Let's talk comics

[fighthefutureofhd]

Originally Posted by Blu-Ron

Different Generation.

not so my friend. i grew up with comics in the 70's, 80's, 90's, and today. i'm not as young as many might think.

Originally Posted by sonnyworld85

+1 Amen my friend the 80's were the prime of comic books. At this point in time, they do not exist in my opinion.

again, then you are missing out. some of the best stories written have come out in the last 9 years. civil war, house of m, the other, messiah complex, and so on. and the 80's weren't exactly the prime of comic books. not the whole of the 80's anyway. from 85-90 i would say you're right. personally, i think the 90's right up until 1998 were the prime of comic books. many of the best stories came out of that time. great, great runs of excellent comic books too. as long as we're not talking about dc comics mind you.

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by dpompeo

ah man! i was waiting for your input.

OK. Honestly I was concerned about this thread crossing the line about talk of sexuality... because I know there is a mod or two out there that would love ANY excuse to boot me but here goes...... if they want to boot me.... I guess they will have to also boot most of the other thread participants

The main character here is a wealthy socialite who is also a secret crime fighter..... just like Bruce Wayne. The only REAL differences between Kane and Wayne are that Kane is female and gay. Soooo.... all the people complaining about how this new character is not going to work.... MUST have a problem with one of those two things.

Which makes me wonder, do they have a problem with having a doctor that is a lesbian? Do they have a problem with having a lesbian check their groceries? Do they have a problem with using a tax professional that is a lesbian? If not.... why would they have a problem with a lesbian super hero? If they do have a problem with those situations..... well that's a bigger issue.

Originally Posted by STARSCREAM

+1000000000000000000000000000000000! I'm so sick of stupid s***! Sick of the overly PC world we live in now. This is one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard.

PC world? It's too PC to have super heros that mirror real life people? Even if we use the conservative estimate that 2% of the world is gay.... we have more than enough comic super heros to be long overdue to see a gay one.

Originally Posted by Septimus Prime

Really, I don't think the issue is her sexuality. I think what's bothering most fans is that her character is such a huge departure from what Batman was.

See the fellow above me... do you REALLY think his rant about this too PC world was about a woman super hero?

[EricJ]

And I know DC's toyed with the idea of an even darker "Batwoman (no relation to Batgirl)", as previously promo-spun off in another Warner toon feature, but...

...Any other MST3K fans right now expecting her to be accompanied by go-go girls, and conducting Chinese seances?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9UgWfv2XjM

[Beast]

*Cheers for a refrence to The Wild Wild World of Batwoman!*

God I miss MST3K more and more every day.

[camper]

Originally Posted by robinandtami

The main character here is a wealthy socialite who is also a secret crime fighter..... just like Bruce Wayne. The only REAL differences between Kane and Wayne are that Kane is female and gay. Soooo.... all the people complaining about how this new character is not going to work.... MUST have a problem with one of those two things.

The difference between Kane & Wayne is a VERY large one. By itself, the character being a woman is a very large one. Being a woman and a lesbian highlights, underscores, and capitalizes the very large difference and when a character has a difference of this magnitude it turns off the core audience.

I don't care what anyone says, a man can NOT fully relate to a woman any more than a woman can fully relate to a man. It's not possible. Just like a white man cannot relate to being black, and a black man cannot relate to being asian. Part of the appeal of batman (and superhero's in general) is for the reader to 'fantasize' about fulfilling the role of the character. The reason why female superheroes are not as popular as the males is because few women read comics (not so much anymore, granted) and the predominately male audience cannot to relate to them.

When you take the character and make it female, you kill the relateability fantasy, and the only fantasy that will retain the male audicne becomes a sexual one...hence the comment about batwoman & catwoman romance being the only thing that will retain the bulk of the audience.

Which makes me wonder, do they have a problem with having a doctor that is a lesbian? Do they have a problem with having a lesbian check their groceries? Do they have a problem with using a tax professional that is a lesbian? If not.... why would they have a problem with a lesbian super hero? If they do have a problem with those situations..... well that's a bigger issue.

I doubt most have issues with people who are gay/lesbian individually (even those who are put off by that lifestyle) but when you take a character that is 60+ years old and change them in a drastic way, people will NOT be happy.

PC world? It's too PC to have super heros that mirror real life people? Even if we use the conservative estimate that 2% of the world is gay.... we have more than enough comic super heros to be long overdue to see a gay one.

Gay superheros generally aren't popular. There are a few, and have been some since the 80's in marvel & DC. That gets back into the relatability issue, because using your 2% estimate above that means that 98% of the readers simply can't relate.

DC changing a cornerstone character like Batman to one who represents a very minor segment of society reeks of a publicity stunt, and that really gets the fanbase up in arms. Its kind of like hearing a Sex Pistols song used in a Burger King or Walmart commercial, its a defacing of the intent of the medium.

That's how I see it, anyway.

camper

[Clark Kent]

These stunts the big comic book publishers regularly promote have ruined a little part of comics for me. Everyone, and I mean everyone, knows this is a publicity stunt and a temporary move to boost sales and attract attention to the Batman line of comics. All I have to say is the name Azrael and you will know what I am talking about. The Kathy Kane as Batwoman character was originally a love interest for Batman in the 1950's. Times certainly have changed...

[Septimus Prime]

Originally Posted by camper

I doubt most have issues with people who are gay/lesbian individually (even those who are put off by that lifestyle) but when you take a character that is 60+ years old and change them in a drastic way, people will NOT be happy.

Exactly. It's the New Coke effect. While there was nothing ostensibly wrong with the drink itself, people hated that Coca-Cola was marketing as the "the same great taste" but "better." Now that it's back on the market with a different name (Coke II), no one seems to care at all anymore.

[jkwest]

I vote for Angelina Jolie....jus' sayin'

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by camper

I don't care what anyone says, a man can NOT fully relate to a woman any more than a woman can fully relate to a man. It's not possible. Just like a white man cannot relate to being black, and a black man cannot relate to being asian. Part of the appeal of batman (and superhero's in general) is for the reader to 'fantasize' about fulfilling the role of the character. The reason why female superheroes are not as popular as the males is because few women read comics (not so much anymore, granted) and the predominately male audience cannot to relate to them.


That's how I see it, anyway.

camper

Maybe men are just less empathetic than women. I have no problem with relating to male characters, black characters, gay characters, straight characters, evil characters, saintly characters, poor characters, rich characters, characters that are very much like me, or characters that are completely different than me. If the characters are well written..... I can relate to them.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by Septimus Prime

Exactly. It's the New Coke effect. While there was nothing ostensibly wrong with the drink itself, people hated that Coca-Cola was marketing as the "the same great taste" but "better." Now that it's back on the market with a different name (Coke II), no one seems to care at all anymore.

But they're not changing Batman. It's not like Batman suddenly woke up as a gay female character. Jesus. This argument and the one that's being responded to with this post doesn't make sense.

[tommyboy81]

Ok ok. Haven't read the comics but I have to ask. Was Kane in there before. Or are they going to have it where she pops out dressed as Batwoman?

Edit: Well this sort of answers it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batwoman

[STARSCREAM]

Originally Posted by Beast

Batman is a man who runs around in spandex with a young boy.

Can't really get gayer than that.

Again, where are these huge differences that have nothing to do sex.

HAHAHAHA.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by Septimus Prime

Really, I don't think the issue is her sexuality. I think what's bothering most fans is that her character is such a huge departure from what Batman was.

Still waiting to hear what these HUGE departures are that have nothing to do with sex.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by STARSCREAM

HAHAHAHA.

You know I'm your hero.

[Septimus Prime]

Originally Posted by Beast

Still waiting to hear what these HUGE departures are that have nothing to do with sex.

Yeah, cool. Keep waiting and goading me because you just want to argue with me. Let me guess, though. Whatever I say, you'll just pull up the same strawman argument and say something like Batman is just a crime fighter in a cape and cowl.

Look, it's clear you don't like Batman or DC. I know. We all know. You don't need to troll up every single thread about Batman, though.

And if you really want to know, camper already explained it.

[EricJ]

Originally Posted by camper

I don't care what anyone says, a man can NOT fully relate to a woman any more than a woman can fully relate to a man. It's not possible. Just like a white man cannot relate to being black, and a black man cannot relate to being asian. Part of the appeal of batman (and superhero's in general) is for the reader to 'fantasize' about fulfilling the role of the character. The reason why female superheroes are not as popular as the males is because few women read comics (not so much anymore, granted) and the predominately male audience cannot to relate to them.

To put it more simply: Anyone remember "Birds of Prey"?
The time Warner/DC/WB Network tried to cash in on kickass-grrl "empowerment fantasy" Gotham Girls marketing as a "chick" series, but found they couldn't market it to male comic-book viewers, and ended up with NOBODY watching it?

...Yyyyeah. Pretty much. Everyone fantasizes about the Badass-Babe heroine in marketing theory, but nobody ever actually likes one in practice.
If we did, the Huntress would still be around by now.

[camper]

Originally Posted by robinandtami

Maybe men are just less empathetic than women. I have no problem with relating to male characters, black characters, gay characters, straight characters, evil characters, saintly characters, poor characters, rich characters, characters that are very much like me, or characters that are completely different than me. If the characters are well written..... I can relate to them.

Read that carefully, and you get the point...it sounds like you're having a hard time relating to men who are (generally speaking) far lest empathetic than women.

Trust me, I'm not saying that I--as a straight man who disagrees with the homosexual lifestyle--can't understand how it feels when his gay friend is bummed about being dumped, but what I *am* saying is that I have no idea what it's like to be a gay man, nor can I REALLY get all that goes with it no matter how well it's explained.

As that relates to comic characters, it breaks the fantasy when you (as a reader) ineternalize how batman is on a revenge/justice kick due to his parents being killed (everyone has parents and most people love them) but when I as a man am now trying to internalize the experience/motivations between a character that was a man and is now a woman...it's much harder and breaks the 'fantasy' if you want to call it that.

If the new lesbian superhero was a NEW hero, without any preconceptions or background history, it would be a non issue. But we're talking batman, and therefore it becomes an issue.

camper

[Beast]

Originally Posted by Septimus Prime

Yeah, cool. Keep waiting and goading me because you just want to argue with me. Let me guess, though. Whatever I say, you'll just pull up the same strawman argument and say something like Batman is just a crime fighter in a cape and cowl.

Strawman argument? You're the one who claimed that there were these HUGE differences between Batwoman and Batman that had nothing to do with sex. Yet clearly as has been noted more than once, there really isn't. So thank you for admitting that fact and agreeing with me. Saves us time.

Look, it's clear you don't like Batman or DC. I know. We all know. You don't need to troll up every single thread about Batman, though.

Who said I don't like Batman. I don't like Nolan's Batman. Batman's a perfecly find character. The old TV series. The Animated Series. The Burton Films. Batman: The Brave and the Bold. As for DC... the issue mainly is with WB. And how they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. Otherwise, I do prefer Marvel's characters.

And if you really want to know, camper already explained it.

Not really. His argument makes as little sense as your supposed one.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by camper

Trust me, I'm not saying that I--as a straight man who disagrees with the homosexual lifestyle--can't understand how it feels when his gay friend is bummed about being dumped, but what I *am* saying is that I have no idea what it's like to be a gay man, nor can I REALLY get all that goes with it no matter how well it's explained.

There's really not that big of a difference. Actually, there's really no difference.

It's not like people's emotions and feelings suddenly become weird and alien just cause they prefer sleeping with the same sex. You really find it so hard to understand how a gay character feels, when they're going through the exact same thing as a straight character can? Really? That's either incredibly close-minded or sad.

Regarding your other comments. You realize that Batman didn't just wake up one day female and gay right? Cause you seem to be thinking that they changed who Batman/Bruce Wayne is. Which is not the case.

[camper]

Originally Posted by Beast

There's really not that big of a difference. Actually, there's really no difference.

It's not like people's emotions and feelings suddenly become weird and alien just cause they prefer sleeping with the same sex. You really find it so hard to understand how a gay character feels, when they're going through the exact same thing as a straight character can? Really? That's either incredibly close-minded or sad.

IF there is no difference, then sales won't go down a single issue. But, they will as many long-time subscribers have stated they are cancelling their subscriptions. So obviously, it's an issue, isn't it?

And it's not simply a gay man (who while gay is still a man), it's a gay woman. Very far removed from a straight man, they are not the same. Unless you're implying a lesbian is exactly the same as a man? I hardly think so, just because a straight man and lesbian are both attracted to women they are still extremely different.

And I never said it had nothing to do with sex...it has everything to do with sex. Wonder Woman reimaged into an amazonian man (a gay one even) would not be same character, and would be an extreme departure from the original.

camper