The Last of Us Part 2 - PS5

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

There's another saying that goes "the vocal minority doesn't speak for the masses." Despite the whiners on social media, their opinion does not reflect the majority of gamers who played and enjoyed this game for what it is.

I haven't seen any accurate data on that. Interpreting social media posts amounts to naval gazing.

Criticism was inevitable and ND knew this going in. Kudos to them and Sony for being unwavering with their vision of what they wanted this game to be, despite the potential backlash. We need more developers like them. And I would hardly consider this a "dumb idea" considering all of the critical and commercial success this game has been showered with.

It's all relative. To really make an honest assessment, you'd have to make the kind of game I'd like and compare it to sales of TLOU2 that you like. TLOU2 was bound to be a blockbuster as a sequel to TLOU, and was bound to earn lots of accolades with all the resources Sony and ND threw into it, e.g., bundling it with PS4.

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

So the term "a famous work of art" is an oxymoron? Shakespeare's plays, The Mona Lisa, The Sistine Chapel, The Last Supper, and Beethoven's music aren't art either? All of them were sold to customers.

You're focusing on the most famous works of art to the exclusion of all else, including the broader point and the topic of the thread. Most artists are not famous but toil in anonymity (including famous artists like Van Gough, who achieved fame only posthumously). Most artists, including Van Gough, found it impossible to make a decent living selling art and were only able to indulge in it because they came from a prosperous family.

What is art? What do you call the thing (painting, drawing, film, game, song, sculpture, etc.) the artist creates?

Art is defined as "the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination." You don't need to ask this, and you don't need me to tell you this. Just stick to the conversation.

[ZHobbs]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

I really hope that's not true. Even in the first game Joel was a terrible person. He's a great character and it's a fantastic game but Joel is not relatable.

I always saw The Last of Us as being about about a harsh and unforgiving world where people will do whatever it takes to survive. That applies to both games equally well. I certainly didn't think that Abby was less relatable or worse than Joel: they are both people who have done terrible things but will fight for the people they care about.

Spot on. My friend asked me last month why people don't like it and my response was "The game made the world harsh and unforgiving." Joel is not a good guy at the beginning of TLOU but the game changes the way you see him as a person and how he treats & he starts caring for others by the end. Abby has the same parallel as Joel & when she meets Yara & Lev she starts to care for Lev and leave WLF behind. Some people don't make it far enough to see the parallels among characters.

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

I really hope that's not true. Even in the first game Joel was a terrible person. He's a great character and it's a fantastic game but Joel is not relatable. I always saw The Last of Us as being about about a harsh and unforgiving world where people will do whatever it takes to survive. That applies to both games equally well.

I certainly didn't think that Abby was less relatable or worse than Joel: they are both people who have done terrible things but will fight for the people they care about.

Ok, but what's missing from that analysis is the primal relationship between a father and child, wherein the father's instinct and role is to be a protector. Like it or not, this too was always what TLOU was about.

[StarkRomanoff]

Gremal isn’t worth talking to y’all. They tried this BS in TLOU2 PS4 thread and just want to start something with their ignorant biases. Unsurprisingly they are once again supremely wrong. The Last of Us 2 IS art, games and media ARE art, and art is marketed to the masses. It’s called capitalism.

Artists created the imagery, sculpted the environment, composed the music, performed these characters, wrote this story for the world to experience. What the creators of this game did are the same things the Greeks did only in a digital age. Gremal inherently doesn’t understand art and that has been one of their many problems in communicating with others about this game.

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

How is The Last of Us (or any other video game) not "the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination"? Where did the game come from if it wasn't from "human creative skill and imagination"?

I just told you this a couple posts ago. Game companies invest capital into game dev as a business. They may hire artistic types, but the reality is that there is an expectation of profit. This is in many respect the opposite of art because art is purely a manifestation of the artist's self expression and a game is not that.

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

You didn't finish the second game did you?

Yes, I did.

Originally Posted by StarkRomanoff

Gremal isn’t worth talking to y’all. They tried this BS in TLOU2 PS4 thread and just want to start something with their ignorant biases. Unsurprisingly they are once again supremely wrong. The Last of Us 2 IS art, games and media ARE art, and art is marketed to the masses. It’s called capitalism.

In capitalism, products are marketed. You are confusing art with products. Badly. You are also afraid to have a discussion with someone who disagrees with you, which makes your position shaky.

Artists created the imagery, sculpted the environment, composed the music, performed these characters, wrote this story for the world to experience. What the creators of this game did are the same things the Greeks did only in a digital age. Gremal inherently doesn’t understand art and that has been one of their many problems in communicating with others about this game.

Even if we indulge your position, and call the game "art", that is fairly meaningless. There can be great art, poor art, meaningful art, meaningless art, art that resonates with you but not with others, etc., etc.

[Leonidas King]

Anyways so...going by what Santa Monica Studio did with GoW (another GOTY winner). I'm almost certain ND might follow with an enhanced update. Offering the 60fps, etc.

[Member-115369]

Originally Posted by Leonidas King

Anyways so...going by what Santa Monica Studio did with GoW (another GOTY winner). I'm almost certain ND might follow with an enhanced update. Offering the 60fps, etc.

Same. I don’t see it being a paid remaster like the first game got. JuT a free update that makes more use of the PS5’s power.

Will be curious to see if the MP they split out into its own game rather than including with TLOU2 is a paid release or a free to play standalone game with micro transactions.

[StarkRomanoff]

Yeah I'd say the GoW update is a pretty good indicator of the kind of update we could look for with TLOU2. I'm really looking forward to finishing up the GoW platinum on PS5 with the update but to be fair the game already ran very well as is, the 4K and 60fps is just icing.

Playing through Part 2 knowing we'll likely get an update at some point, I'm inadvertently keeping an eye out for what could be improved and I notice pop in loading more than anything. I'd love to see textures and pop in improved as well as 4K and, I'll finally admit, 60fps. Playing Part 1 with 60fps is real smooth but I'll have to see how 60 makes Part 2 look, if that's happening. Hopefully like other upgrades we'll have a performance and resolution setting so if 60 looks weird we can switch back to 30.

[Steelmaker]

I HOPE that's what they do. However I could easily see them going down the "Miles Morales" path where they put out a PS5 specific sku that comes bundled with Factions, while at the same time offering Factions as a separate sku (But not TLOU 2 PS5).

[Member-115369]

Yeah I think a difference this time around vs. say the Uncharted Collection or TLOU Remaster is the jump just isn't big enough to justify a paid upgrade release.

PS3/360 games needed a lot of work to improve textures etc. to really make them look good on 4KTVs. PS5/X1 games, especially ones that came out late in the generation after the PS4 Pro and X1X were out, were built around 4K and HDR already and the engines scalable to run on both those and the base consoles. Thus all that's really needed is some patches to take advantage of the extra power of the PS5/XSX to look even better.

Hard to justify charging $50 or whatever for a patch. I'm sure some will try and some point, but hope its rare and that we just continue to see things like the free upgrade patch GoW just got, the nice upgrades Gears 5 and Forza Horizon 4 got for XSX (probably the two most impressive looking games I've played so far, along with Demon's Souls) etc.

[Pi905]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

There's another saying that goes "the vocal minority doesn't speak for the masses." Despite the whiners on social media, their opinion does not reflect the majority of gamers who played and enjoyed this game for what it is.

Criticism was inevitable and ND knew this going in. Kudos to them and Sony for being unwavering with their vision of what they wanted this game to be, despite the potential backlash. We need more developers like them. And I would hardly consider this a "dumb idea" considering all of the critical and commercial success this game has been showered with.

I agree with everything you're saying here. The minority of people who hate on this game are very vocal about it, which is why they may seem to be a larger group than they are. 8 months later, and people (some of which who still haven't played it) are still making it their life's mission to let everyone know that they don't like it. If everyone who even somewhat enjoyed the game would do the same, the sound of the haters would be overtaken.

I also agree that it was the right move for Naughty Dog to tell the story they wanted to tell. Neil stated for years leading up to the release that not everyone would like it, so it's not like people weren't warned that it may not resonate with them. I think with this becoming the most awarded game of all time, that's proof enough for ND that their decision was worth it.

[Steelmaker]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

Yeah I think a difference this time around vs. say the Uncharted Collection or TLOU Remaster is the jump just isn't big enough to justify a paid upgrade release.

PS3/360 games needed a lot of work to improve textures etc. to really make them look good on 4KTVs. PS5/X1 games, especially ones that came out late in the generation after the PS4 Pro and X1X were out, were built around 4K and HDR already and the engines scalable to run on both those and the base consoles. Thus all that's really needed is some patches to take advantage of the extra power of the PS5/XSX to look even better.

Hard to justify charging $50 or whatever for a patch. I'm sure some will try and some point, but hope its rare and that we just continue to see things like the free upgrade patch GoW just got, the nice upgrades Gears 5 and Forza Horizon 4 got for XSX (probably the two most impressive looking games I've played so far, along with Demon's Souls) etc.

I don't know. Tell that to Insomniac who just charged you for a new Spiderman Ultimate Edition.

[Member-115369]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

I don't know. Tell that to Insomniac who just charged you for a new Spiderman Ultimate Edition.

True. Forgot about that one. I only have it as the Costco PS5 bundle came with the ultimate version of Miles Morales. Wouldn’t have bought it otherwise as I don’t know that I’ll replay that game and in general I’m just not paying for remasters of last gen games given how many are getting great free update patches.

With being back on Xbox and having Gamepass with a lot of games that fit my interests in there I’ll be way more picky on what games I spend money on. I have plenty to keep me busy a long time so I’ll only spend for things I want to play more than stuff I already have access to. Last gen remasters won’t meet that threshold.

Mass Effect will as it’s a generation old, the games needed some touching up and it’s a series I want to replay. Plus it’s a solid deal for three remasters games for the price. Though part of me is tempted to wait as I’m sure it will hit Gamepass eventually since EA Access was merged in, so it will depend on how in the mood I am to play them in May/what else I’m playing at the time.

[Member-115369]

Most game engines these aren’t scaleable and can render at different resolutions and go higher on more powerful hardware. PC games in particular have a wide range of resolution options depending on how powerful your rig is.

The only tone it’s an issue is if textures used are low quality and look worse at higher resolution. TLOU2 all ready looks great so I’d think they could up resolution with a smaller update vs having a major remake task. Though really just getting it to 60FPS is the main thing. Most decent 4K TVs upscale well these days anyway.

In any case, I’m firm on not paying for any remasters of PS4/Xbox One games this generation. They look fine already and there’s few I’d want to replay anytime soon anyway.

[StarkRomanoff]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

God of War and Days Gone were both already 4K on PS4 Pro; the patches just unlocked the frame rate to make them 60 fps when played on PS5.

The Last of Us Part II is rendered at 1440p. That can't be improved with a patch. They could offer a PS5 version as a free upgrade but they can't simply "unlock" the PS4 version like they did with God of War and Days Gone.

Sony has already shown that they are willing to make remasters with the release of Spider-Man Remastered so I expect that The Last of Us Part II will be remastered as well. I just hope that it is released on disc (unlike Spider-Man).

I don’t have a PS4 Pro so I was going from PS4 slim to PS5. These are all improvements for me.

There isn’t a whole lot in Part 2 to remaster so I don’t see that coming any time soon. The jump from PS4 to 5 isn’t as large as the PS3 to 4.

[Vincanws]

TLOU 2 is arguably the most impressive game on PS4 visually, but the graphics could definitely be improved with ray traced shadows, lighting and /or reflections. And of course the 60fps and dynamic variable 4K as opposed locking 1440p. I don’t want ND to rest on their laurels. TLOU2 looks great, but can they improve it more with a PS5 upgrade? That I’d like to see.

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by Pi905

I agree with everything you're saying here. The minority of people who hate on this game are very vocal about it, which is why they may seem to be a larger group than they are. 8 months later, and people (some of which who still haven't played it) are still making it their life's mission to let everyone know that they don't like it. If everyone who even somewhat enjoyed the game would do the same, the sound of the haters would be overtaken.

I also agree that it was the right move for Naughty Dog to tell the story they wanted to tell. Neil stated for years leading up to the release that not everyone would like it, so it's not like people weren't warned that it may not resonate with them. I think with this becoming the most awarded game of all time, that's proof enough for ND that their decision was worth it.

None of that is based on actual data in terms of a percentage of people who enjoy TLoU2 relative to TLoU. It's pure projection based on your personal opinion with no numbers backing it up. Awards amount to meaningless glad-handing.

TLoU had 44,500,000 players as of November 19, 2020 while TLoU2 had less than one-sixth that at 7,200,000. TLOU has about 40,000 more new players each month than the sequel, according to the most recent numbers from Gamestat. None of that suggests to me that people love the story of TLOU2 or love having Joel replaced with Abby in the gameplay.

[Pi905]

Originally Posted by Gremal

None of that is based on actual data in terms of a percentage of people who enjoy TLoU2 relative to TLoU. It's pure projection based on your personal opinion with no numbers backing it up. Awards amount to meaningless glad-handing.

TLoU had 44,500,000 players as of November 19, 2020 while TLoU2 had less than one-sixth that at 7,200,000. TLOU has about 40,000 more new players each month than the sequel, according to the most recent numbers from Gamestat. None of that suggests to me that people love the story of TLOU2 or love having Joel replaced with Abby in the gameplay.

You're definitely in denial about people liking this game and only want to accept facts that will help feed your negative opinion. The Last of Us: Part II has the most Game of the Year awards (some of which were player voted), ever, and to say that amounts to nothing is both ridiculous and undermines literally every award in every facet. Might as well toss Olympic Golds and Purple Hearts since they don't matter either. Stark was right, talking to you is a waste of time.

[Gremal]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

None of that data accounts for anyone playing offline and The Last of Us Part 2 doesn't have any multiplayer modes. The numbers could be substantially higher.

Maybe. But for all you know, far more people play TLOU offline than TLOU2.

In any case none of us have solid evidence one way or another. You have absolutely no proof that the majority of players disliked the story and we have absolutely no proof that the majority of players liked the story. It's all speculation on both sides based largely on our own personal opinions.

I'm not speculating about anything. I'm commenting on the first game being hugely popular and creating certain expectations about a sequel based on Joel being the main character.

I'm also taking issue with the decisions being about ART. The female base in gaming is in the mid-30% range. Sony and Naughty Dog knew they'd get all the males back for TLOU2 on the strength of the first game, and they seemed to make a calculated effort to get more females into gaming by forcing gameplay into purely female characters. Thus, it's not about ART but about MARKETING.

[DragonOfTheBlackPool]

Originally Posted by Pi905

You're definitely in denial about people liking this game and only want to accept facts that will help feed your negative opinion. The Last of Us: Part II has the most Game of the Year awards (some of which were player voted), ever, and to say that amounts to nothing is both ridiculous and undermines literally every award in every facet. Might as well toss Olympic Golds and Purple Hearts since they don't matter either. Stark was right, talking to you is a waste of time.

What's ridiculous is you comparing a game award to an Olympic Gold medal, and even worse, a Purple Heart.