Onkyo SR606 5.1 playback on 7.1 system

[statikcat]

Hi everyone. I finally got my 7.1 upgrades and have everything connected. I am using my PS3 as my BD player. Any 7.1 movie (Hellboy) plays back great in 7.1. However, the problem is on a 5.1 track the surround rears are not doing anything! Isn't my receiver supposed to take all rear information in 5.1 and spread it to the extra speakers in a 7.1 config? I looked all over my Onkyo docs and I can't find anything on this.

If the receiver can't do this .. are there others that can? I am upgrading to a Yamaha 3800 in about 2 weeks. Aside from just having dead speakers this messes up my whole setup because if my surround rears are dead in a 5.1 track then my surrounds are coming directly from my sides because 7.1 has a different speaker setup than 5.1.

Ack! If anyone can help I would much appreciate it!

[JJ]

Isn't there a Matrixing option? Check the Listening options for processing in pages 57-60 of the manual.

Use the Movie/TV button to sort through the available options. If you are using PCM, which with your PS3 you should be, sort through the available processing options until you get sound out of your rear two. Try Neo:6 and PL II. But there are others.

[statikcat]

Wow that worked perfectly. I was thinking a lot of those other modes were for matrixing all channels. I did not realize some were just for the backs. It kinda threw me off because even if I play a cd it plays back on all 5 speakers so I figured it would go out to 7 when I enabled them in the receiver. You would think if you have surround rears enabled it would just spread lesser channels for you. Oh well anyway thanks!

[JJ]

No probs. Enjoy!

...up, up, and away!

[Trix]

Maybe this is a bad place to ask it, and I in no way am trying to berate the OP, but, I've been wondering something for a while.

It takes a whopping 2.4 seconds to chastize someone on this site about stretching or cropping movies out of their OAR, but never, ever, have I come across any complaints about listening to material in its original sound mix. The only exception I'd like to point out is the valid complaints concerning older movies not retaining their mono tracks, and I agree that older mono tracks should not necessarily be re-encoded into 5.1.

Arguably, the concept is the same; instead of "I bought a 50" TV and I want to watch all 50" of it!", we hear "I have 7 speakers and I want to hear sound out of all of them!". But, what if you weren't meant to be hearing out of all 5 speakers? Sure, you're only matrixing the surrounds to the surround rears as well, essentially hearing the same thing out of both speakers, but, this isn't how it was encoded or envisioned, so, why?

Again, I'm not trying to berate the OP, or anyone, it was just a question that I've been wondering for a long time, and I was hoping to finally be put in my place.

[Audiophile_At_Birth]

Originally Posted by Trix

Maybe this is a bad place to ask it, and I in no way am trying to berate the OP, but, I've been wondering something for a while.

It takes a whopping 2.4 seconds to chastize someone on this site about stretching or cropping movies out of their OAR, but never, ever, have I come across any complaints about listening to material in its original sound mix. The only exception I'd like to point out is the valid complaints concerning older movies not retaining their mono tracks, and I agree that older mono tracks should not necessarily be re-encoded into 5.1.

Arguably, the concept is the same; instead of "I bought a 50" TV and I want to watch all 50" of it!", we hear "I have 7 speakers and I want to hear sound out of all of them!". But, what if you weren't meant to be hearing out of all 5 speakers? Sure, you're only matrixing the surrounds to the surround rears as well, essentially hearing the same thing out of both speakers, but, this isn't how it was encoded or envisioned, so, why?

Again, I'm not trying to berate the OP, or anyone, it was just a question that I've been wondering for a long time, and I was hoping to finally be put in my place.

Why would someone want to matrix 5 channels to 7? My only guess is to add to a broader atmospheric sense from the surrounds. It's the reason why I would do it, and then again, I don't have a 7 channel setup.

[crackinhedz]

Originally Posted by Trix

I was hoping to finally be put in my place.

Because we feel like it!


...seriously though, when I watch a football game...I like to hear the crowd from all my speakers.

As for 5.1 movies, usually the surrounds are more for atmospheric pleasure...it does not ruin or degrade the experience as much as watching a 'stretched' or 'zoomed' image does...if at all.

When you listen to a 7.1 track, audio that was intended for the rear is only played through the rear so there is no problem there either.



If anything, most of the time...your listening environment is not properly acoustically treated/established, so that would be priority number one before ANYTHING else if you truly want the best environment to accurately reproduce the creators vision on the mix.

[crackinhedz]

As for the topic in general, im actually impressed Onkyo included Matrixing on their lower end models.

In the past, they would not matrix a PCM signal, only bitstream.

[statikcat]

Originally Posted by Trix

Maybe this is a bad place to ask it, and I in no way am trying to berate the OP, but, I've been wondering something for a while.

It takes a whopping 2.4 seconds to chastize someone on this site about stretching or cropping movies out of their OAR, but never, ever, have I come across any complaints about listening to material in its original sound mix. The only exception I'd like to point out is the valid complaints concerning older movies not retaining their mono tracks, and I agree that older mono tracks should not necessarily be re-encoded into 5.1.

Arguably, the concept is the same; instead of "I bought a 50" TV and I want to watch all 50" of it!", we hear "I have 7 speakers and I want to hear sound out of all of them!". But, what if you weren't meant to be hearing out of all 5 speakers? Sure, you're only matrixing the surrounds to the surround rears as well, essentially hearing the same thing out of both speakers, but, this isn't how it was encoded or envisioned, so, why?

I understand but let me explain a few things.

5.1 or 7.1 has nothing to do with a number of speakers.. but a number of channels. How many speakers does a movie theater have?

I touched on this briefly above but I will explain further as this is the main reason for my post. In a 5.1 setup the surrounds are placed behind you. In a 7.1 the surrounds are placed directly to your left and right while the surround rears are placed behind you. Now, without matrixing 5.1 the sound that is intended to come from behind you is now suddenly beside you. If you spread that signal to your surround rears the result makes the rear signal sound like it is behind you again. This gives you a more realistic 5.1 sound with a 7.1 setup.

I can see where you are coming from but completely disagree based on the above.

[Trix]

Originally Posted by statikcat

I understand but let me explain a few things.

5.1 or 7.1 has nothing to do with a number of speakers.. but a number of channels. How many speakers does a movie theater have?

I touched on this briefly above but I will explain further as this is the main reason for my post. In a 5.1 setup the surrounds are placed behind you. In a 7.1 the surrounds are placed directly to your left and right while the surround rears are placed behind you. Now, without matrixing 5.1 the sound that is intended to come from behind you is now suddenly beside you. If you spread that signal to your surround rears the result makes the rear signal sound like it is behind you again. This gives you a more realistic 5.1 sound with a 7.1 setup.

I can see where you are coming from but completely disagree based on the above.

See, I would argue this as being bad speaker placement. From the diagrams on the THX website, the only thing that changes from a 5.1 to a 7.1 configuration is the addition of the two rear channels; the surrounds are not moved any closer to the front. Now granted, they use bi/dipole speakers it seems for their setup, but still, the placement of the surrounds is at the same place. I would agree that a typical 5.1 set-up would have the speakers further back, but it may seem that that's not how it's intended.

I guess, as was pointed out, that it is a matter of personal preference, and of filling the soundfield more than a matter of "wanting to use everything you have". Based on these observations from you all, I retract the analogy I made to the streching/zooming to fill a TV screen. Regardless, I also suffer from non-7.1-ness, so perhaps someday I will do some experimenting of my own, and decide from there!

[statikcat]

Well most of the diagrams I have seen of 7.1 show the surrounds should be 90-110 degrees while 5.1 they are typically a little farther back. I suppose I could meet in the middle somewhere but having 4 speakers play surrounds in 5.1 sounds a lot better in my opinion. Like I said theaters are the same way

[un4gvn94538]

Originally Posted by statikcat

Well most of the diagrams I have seen of 7.1 show the surrounds should be 90-110 degrees while 5.1 they are typically a little farther back. I suppose I could meet in the middle somewhere but having 4 speakers play surrounds in 5.1 sounds a lot better in my opinion. Like I said theaters are the same way

dolby.com has good diagrams of this. 5.1 vs. 7.1

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/home_e...ide/index.html

[statikcat]

Originally Posted by un4gvn94538

dolby.com has good diagrams of this. 5.1 vs. 7.1

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/home_e...ide/index.html

And that completely proves my point. This diagram shows in 5.1 the surrounds are 100-110 degrees which is behind you. In the 7.1 diagram it shows the surrounds are 90-100 which is directly to your left and right at 90 and slightly behind at 100. Therefore if you play 5.1 on a 7.1 setup your surrounds will be playing upwards of 20 degrees off (110-90 degrees)..

My point is 5.1 and 7.1 speaker placement can be acceptably different in the surrounds. So for me by matrixing my back 2 speakers on each side it makes the sound appear to come from behind you again instead of just besides you.. because my surrounds are at 90 degrees which shows normal by all 7.1 diagrams.

Now yes I could just put the surrounds at 100 degrees and it would match both 5.1 and 7.1. That may be ideal but with my room it is a bit of an issue. I tried it both ways and it sounds a bit better the way I am doing it now. I still see nothing technically wrong with doing it this way either.

[un4gvn94538]

Originally Posted by statikcat

And that completely proves my point. This diagram shows in 5.1 the surrounds are 100-110 degrees which is behind you. In the 7.1 diagram it shows the surrounds are 90-100 which is directly to your left and right at 90 and slightly behind at 100. Therefore if you play 5.1 on a 7.1 setup your surrounds will be playing upwards of 20 degrees off (110-90 degrees)..

My point is 5.1 and 7.1 speaker placement can be acceptably different in the surrounds. So for me by matrixing my back 2 speakers on each side it makes the sound appear to come from behind you again instead of just besides you.. because my surrounds are at 90 degrees which shows normal by all 7.1 diagrams.

maybe, maybe not. http://www.dts.com/Support/Speaker_Options.aspx

dts's site shows 5.1 standard config. with the surrounds directly on the sides. same with the 7.1 standard config. although they do show other configs. maybe its just a user preference. im not debating this issue, just thought id share.

[statikcat]

Originally Posted by un4gvn94538

maybe, maybe not. http://www.dts.com/Support/Speaker_Options.aspx

dts's site shows 5.1 standard config. with the surrounds directly on the sides. same with the 7.1 standard config. although they do show other configs. maybe its just a user preference. im not debating this issue, just thought id share.

Yeah all diagrams are a little different. I just was referencing the Dolby one linked above. Most 5.1 diagrams I have seen do not strictly stick your surrounds at a 90 degree angle. Ultimately it is up for interpretation and some allowance is given to fit your room. It seems with different room sizes and shapes the back speakers are always the troubling ones.