mikejet · 12-09-2008, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeorc

IBM is on it have you seen the new Cell they have it already in backplane form factor it puts this Cell processor in the PS3 to shame..check it out

www.matrix-vision.com/support/products/hardware/family/CE/mvXCell/mvXCell-8i_e_2008-11_MR.pdf

these things are a beast...

That's awesome, but it's not in the PS3 I have. Useless.

Ascended_Saiyan · 12-09-2008, 04:54 AM

Here is more Cell information I've come across over time:

Against the fastest single cores (like Intel Xeon)...1 SPE can perform up to 7x better than a single core 3.6GHz Intel Xeon.

Cloth Physics on 2.4GHz Cell vs single core 3.6GHz Intel Xeon

Performance comparison between Intel/AMD dual-core processors versus Cell...also partially explains that realism iin games is not limited by the GPU anymore.

Cell beats Intel Quad-Core (Clovertown) at DP GFLOPS, which it's terrible at compared to it's SP (just divide the chart number in half for Cell due to Cell blade being used).

IBM document on Cell and per SPE performance

SPEs capable of "running single core scalar programs in their entirety".

The benefits of procedural textures (4D Graphics)

Individual programmer experiments on PS3...shows per SPE output at bottom.

Cell almost 20x (2 orders of magnitude) faster than Opteron processor at Molecule Dynamics

Cell versus Intel Core2 Duo in power consumption and theoretical performance.

Cell versus Intel Quad Core (Clovertown) theoretical GFLOPS...and real world Multigrid Finite Element solver running at an unprecedented 52GFLOPS sustained performance.

Cell almost 14x the sustained performance of single core 3.6GHz Intel Xeon at VSIPL++ fast convolution.

What DirectX means for your GPU

Cell (1GB RAM) 11x faster than Intel Quad-Core (Clovertown) w/16GB RAM at SP for financial market applications.

Cell ray-casts complex 720p scenes at greater than 30fps.

Cell beats Nvidia 7800 GT OC at ray-tracing quaternion Julia fractals by a factor of over 5x.

Cell over 4x faster at ray-tracing Stanford Bunny than Nvidia 8800GTX.

It's a good read.

joeorc · 12-09-2008, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikejet

Too bad it's still hard to develop for. Hopefully they fix that with the PS4.

its realy the development tool's at this point. but yea some developers are just getting the hang of it. that's with Parallel processing in general anyway. these systems are going to increase the time on the market due to their complex nature. simple fact is most developer's have so much room they can keep tweaking their Game Engines ,yea at a certain point its of no use because your game would never get released...

, silly i know . thats the great thing about the new systems they should in theory last for quite a while.

joeorc · 12-09-2008, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikejet

That's awesome, but it's not in the PS3 I have. Useless.

no but it gives you a little insight what could be put into the PS4 , even with one of those cores the Double P. floating point would be quite impressive.Hell even the current PS3's cell is Quite impressive anyway for games.

one only has to look at Uncharted, Killzone 2, Heavy Rain..this is just the start the system is just been released in some parts of the world for the first time..last month 2008..

,playstation 3 is only 1 month old in a few places around the globe .

Monkey · 12-09-2008, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikejet View Post
Too bad it's still hard to develop for. Hopefully they fix that with the PS4.

Yet the PS3 is the home to my favorite games this generation as well as the best looking games. I'm glad there are some talented dev's that do work hard. Thank you Naughty Dawg, Insomniac, Polyphony, Konami, Evolution Studios, Criterion, etc

mikejet · 12-09-2008, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monkey

Yet the PS3 is the home to my favorite games this generation as well as the best looking games. I'm glad there are some talented dev's that do work hard. Thank you Naughty Dawg, Insomniac, Polyphony, Konami, Evolution Studios, Criterion, etc

Yes, when a developer focuses solely on the PS3, great things happen. When they devote more time to their PS3 port than to the others, it's awesome. But then they try to do something for all three, PS3 gets left behind.

joeorc · 12-09-2008, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikejet

Yes, when a developer focuses solely on the PS3, great things happen. When they devote more time to their PS3 port than to the others, it's awesome. But then they try to do something for all three, PS3 gets left behind.

that's most of the time ONLY with 3rd party

PUBLISHERS

not with the developers so much....

Example:

Bethesda Softworks LLC

The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

but take some other Publisher's like :

Example :

UBISOFT

assassins creed

To get better results you would have to have a ENGINE built from the ground up to get better results with your current Engine that was made for PC/POWER PC type of processors. the Cell being a HYBRID like more and more future processor's like from AMD,Intel would need your Engine to be tweaked to be more effective on the hardware the transition to HYBRID is currently on track faster than some programmer's would like that is for sure. but when these HYBRID processors are cheaper , and more power efficient ,you know they are going to produce them..IBM, Toshiba, Sony, AMD,Intel . they all knew it was heading in that direction. Sony wanted to get a head start.

, and with the Cell Processor's streaming capability for Blu-Ray could you blame them.?, So back to the Processor results if in the multi-platform releases for the PS3 sofar have not been that bad IMO, but i have pretty low requirements for what i think is fun, I enjoyed Genji " massive crab damage an all" it remind's me of legend of the 5 rings pen and paper game in its art style.Any way with out a Engine built from the bottom up than the overall system suffers, but even still the results of not even tweaking to the strengths of each system. the PS3 is still getting good results, maybe not the best but still good, my assassins creed still plays just fine and i have fun playing it in my PS3.

Ascended_Saiyan · 12-09-2008, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikejet

Yes, when a developer focuses solely on the PS3, great things happen. When they devote more time to their PS3 port than to the others, it's awesome. But then they try to do something for all three, PS3 gets left behind.

You mean like Tomb Raider: Underworld or Mirror's Edge, huh?

joeorc · 12-09-2008, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ascended_Saiyan

You mean like Tomb Raider: Underworld or Mirror's Edge, huh?

, I did'nt post that because its always what the developer, or publisher has on hand for tools for development for any platform that will have an effect on the development of games + and - one can pretty much see along with what developer's experience with the current platforms which way a company will lean. at least in the short run.

example :

you already have an engine for a system. but you would have to spend more resources to remake the engine to be used to make it optimal on a platform that may need it. to get better results. or if the results are slightly lower with out a remake of the Entire Engine, than you see some go that route.

or they may wait until other companies make an Engine they can lease, or they may develop one of their own over time but may take them a while. cost v's time.

so many thing's are involved.

Ascended_Saiyan · 12-09-2008, 07:19 AM

Definitely correct, but some people can't understand anything except game examples.

joeorc · 12-09-2008, 01:51 PM

if some would stop and think about this for a sec. they would know why its been like this.

for Example:

when was the Cell Processor released to the Development community...the Cell Processor
was unvailed : 2004

"STI". The architectural design and first implementation were carried out at the STI Design Center in Austin, Texas over a four-year period beginning March 2001 on a budget reported by IBM as approaching US$400 million

so look when the Development kits for the playstation 3 was released...mid to late 2005 the first development kits were very few and released in limited #'s , and even then some developers did not get one until spring 2006.

if it takes Epic as an Example to make the Unreal Engine III for the PC/x360 3 years to develop that Engine prior to even had the chance to get a hold of a Cell Processor, than they now have a New type of Processor to add to that bunch its no wonder developers are just getting out the more mature Engines for the Playstation 3.

now compound that fact that: 3rd Party PUBLISHER's

It's Quite Simple:

Developers need to recover cost in investment and with the publishers needing to make as much money as they can . Some Developers, and Publishers are holding out, because for One its far a better position to 3rd party to go to Microsoft right now for Exclusive deals, because they can sell the same game across the PC/X360 but if they would go to Sony, Do you think Sony would want that same game on the PC to compete with the same copy on the playstation 3..? see my point.

Unless you pay 3rd party Publishers not to put out their software on the PC also , that's pretty much another platform to sell the same software on.

With Microsoft its not as big of a deal, because they will make money both from the sale of the x360 + the PC.

Not So with the playstation 3, Sony does not have that bonus,
So that's the main reason why Sony is putting more Money toward 1st and 2nd party.

Now for Sony Fan's there is no real reason to be Mad at Microsoft over this, i for One am not because they are in it to make money. Sony is too, which is why putting more Money into 1st and 2nd party Development studio's is going to save Sony some Cash down the road.

Not to mention In My Opinion Sony is not going to sell the future Playstation systems at a Loss any more I think its going to be about PROFIT's , that's why Sony has

Sir Howard Stringer.

some may not like him but he does know how to turn company's arround to get back to profits.

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/9298

12-09-2008, 12:48 AM	#1
joeorc Power Member Member since:Jan 2007 Location:GROVEPORT ,OHIO	Proof the Cell Processor in the PLAYSTATION 3 is also a powerful GPU for those that do not agree i have stated once before that the Cell Processor in the playstation 3 is a CPU/GPU Chip. well here is the proof straight from : Peter Hofstee, chief architect of the Cell BE microprocessor. Taken during his presentation at the University of Delaware ("The Cell Broadband Engine Processor: A highly programmable C/GPU") DR. Hofstee has stated this here is the PDF lanl.gov/orgs/hpc/roadrunner/rrinfo/RR%20webPDFs/Cell_Hofstee_Non_Conf.pdf and how AMD and ATI are also heading in that same direction. so in effect your playstation 3 has 2 types of GPU's in the system CPU/GPU's

12-09-2008, 01:06 AM	#3
joeorc Power Member Member since:Jan 2007 Location:GROVEPORT ,OHIO	in terms is its like the SLI or crossfire function you can put into PC's its to help with a number of functions like : IE: Sli,Crossfire are multiple linked GPU's or AKA: multiple graphics cards you can put into the PCI slots in PC's . keyword Linked graphic cards. you could not do this with any graphic's cards at one time only one graphics card manuf. had the technology, but now most gpu manuf. have that capability. anyway a couple of big benefits off the bat. increase graphics acceleration lower latency for generated graphic threads etc. the draw back is since the Cell processor is still pretty new the development time would increase not just for the tools that developers use to make games, but the games as well due to there Not as well developed API's availiable . that will change over time though. since engines have to be created from the bottom up to take advantage of such functions IE: THE CELL processors GPU part's functions..its going to be a steady development,but the results as they are being shown right now Example: KZ2, Uncharted ..etc.it's looking to come along nicely. that's just some of the things. Last edited by joeorc; 12-09-2008 at 01:20 AM.

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12-09-2008, 01:02 AM	#2
crackinhedz Super Moderator Member since:Feb 2007 Home Theater Gallery:10 Blu-ray reviews:8 Trading Score:19	can you break this down into laymans terms as to the benefit of this info...im just curious. Im not very PC inclined.

12-09-2008, 01:11 AM	#4
ThePhantomOak Blu-ray Guru Member since:Nov 2007 Location:Reno, NEVADA. "Battle Born"	do you know a major reason why the memory in a PS3 is split the way it is? Hint: speed of light. The PS3s guts are amazing.

12-09-2008, 01:14 AM	#5
zweet77 Senior Member Member since:Apr 2008 Location:San Francisco Home Theater Gallery:12 Blu-ray collection:129 Blu-ray reviews:7	Gpu=graphics processing unit Cpu=central processing unit So basically the gpu is dedicated to rendering graphics and cpu handles the programs and codes.A console or computer will have a cpu and a graphics card as the gpu So the cell can do double duty as both meaning the ps3 can sqeeze extra power out of the cell for graphics.

12-09-2008, 04:28 AM	#7
venom121584 Active Member Member since:Feb 2008 Location:blu city	lol i love it. this is good info

12-09-2008, 04:31 AM	#8
mikejet Banned Member since:Sep 2008 Location:Los Angeles, CA Blu-ray reviews:5 Trading Score:29	Too bad it's still hard to develop for. Hopefully they fix that with the PS4.

12-09-2008, 04:54 AM	#11
Ascended_Saiyan Blu-ray Samurai Member since:Sep 2006 Location:Atlanta, Georgia Blu-ray collection:608 Trading Score:1	Here is more Cell information I've come across over time: Against the fastest single cores (like Intel Xeon)...1 SPE can perform up to 7x better than a single core 3.6GHz Intel Xeon. Cloth Physics on 2.4GHz Cell vs single core 3.6GHz Intel Xeon Performance comparison between Intel/AMD dual-core processors versus Cell...also partially explains that realism iin games is not limited by the GPU anymore. Cell beats Intel Quad-Core (Clovertown) at DP GFLOPS, which it's terrible at compared to it's SP (just divide the chart number in half for Cell due to Cell blade being used). IBM document on Cell and per SPE performance SPEs capable of "running single core scalar programs in their entirety". The benefits of procedural textures (4D Graphics) Individual programmer experiments on PS3...shows per SPE output at bottom. Cell almost 20x (2 orders of magnitude) faster than Opteron processor at Molecule Dynamics Cell versus Intel Core2 Duo in power consumption and theoretical performance. Cell versus Intel Quad Core (Clovertown) theoretical GFLOPS...and real world Multigrid Finite Element solver running at an unprecedented 52GFLOPS sustained performance. Cell almost 14x the sustained performance of single core 3.6GHz Intel Xeon at VSIPL++ fast convolution. What DirectX means for your GPU Cell (1GB RAM) 11x faster than Intel Quad-Core (Clovertown) w/16GB RAM at SP for financial market applications. Cell ray-casts complex 720p scenes at greater than 30fps. Cell beats Nvidia 7800 GT OC at ray-tracing quaternion Julia fractals by a factor of over 5x. Cell over 4x faster at ray-tracing Stanford Bunny than Nvidia 8800GTX. It's a good read.

12-09-2008, 07:19 AM	#19
Ascended_Saiyan Blu-ray Samurai Member since:Sep 2006 Location:Atlanta, Georgia Blu-ray collection:608 Trading Score:1	Definitely correct, but some people can't understand anything except game examples.

12-09-2008, 01:51 PM	#20
joeorc Power Member Member since:Jan 2007 Location:GROVEPORT ,OHIO	if some would stop and think about this for a sec. they would know why its been like this. for Example: when was the Cell Processor released to the Development community...the Cell Processor was unvailed : 2004 "STI". The architectural design and first implementation were carried out at the STI Design Center in Austin, Texas over a four-year period beginning March 2001 on a budget reported by IBM as approaching US$400 million so look when the Development kits for the playstation 3 was released...mid to late 2005 the first development kits were very few and released in limited #'s , and even then some developers did not get one until spring 2006. if it takes Epic as an Example to make the Unreal Engine III for the PC/x360 3 years to develop that Engine prior to even had the chance to get a hold of a Cell Processor, than they now have a New type of Processor to add to that bunch its no wonder developers are just getting out the more mature Engines for the Playstation 3. now compound that fact that: 3rd Party PUBLISHER's It's Quite Simple: Developers need to recover cost in investment and with the publishers needing to make as much money as they can . Some Developers, and Publishers are holding out, because for One its far a better position to 3rd party to go to Microsoft right now for Exclusive deals, because they can sell the same game across the PC/X360 but if they would go to Sony, Do you think Sony would want that same game on the PC to compete with the same copy on the playstation 3..? see my point. Unless you pay 3rd party Publishers not to put out their software on the PC also , that's pretty much another platform to sell the same software on. With Microsoft its not as big of a deal, because they will make money both from the sale of the x360 + the PC. Not So with the playstation 3, Sony does not have that bonus, So that's the main reason why Sony is putting more Money toward 1st and 2nd party. Now for Sony Fan's there is no real reason to be Mad at Microsoft over this, i for One am not because they are in it to make money. Sony is too, which is why putting more Money into 1st and 2nd party Development studio's is going to save Sony some Cash down the road. Not to mention In My Opinion Sony is not going to sell the future Playstation systems at a Loss any more I think its going to be about PROFIT's , that's why Sony has Sir Howard Stringer. some may not like him but he does know how to turn company's arround to get back to profits. http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/9298

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